Yesterday's Mass Shooting.

They just tell the pollsters that they don't like the situation with guns, their votes tell the truth though, votes are actions, and they don't lie, answers to polls clearly don't reflect reality. If they did, it would mean a rapid shift in public opinion, so no matter what they say about gun control, they will still continue to vote for republicans, and nothing will change.

For civil warriors sacrifices have to be made for freedom and the 2nd and these are the sacrifices. Besides voting for a democrat is unthinkable because they eat babies for lunch and run massive pedophile rings that only President Trump can end! Americans need guns because the black people in the big cities are running wild and if one shows up at your door, stand your ground and shoot first, let God sort them out. First, they want to take yer stuff and then they want to take over and they are pouring across the southern border in large numbers to do just that! There will be yet another Caravan approaching the southern border in lockstep with the election, only to disappear the day after.

America has to deal with large numbers of frightened racist morons, driven into a frenzy of fear by rightwing media who lies to them and manipulates them for profit and power. So, we will see in the next election how the polls on guns match up with the election results and what the priorities of the voting public will be on election day, after rightwing media gets them all jacked up over some non-issue. According to the polling, it looks like focusing hatred upon the LBGTQ community should pay off, particularly on the trans community. Can it take the heat off regulating guns? We will see.

No, they don't deserve better, the Brits are right, the people get the government they deserve and that is exactly what is happening in America. If they want a different future, then elect a different government, or just STFU and put up with it, because everybody else is sick of it and the endless excuses. The polls are meaningless bullshit unless they are reflected in the election results and there are elections every 2 years in America, so we won't have long to wait. Even having your democracy stolen by a little amount causes tremendous damage and complete control by a minority of radicals and a complete disempowerment of the majority. Whether it is stolen by gerrymandering or a senate that represents geography and not people or a president not elected by a majority, the result is the same.

Trump might have gotten 8 million votes less than Biden, but he only lost the election by a few thousand votes in 3 critical states and if it wasn't for killing so many Americans (mostly his potential voters) with covid incompetence, he would still be president of whatever would be left of America. So, solving America's national gun problem by the ballot will be very difficult, but not impossible, ya just need to piss off more people, I guess.

DIY-HP-LED said:

No, they don't deserve better, the Brits are right, the people get the government they deserve and that is exactly what is happening in America. If they want a different future, then elect a different government, or just STFU and put up with it, because everybody else is sick of it and the endless excuses. The polls are meaningless bullshit unless they are reflected in the election results and there are elections every 2 years in America, so we won't have long to wait. Even having your democracy stolen by a little amount causes tremendous damage and complete control by a minority of radicals and a complete disempowerment of the majority. Whether it is stolen by gerrymandering or a senate that represents geography and not people or a president not elected by a majority, the result is the same.

Trump might have gotten 8 million votes less than Biden, but he only lost the election by a few thousand votes in 3 critical states and if it wasn't for killing so many Americans (mostly his potential voters) with covid incompetence, he would still be president of whatever would be left of America. So, solving America's national gun problem by the ballot will be very difficult, but not impossible, ya just need to piss off more people, I guess.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655230015863156741

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this suffers from the “will of the people” fallacy. No such thing except as a suspicious rhetorical device.

cannabineer said:

this suffers from the “will of the people” fallacy. No such thing except as a suspicious rhetorical device.

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It is a quote and truism.

“The government you elect is the government you deserve.”

― Thomas Jefferson

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9936224-the-government-you-elect-is-the-government-you-deserve

DIY-HP-LED said:

It is a quote and truism.

“The government you elect is the government you deserve.”

― Thomas Jefferson

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9936224-the-government-you-elect-is-the-government-you-deserve

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quote yes; truism no, because it presupposes an absence of manipulation of the individual outlooks involved. With all you’ve said about our media, it is curious that you would neglect the contradiction.

Texas is like granny’s snatch, everybody knows its down there but nobody wants to go there.

cannabineer said:

this suffers from the “will of the people” fallacy. No such thing except as a suspicious rhetorical device.

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Biden won with 4.5% of the popular vote, not remarkable, but consider who he was running against? One of the most disgusting and repellant individuals to ever walk the face of the earth an obvious psycho and idiot who had 4 years of incompetence and failure behind him. Who just got out of the hospital after nearly killing himself with covid and hundreds of thousands of Americans with malicious incompetence and dereliction of duty. Biden won the electoral college by about 36,000 votes in total over a few states.

What kind of government do such people deserve? Hitler's party only got 33% of the vote in Germany in 1933 and he was far more electable and presentable than Trump in 2020 FFS who got 46.8%. This was after humiliating America on the world stage for four years, getting impeached once, betraying allies and sucking Putin's ass publicly. Oh yeah, don't forget the Clorox an UV dildo's either and the constant churn of WH officials who left in disgust and offered dire warnings about him.

So, tell me, what kind of government do such people deserve, for nations have been destroyed for lessor errors of judgement and much less malice towards their fellow citizens.

cannabineer said:

quote yes; truism no, because it presupposes an absence of manipulation of the individual outlooks involved. With all you’ve said about our media, it is curious that you would neglect the contradiction.

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They allowed these conditions to arise and can't whine about the inevitable results. Other countries are subjected to the same forces as America and even though its democracy is flawed, it is not flawed enough to produce such a horrific result. Part of the solution is to get rid of foxnews and not be squeamish about the nonexistent 1st amendment rights of an entertainment broadcaster. You can't get rid of the current incarnation of the GOP unless you get rid of foxnews and others that promote hatred, social division and disinformation. You allow a propaganda network for one political party and POV FFS and it is clearly a violation of basic principles that has been allowed to persist for decades and gives the GOP billions in free advertising and a platform for the vilest bullshit imaginable, they get to try out different hate formulas until the settle on just the right one. You let these pricks murder citizens with disinformation and making their viewers so fearful they shoot people who ring their doorbell and they fuel the sale of even more guns in America

If the democrats win kill the fox and tell the whinners to go fuck themselves while making such an abomination impossible as a business model. I and others are trying to get these assholes removed from cable in Canada and they were banned for a long time, until we had a conservative government and conservatives want to keep them on cable here too, fuck them.

DIY-HP-LED said:

No, they don't deserve better, the Brits are right, the people get the government they deserve and that is exactly what is happening in America. If they want a different future, then elect a different government, or just STFU and put up with it, because everybody else is sick of it and the endless excuses. The polls are meaningless bullshit unless they are reflected in the election results and there are elections every 2 years in America, so we won't have long to wait. Even having your democracy stolen by a little amount causes tremendous damage and complete control by a minority of radicals and a complete disempowerment of the majority. Whether it is stolen by gerrymandering or a senate that represents geography and not people or a president not elected by a majority, the result is the same.

Trump might have gotten 8 million votes less than Biden, but he only lost the election by a few thousand votes in 3 critical states and if it wasn't for killing so many Americans (mostly his potential voters) with covid incompetence, he would still be president of whatever would be left of America. So, solving America's national gun problem by the ballot will be very difficult, but not impossible, ya just need to piss off more people, I guess.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655230015863156741

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Circular argument and false. Your statement hinges on the false belief that a democracy means the government at that moment in time represents the will of the people at the same moment. Reality: Democracies like ours lag popular will and popular will is not a monolithic thing. So it's quite possible to have a government that represents the will of the people from the past while the people of the present are actively working for change, oftentimes we work against each other. So, no. We don't have the government we deserve, we just have the government we have.

History is a stochastic process, where what follows depends on what has happened and outcomes are a probabilistic event that can't be predicted with certainty. So, no. Just like the people of the UK who don't deserve rule by ham-handed Tories, the people of Texas don't deserve its idiotic governor or legislature. Nor do I deserve Matt Gaetz.

Fogdog said:

Circular argument and false. Your statement hinges on the false belief that a democracy means the government at that moment in time represents the will of the people at the same moment. Reality: Democracies like ours lag popular will and popular will is not a monolithic thing. So it's quite possible to have a government that represents the will of the people from the past while the people of the present are actively working for change, oftentimes we work against each other. So, no. We don't have the government we deserve, we just have the government we have.

History is a stochastic process, where what follows depends on what has happened and outcomes are a probabilistic event that can't be predicted with certainty. So, no. Just like the people of the UK who don't deserve rule by ham-handed Tories, the people of Texas don't deserve its idiotic governor or legislature. Nor do I deserve Matt Gaetz.

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Whether you or any other member of the minority deserve something or not, is up to the majority, hopefully constrained by the constitution and courts. There are elections every two years in America, and we will soon see if the polling on guns is reflected in the elections. There may indeed be a big change in public sentiment, but it is my guess that other things will be more important than guns come election day. As for the argument being circular, take it up with Jefferson and the French political philosophers before him. It cuts to the heart of individual responsibility and life is not fair, many people get dealt a fate they do not deserve. As for lies and deceiving the public, it has always been so and if you think a small group of determined people can't change the world, tell me when it has been otherwise? Democracy or not.

DIY-HP-LED said:

I'm saying that in a democratic country the people get the government they deserve and that is a reflection of themselves, warts and all and that includes my own government and the one in Russia too, they had their chance and blew it. America almost did too with Trump and is still not out of the woods. The treatment of natives and black people in Canada and America are a reflection of the flaws of the people and those flaws are expressed as laws, where the constitution allows it and often where it does not. Are the people who vote for Trump and MTG morally flawed or stupid? The natives and blacks never had the vote until recently and were victims of citizens not citizens in a full sense, both groups only got the right to vote in the 1960's and in America it is why the voting rights act was passed 100 years after the end of the civil war.

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You can blame people for being stupid, although it achieves nothing, but you can't blame them for being lied to.
You can't treat everyone equally, because people aren't equal in all ways. Some are just not very intelligent, some have been damaged in various ways and are trying to deal with that, some are just fucking mean...
If everyone was presented with a fair honest set of facts, and a plainly worded plan from each party, and they still chose to elect horse's asses, then they would be getting what they deserved...but that isn't what they're presented with. They're bombarded with lies, and half truths, they're persuaded with statements designed to feed their fears and biases. You know how a fucking pig taint like trump got elected? He fed a bunch of dissatisfied people lies that they wanted to believe. He picked the stupidest people in the country to make his appeals to, and they heard him, because other people discounted them as idiots...and they were right, they are idiots, but they're idiots who have a vote, and they were wooed, successfully, by a highly experienced con artist. He convinced career politicians (looking at you, mcturkeyneck) that he would be an easily manipulated fool, and then he turned into mcconnellstein's monster.
We have a mountain of work to do, and the vermin are entrenched. We Will have the government we deserve, but it may take a decade or two...i may even live to see it.

A million American's didn't deserve to die from covid, but America elected Donald Trump and could not escape its fate, or even want to after all that transpired during the fiasco of his presidency. He lost the popular vote by 3 million but won the electoral college by the same margin as Biden. Did anybody deserve Donald?

If you put a loaded gun to your forehead and pulled the trigger, do you deserve to die? Sure, you would be depressed, but you would still end up blowing your brains out. It is not even a moral question, but one of an inevitable result of one's actions or lack thereof.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

You can blame people for being stupid, although it achieves nothing, but you can't blame them for being lied to.
You can't treat everyone equally, because people aren't equal in all ways. Some are just not very intelligent, some have been damaged in various ways and are trying to deal with that, some are just fucking mean...
If everyone was presented with a fair honest set of facts, and a plainly worded plan from each party, and they still chose to elect horse's asses, then they would be getting what they deserved...but that isn't what they're presented with. They're bombarded with lies, and half truths, they're persuaded with statements designed to feed their fears and biases. You know how a fucking pig taint like trump got elected? He fed a bunch of dissatisfied people lies that they wanted to believe. He picked the stupidest people in the country to make his appeals to, and they heard him, because other people discounted them as idiots...and they were right, they are idiots, but they're idiots who have a vote, and they were wooed, successfully, by a highly experienced con artist. He convinced career politicians (looking at you, mcturkeyneck) that he would be an easily manipulated fool, and then he turned into mcconnellstein's monster.
We have a mountain of work to do, and the vermin are entrenched. We Will have the government we deserve, but it may take a decade or two...i may even live to see it.

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Roger I'm not saying Americans are any worse than Canadians, it's just that we are blessed with a simpler form of government that can't easily be derailed by a minority as it can in America. Part of the problem in America is a lack of actual democracy and minority rule, and this helps to absolve the people of more responsibly than it would in Canada. However, even with direct democracy and referendums people can still fuck up, if driven to it by corrupt media as they were in the UK over Brexit, that was driven in large part by Rupert Murdoch. America is particularly vulnerable to Murdoch because of history and the form of government, it's why foxnews was actually making policy for the Trump administration in no time flat and there was a revolving door between foxnews and the Trump administration.

It is one of the reasons I rail against foxnews and want them out of my country after they slipped in and I have written here about the damage they do to the nation and people. In Canada the effect was on covid policy and that was about it, in America, it brought you to this sorry state of 197 mass murders in 127 days this year and Donald Trump as your wannabe King, who nearly succeeded, with a low IQ and an atrocious personality and background. Foxnews spent a couple of decades destroying the reputation of Hillary Clinton and making Trump an acceptable candidate.

Not a shooting, but looks like it's probably the next worse thing...
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/breaking-seven-dead-others-reported-wounded-after-car-struck-crowd-of-pedestrians-near-migrant-shelter-in-texas/

Can't say for sure if it was intentional or not at this point, but it sure looks like it. There would have to be some massively extenuating circumstances for the driver not to be guilty of multiple murders...

Roger A. Shrubber said:

Not a shooting, but looks like it's probably the next worse thing...
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/breaking-seven-dead-others-reported-wounded-after-car-struck-crowd-of-pedestrians-near-migrant-shelter-in-texas/

Can't say for sure if it was intentional or not at this point, but it sure looks like it. There would have to be some massively extenuating circumstances for the driver not to be guilty of multiple murders...

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Sounds like a Gregg Abbott pardon to me, if it was deliberate.

This explains the silence of the cops and the state officials, he was one of theirs, a rightwing nut and one of the people whose ass Gregg Abbott has his nose shoved up. He is one of those domestic terrorists the whole republican party panders to, enables and coddles. He was dressed and equipped for war on American citizens. The cops and state don't want to tell the public what weapon he used or much about him because it hits a bit too close to home.


What photo from the scene tells us about the Texas mall shooter

27,772 views May 7, 2023 #CNN #News
CNN's Josh Campbell shares what he's learning from his law enforcement sources about the man who opened fire at an Allen, Texas, mall killing at least 8 people.

What happened, did someone take a shot at Rupert with a sniper rifle?

It seems tribal supremacy is the main theme in killings.

Kerowacked said:

Texas is like granny’s snatch, everybody knows its down there but nobody wants to go there.

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DIY-HP-LED said:

Whether you or any other member of the minority deserve something or not, is up to the majority, hopefully constrained by the constitution and courts. There are elections every two years in America, and we will soon see if the polling on guns is reflected in the elections. There may indeed be a big change in public sentiment, but it is my guess that other things will be more important than guns come election day. As for the argument being circular, take it up with Jefferson and the French political philosophers before him. It cuts to the heart of individual responsibility and life is not fair, many people get dealt a fate they do not deserve. As for lies and deceiving the public, it has always been so and if you think a small group of determined people can't change the world, tell me when it has been otherwise? Democracy or not.

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It's this "deserve" word that I'm objecting to. I find it to be a moral judgement. I didn't "deserve" Trump as president. But he was for too long of a time.

Oregon just passed a measure to reduce gun deaths in Oregon. I voted for it too. Gun advocates cherry picked a judge in a county of 10,000 people to get the measure hung up in courts. Are you saying I deserved that?