Woke up and plant is looking horrible any help please

Roger A. Shrubber said:

5.8 is kind of low for coco, i was having calcium and magnesium problems running it that low. did some reading, others were running around 6.1. i tried it and the problems i was having cleared up, been sticking around there since, no problems since

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Tim1987 said:

Me too. I do feed at 5.8 though.
But by my next feed its kreeping to just over 6.
Ive actually, ironically found a ph stake, to be pretty damn reliable in coir. If i leave it in the pot.
I use the drops for runoff. My runoff is always clear.
Brown runoff in coco, ive found, is no good.

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Olive Drab Green said:

Depends on the color and type of your nutrients, and what kind of brown you’re taking about.

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Tim1987 said:

Yes true.
But if you're going in clear, and coming out brown, its a problem.
Ive found in that case, its decomposing coir, leeching salts.
In these cases, i havn't been able to get my ph down.
I do see your point though. Definitely a pen if you dont have clear feed.

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Olive Drab Green said:

Ahhhh, I’m in organics. I don’t worry about salts, because my nutrients aren’t chelated. The bacteria and fungi colonizing my medium and roots keep an equilibrium for me, to prevent infection and maximize health. That’s why they call them inoculants.

My medium is based of coco, sphagnum, pumice, and perlite, with organic amendments and raw, undiluted organic liquid nutrients to supplement. My medium, personally, has never gone rancid that I have noticed, since I got the first two bags of Roots Formula 707 in 2016.

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Tim1987 said:

Thats wicked man,
I havn't had much luck with organics indoors, if you know what i mean lol. Its cold here too. The pests love my tent when its cold, if im not sterile.

Ive done half peat moss, to coir before. That was mad. Kept me at 6, even when dry.
Ive always been meaning to try it again, with some chunky perlite. But coir's just so damn cheap.

Organics must be sweet though. Especially towards the finish line?

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Littlebirdie said:

Yea I guess Im just going to mix some nutes up at a good ph and just feed her and see what happpens.

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Littlebirdie said:

Pulled the plug on this one quite literally. I just wanted to learn from it. Still confused about what happened to her. She stayed green but started drying up and getting real papery. When pulling her out I noticed that the coco was so so so wet, it was muddy which is weird for coco/perlite in an air pot. People say you cant over water coco, I would disagree. I believe she caught a touch of root rot. The roots were pretty brown and had a bad mildew smell. The main stem was kind of weird too. Here are some pics, I cut her apart and dissected her so I could understand more maybe.

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xtsho said:

You can definitely over water coco. That plant was not very big and the root structure was not very developed. I let the coco dry out somewhat in between waterings until the plants get bigger. The roots grow better in damp coco than soaking wet coco. That plant looks like it was drowning. This is one of the reasons why it drive me crazy every time someone recommends to flush. It's also another reason I am against trying to adjust PH based off of runoff. Dumping a bunch of PH'd water to get the runoff to match what you put in only saturates the grow medium drowning the plant as well. I never check runoff. While I'm at it, another suggestion that people always make is "add some calmag". Why? Flushing and calmag are not the holy grail of solving plant problems.

I grow in 100% coco. I stopped adding perlite a long time ago because it's not necessary. I typically transplant into three gallon fabric pots of prepared coco when the plants are about 10 - 12 inches tall or they are starting to get root bound in the small nursery pots I use. I don't water until the coco is dry on top and only damp throughout the medium. When I start to see roots poking through the sides of the fabric is when I start watering till slight runoff. I don't water everyday but let the coco dry till damp again before watering. The notion that you have to water coco till runoff is not true. If it was I wouldn't have had some of the best grows in coco using blumats that merely keep the coco damp and there is no runoff. There is nothing wrong with watering till runoff but you don't need to do it everyday when the plants are small. When they are bigger, flowering, and need more then water till runoff everyday. Until then you can drown a smaller plant with an underdeveloped root structure.

Root rot in coco and soil is usually caused by too wet of a medium. I go back to the statement you made "I flushed 30 gallons of 5.8 water through the plant. " That was the final blow to the plant. Instead of chasing PH the thing to do would have been to let the coco dry out.

Sorry for the rant but I read so much incorrect advice on this website it drives me crazy. It seems like 90% of the advice on this site is flushing, check the PH runoff, or add calmag. None are typically the right solution. I've been growing for years. I use cheap powdered nutes, don't trim a single leaf, and leave the plants alone. Chasing some deficiency over every little spot on a leaf based on that overused deficiency chart is where most people start having problems. Instead of dumping more stuff on to fix a supposed deficiency the better course of action is to feed less and leave the plant alone. It's a weed. It can recover from the root cause of the majority of issues which is over fertilization due to following some ridiculous feeding chart from overpriced nutrient companies that have you mixing a dozen or more bottles of diluted powdered nutes. The same things I use for 1/10th the price. I know people will disagree with me and discount what I say because they believe they need those expensive additives. But who told them they needed them? Someone educated in plant science or someone with a degree in marketing trying to make as much profit as they can for the company they work for. A fancy label on a spiffy bottle, wild claims with no science to back them up. All the while growers are posting on websites because they are having problems with their grow and posting pictures of burned up plants wondering whats wrong.

My grows speak for themselves and are proof that you don't need any snake oil being sold by slick marketing teams.

Guess I got off track with this post but I feel better getting that off my chest.

To the OP, I hope your next grow is successful and that you learned enough from this experience not to make the same mistakes in the future.

Good luck.

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Tim1987 said:

While i agree with nearly all of this. There is actually someone right now. In the problems section, who's feeding 300ppm. Runoff is reading 1800ppm!!!
What does this tell you?
Especially for a beginner. Metres and charts are essential.
Not recommending a beginner, to use them as a guide, imho, is the wrong advice.
The person having the problem aint a newb either. If he didnt check his runoff, he'd still be chasing his tail.
Metres and a chart, have helped countless times, when i was starting in the trade, and had to fix someones front garden, or backyard they'd fucked.
Gardens are big money, and you dont want to ruin them more. Especially an already frustrated, wifes garden, who you dont know. You'll get sued.


Im sorry about the news @Littlebirdie
If your roots were salty, it restricts water uptake. They could be sitting in a puddle, and still be thirsty.
If your roots were just sitting there, in a hot, damp mix, rot will happen for sure.
It really is very hard to overwater coco, with the right sized pot.
Good coir can hold up to 30% air, when completely saturated. It really is magic stuff, imho.
I really recommend the CANNA article i posted. I swear that chart is a god send too.
Imho you'd be a fool, not to have one around for a rainy day.

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xtsho said:

I guess I went on a rant didn't I. Oh well.

What does feeding 300 ppm and getting 1800 ppm runoff tell me? It depends. If it's soil not that much. I made some super soil recently using promix HP and about thirteen organic amendments. Just for kicks I just ran some 120 PPM, 6.5 PH'd tap water through a pot of it. The runoff measured 6.9 PH and 1925 PPM. The plants are doing just fine in it. When you run a bunch of water through soil you're pulling the amendments out of it not the peat and perlite essentially concentrating those amendments in the runoff. At least that's how I interpret it. Regardless, the plants are the final judge.

As for the chart. I think it's misused because most people use it as a guide to add more stuff when the problem is already too much stuff. People see what looks like on the chart as a deficiency so they dump more of what that alleged deficiency is on their plants. Usually the problem is they have been feeding too much and they have created a very hostile environment in their medium for the plant. At that point less is better but everyone is so sure based on that chart that they need to add something instead of reducing they increase thus exasperating the problem.

Most nutrient charts have people feeding more than they need to. Combine that with some grow mediums that contain everything the plant needs for weeks and you end up with overkill. There is no reason at all to be feeding anything at week two in quality soil. When someone see's a spot on a leaf and they ask what's wrong the first answers are add calmag or flush. Plant's can have blemishes or temporary issues just like we can get a cold. It just runs it's course and resolves itself. Jumping to fix something by adding something more is not always the best thing to do.

I have also come to the conclusion that people are not always forthcoming with what they have actually done during their grow. All we see is a picture of a plant with problems. Rarely do we hear how they thought they were going to speed up everything by dumping a bunch of stuff on their plants. The entire story is rarely told. When people do something they know they shouldn't have it's hard for them to admit it. I took a couple terms of psychology. I'm not an expert but I know enough to know that you rarely get the full story. My years working in IT has been the same. Computer doesn't work. I ask what did you do. They say "I didn't do anything". I look at the computer and find all kinds of crap software installed, malware, etc... I'm sure glad I don't do tech support anymore. But it's the same thing with growing cannabis. You ask "What did you do?" They say nothing but in reality they doubled the dose of nutrients thinking more is better.

I think we agree on most things related to growing cannabis. A few disagreements on a few aspects is nothing. Disagreements followed by civil discussion is good and sometimes everyone learns something in the end. Don't think I don't change my views when presented with a rational argument. If I've been doing things wrong or someone has a better way I'm open to changing my ways.

Cheers
and
Happy growing.

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Littlebirdie said:

Thanks for the help everyone! I appreciate it! Also any tips with soil? I just bought some ocean forest. What should I ph my water to for this new grow? Can I continue to use my GH nutes later in the grow or not?

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Tim1987 said:

Id go something a little softer man. OF, apparently is pretty hot. Even plain potting mix, generally, is too strong.
Id get some seedling mix. Then transplant.
No nutes, until start of bloom. OF, will have pleanty to veg.
If you're concerned about your water, you can use citric acid to bring it down. They make special ph up and down for soil.
Generally imho. If your in good soil, you dont need to ph.
Good luck in the new grow bird.

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