Zero respect

tyler.durden

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
It seems germane to clarify what the word Theory means in science, as opposed to it's meaning to the layman in common vernacular of merely being a guess. A theory is the highest form of scientific knowledge, made up of many laws and facts. The hierarchy of scientific knowledge from lesser to greater is fact, hypothesis, law, and the highest being theory. A theory takes an already existing phenomena and explains it, and can even predict it. Theory is the logical construct of facts, laws, and tested hypotheses that when put together in a logical fashion gives us the explanation of natural phenomena. This short video explains it clearly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2Uh79-fGA P.S. Mods, what happened to the text style and video insert buttons???
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
No, it's a theory. That's why it's called "The Big Bang Theory". Even those who postulated it only call it a theory.
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Your ignorance is showing. Stop saying 'it's just a theory'. Gravity is a theory, evolution is a theory, both of them are also established facts. Theory, in the scientific world, means explanation not 'guess', like you think it does.

Red shift indicates objects are moving away from each other, not that they were ever "very, very close".
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You dolt... if EVERYTHING is moving away from one another, where did it start out??? Jesus Christ, you're slow.

Thanks for agreeing with me.
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Morality, as you define it, predates any religion or language.

What is your point? Are you claiming bible readers still practice slavery?
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You said slavery stopped because religion 'said so', which is patently false.

Gravity isn't considered a theory. You seem to think a theory is a proven fact. It isn't. I didn't suggest it was a theory. THE ORIGINATORS DID. Background radiation was discovered shortly after Marconi discovered electromagnetic radiation, long before the big bang theory was postulated. You can't even describe "gravitational waves"
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The Theory of Gravity, is ABSOLUTELY a theory. How do you not know this basic grade 9 science?

Einstein's theory of General Relativity ring a bell? Why things fall? You know, it's the 'theory' that keep satellites in the air, and GPS working..... but hey, it's 'just a theory'.

Take a look, it's in a book....
[video=youtube;WfGhfI_NwcA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGhfI_NwcA[/video]

You seem to think your explanations have a lot more credibility than they actually do. The big bang theory claims everything was "created", yet you accept it as fact, even though the even originators don't claim it to be fact.
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That's a lie. The 'Big Bang theory' says ABSOLUTELY nothing about creation. No one knows what was pre-big bang.

Since I didn't specify any particular theory, your statement is just a complete fabrication. If you're referring to "the big bang", even the originators don't claim it to be fact. If you're referring to "global warming", their predictions didn't happen, that's why they changed it to "climate change". That way, no matter what happens, they can pretend they "predicted" it.
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Another bold faced lie. The Big Bang theory is hands down the best explanation we have for explaining the origins of the universe, and it has tremendous predicting power, as we've seen time and time again with better and better telescope shots. Theory means explanation, not guesswork. Again, THEORY MEANS EXPLANATION NOT GUESSWORK.

Do you read at all? 'Climate change' pre-dates global warming as a term. They are absolutely NOT interchangeable terms. Global warming is what causes climate change, scientists didn't come up with a new term because predictions failed. As you've already been show in another thread, but I'll post it here just so others can see you're full of shit.



 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Let me educate you fools: Full Definition of THEORY 1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another 2 : abstract thought : speculation 3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art 4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory 5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena 6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation .......................... b : an unproved assumption : conjecture ...................................................... c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject
 
tyler.durden

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
Let me educate you fools: Full Definition of THEORY 1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another 2 : abstract thought : speculation 3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art 4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory 5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena 6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation .......................... b : an unproved assumption : conjecture ...................................................... c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject
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Number 5 in your post above is how theory is used in science...
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
5,6, and 7. None denoting a fact. " a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena" You don't know what "plausible" means either. So how does your foot taste?
 
tyler.durden

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
5,6, and 7. None denoting a fact. " a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena" You don't know what "plausible" means either. So how does your foot taste?
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Yes, the definition you posted was brief (referring to number 5), and due to its brevity, it could not go into all aspects that encompass scientific theory. It's description was longer and more comprehensive in my previous post, but the wiki entry is very good and maybe easier to understand - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory "Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge (above facts, hypothesis, and laws).[3] This is significantly different from the common usage of the word "theory", which implies that something is a guess (i.e., unsubstantiated and speculative).[5]"
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
You guys are the only ones using the word "guess". Perhaps a Freudian slip? And your definition from wikipedia doesn't imply fact. And would encompass theories proven false ages ago. "The Earth is flat" was a theory. How "reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive" was that? A theory is above facts? Do you have any idea how stupid you look?
 
tyler.durden

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
You guys are the only ones using the word "guess". Perhaps a Freudian slip? And your definition from wikipedia doesn't imply fact. And would encompass theories proven false ages ago. "The Earth is flat" was a theory. How "reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive" was that? A theory is above facts? Do you have any idea how stupid you look?
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Scientific theory is above facts, as it is the highest form of scientific knowledge made up of many facts and laws. Please actually read the wiki entry in its entirety. The Flat Earth model was not a theory, just an archaic belief - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth This would be a good opportunity for you to learn, it is not wise to shit on it. I can understand why you are defensive, and feel the need for aggression; you came into this thread with an attitude and misconceptions, and those falsehoods were dealt with handily by people much more well versed in science than yourself. Ad hominems were thrown at you, and you feel the need to strike back. You are obviously out of your league here, we know it, you know it and most members reading this know it. You don't follow science or really understand it, but many of us here do. It only makes sense that people who study and follow science will understand it better than someone who does not. Please take the time to ask questions, to read, comprehend, and learn. It will serve you better than your right-fight attitude, especially when you don't have the knowledge to back it up. There is no shame in ignorance, but there is in attempting to defend it...
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
You guys are the only ones using the word "guess". Perhaps a Freudian slip? And your definition from wikipedia doesn't imply fact. And would encompass theories proven false ages ago. "The Earth is flat" was a theory. How "reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive" was that? A theory is above facts? Do you have any idea how stupid you look?
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You are the one unsuccessfully trying to interchange "theory" with "guess". Example "the Earth is flat was just a theory.."

You don't understand what "theory" means, you don't understand how science works, no wonder you don't accept valid scientific theories, just like I said before, you can't because your worldview would be shattered.

A theory is a collection of facts that attempt to explain the same thing. The theory of evolution is just a theory, the big bang theory is just a theory, the theory of special relativity is just a theory... Germ theory, game theory, etc... all accepted scientific facts, all classified as 'scientific theories'. You're simply ignorant of what the word means and you highlight that with every post.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Fact: A basic statement established by experiment or observation. All facts are true under specific conditions. Some facts may be false when re-tested with better instruments.

Law: A logical relationship between two or more things that is based on a variety of facts and proven hypothesis. It is often a mathematical statement of how two or more quantities relate to each other.

Hypothesis: A tentative statement that can be tested by direct experiment or observation. A proven hypothesis can be expressed as a law or a theory.

Theory: An explanation for why certain laws and facts exist that can be tested to determine its accuracy. (This is what a theory means to science. In general terms, a theory can mean “guess” or “idea”.)

Belief: A statement that is not scientifically demonstrable in the same way as facts, laws, hypotheses or theories. (This is what a belief is to science. To humans, a belief is any proposition we feel says something accurate about the state of the world.)


Facts do not 'become' theories, and a theory is never 'upgraded' to a law. Facts report, laws describe, and theories explain.

^^The above is taken from a quiz given to applicants of NASA.

When speaking of scientific theories, saying "it's just a theory" is about the most illiterate statement one could make. It reveals a lack of even the most elementary understanding of the scientific process. Someone who argues with the scientific definition of theory while calling everyone else a fool is interested not in the truth, but in having their ignorance validated.





"A word like 'theory' is a technical scientific term," said Michael Fayer, a chemist at Stanford University. "The fact that many people understand its scientific meaning incorrectly does not mean we should stop using it. It means we need better scientific education."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/just-a-theory-7-misused-science-words/
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
You guys are the only ones using the word "guess". Perhaps a Freudian slip? And your definition from wikipedia doesn't imply fact. And would encompass theories proven false ages ago. "The Earth is flat" was a theory. How "reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive" was that? A theory is above facts? Do you have any idea how stupid you look?
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It's not a wiki definition.

http://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html

A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. If enough evidence accumulates to support a hypothesis, it moves to the next step—known as a theory—in the scientific method and becomes accepted as a valid explanation of a phenomenon.





A scientific theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. When used in non-scientific context, the word “theory” implies that something is unproven or speculative. As used in science, however, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena.




Any scientific theory must be based on a careful and rational examination of the facts. In the scientific method, there is a clear distinction between facts, which can be observed and/or measured, and theories, which are scientists’ explanations and interpretations of the facts. Scientists can have various interpretations of the outcomes of experiments and observations, but the facts, which are the cornerstone of the scientific method, do not change.
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http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6024&page=2

Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as "true." Truth in science, however, is never final, and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.


Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, it becomes more probable that the hypothesis is correct. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis can be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.


Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.


Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.
The contention that evolution should be taught as a "theory, not as a fact" confuses the common use of these words with the scientific use. In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.
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Part of the problem is that the word "theory" means something very different in lay language than it does in science: A scientific theory is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that has been substantiated through repeated experiments or testing. But to the average Jane or Joe, a theory is just an idea that lives in someone's head, rather than an explanation rooted in experiment and testing.
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http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/just-a-theory-7-misused-science-words/

1. Hypothesis
The general public so widely misuses the words hypothesis, theory and law that scientists should stop using these terms, writes physicist Rhett Allain of Southeastern Louisiana University, in a blog post on Wired Science. [Amazing Science: 25 Fun Facts]
"I don't think at this point it's worth saving those words," Allain told LiveScience.
A hypothesis is a proposed explanation for something that can actually be tested. But "if you just ask anyone what a hypothesis is, they just immediately say 'educated guess,'" Allain said.


2. Just a theory?
Climate-change deniers and creationists have deployed the word "theory" to cast doubt on climate change and evolution.
"It's as though it weren't true because it's just a theory," Allain said.
That's despite the fact that an overwhelming amount of evidence supports both human-caused climate change and Darwin's theory of evolution.


Part of the problem is that the word "theory" means something very different in lay language than it does in science: A scientific theory is an explanation of some aspect of the natural world that has been substantiated through repeated experiments or testing. But to the average Jane or Joe, a theory is just an idea that lives in someone's head, rather than an explanation rooted in experiment and testing.
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http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistryglossary/g/theory-definition.htm

Definition: In the context of science, a theory is a well-established explanation for scientific data. Theories typically cannot be proven, but they can become established if they are tested by several different scientific investigators. A theory can be disproven by a single contrary result.


Also Known As: scientific theory, theories


Examples: Examples of theories include the Big Bang Theory, the Theory of Evolution, and the Kinetic Theory of Gases
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http://evolution.about.com/od/Overview/g/What-Is-A-Scientific-Theory.htm

Definition: A scientific theory is much different than a "theory" in common terms. While the word "theory" is generally used to mean a guess or an uncertainty, scientific theories are much more than that.
In science, an idea starts out as a hypothesis, or an educated guess as to why or how something is happening. Those hypotheses undergo a lot of experimental trials in various ways and data is collected. Over time, as more and more data is collected, a hypothesis can become a scientific theory. The more a hypothesis is supported by many different experiments and many different experimenters, the stronger the scientific theory. However, scientific theories can change as more data is collected.
The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory. It began as a hypothesis that has been tested time after time and always supported. There is a plethora of data to back up the Theory of Evolution. Even though detractors say that it's just a "theory", the fact that it is a scientific theory means it is much closer to being a scientific truth than an educated guess.


Examples:

In addition to the Theory of Evolution, other scientific theories include the Big Bang Theory, the Atomic Theory, and the Cell Theory.
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Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
http://biology.about.com/od/biologydictionary/g/celltheory.htm

Definition: The Cell Theory is one of the basic principles of biology. Credit for the formulation of this theory is given to german scientists Theodor Schwann, Matthias Schleiden, and Rudolph Virchow.

The Cell Theory states:
  • All living organisms are composed of cells. They may be unicellular or multicellular.
  • The cell is the basic unit of life.
  • Cells arise from pre-existing cells.
The modern version of the Cell Theory includes the ideas that:
  • Energy flow occurs within cells.
  • Heredity information (DNA) is passed on from cell to cell.
  • All cells have the same basic chemical composition.
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But it's JUST A THEORY right?

How can we possibly have nuclear power plants and weapons if Atomic Theory is JUST A THEORY?

a·tom·ic the·o·ry
noun
noun: atomic theory



1.
the theory that all matter is made up of tiny indivisible particles (atoms). According to the modern version, the atoms of each element are effectively identical, but differ from those of other elements, and unite to form compounds in fixed proportions.
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Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
You are the one unsuccessfully trying to interchange "theory" with "guess". Example "the Earth is flat was just a theory.." You don't understand what "theory" means, you don't understand how science works, no wonder you don't accept valid scientific theories, just like I said before, you can't because your worldview would be shattered. A theory is a collection of facts that attempt to explain the same thing. The theory of evolution is just a theory, the big bang theory is just a theory, the theory of special relativity is just a theory... Germ theory, game theory, etc... all accepted scientific facts, all classified as 'scientific theories'. You're simply ignorant of what the word means and you highlight that with every post.
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"The fact that it is a scientific theory means it is much CLOSER to being a scientific truth than an educated guess." The two of you are about as weird as you can get. You blather on and on about idiocies. You don't even recognize the meaning of the word theory. You think you can change the definition of words to suit your agenda. Sorry, but you ain't Webster. You are doomed to having people snicker behind your backs forever. Goodbye clowns.
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
"The fact that it is a scientific theory means it is much CLOSER to being a scientific truth than an educated guess." The two of you are about as weird as you can get. You blather on and on about idiocies. You don't even recognize the meaning of the word theory. You think you can change the definition of words to suit your agenda. Sorry, but you ain't Webster. You are doomed to having people snicker behind your backs forever. Goodbye clowns.
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You are incapable of distinguishing between a 'theory', and a 'scientific theory'. It's not the definitions fault, it's your own.

How about Encyclopedia Britannica's definition?

scientific theory, systematic ideational structure of broad scope, conceived by the human imagination, that encompasses a family of empirical (experiential) laws regarding regularities existing in objects and events, both observed and posited. A scientific theory is a structure suggested by these laws and is devised to explain them in a scientifically rational manner.

In attempting to explain things and events, the scientist employs (1) careful observation or experiments, (2) reports of regularities, and (3) systematic explanatory schemes (theories). The statements of regularities, if accurate, may be taken as empirical laws expressing continuing relationships among the things or characteristics observed. Thus, when empirical laws are able to satisfy curiosity by uncovering an orderliness in the behaviour of things or events, the scientist may advance a systematic scheme, or scientific theory, to provide an accepted explanation of why these laws obtain.


Empirical laws and scientific theories differ in several ways. In a law, reasonably clear observational rules are available for determining the meaning of each of its terms; thus, a law can be tested by carefully observing the things and properties referred to by these terms. Indeed, they are initially formulated by generalizing or schematizing from observed relationships. In the case of scientific theories, however, some of the terms commonly refer to things that are not observed. Thus, it is evident that theories are imaginative constructions of the human mind—the results of philosophical and aesthetic judgments as well as of observation—for they are only suggested by observational information rather than inductively generalized from it. Moreover, theories cannot ordinarily be tested and accepted on the same grounds as laws.

Thus, whereas an empirical law expresses a unifying relationship among a small selection of observables, scientific theories have much greater scope, explaining a variety of such laws and predicting others as yet undiscovered.

A theory may be characterized as a postulational system (a set of premises) from which empirical laws are deducible as theorems. Thus, it can have an abstract logical form, with axioms, formation rules, and rules for drawing deductions from the axioms, as well as definitions for empirically interpreting its symbols. In practice, however, theories are seldom structured so carefully.
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I'm ok with having uneducated people, who can't distinguish between a 'scientific theory' and a 'theory', laugh at me because it's a bit like having a petulant child call you a 'stinky bum', laugh, and run away. Grown ups don't get upset when children don't understand things, they just chalk it up to an ignorance regarding the world. What's annoying is that you celebrate your ignorance instead of attempting to actually learn something.
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Red1966 said:
"The fact that it is a scientific theory means it is much CLOSER to being a scientific truth than an educated guess."
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Science doesn't delve in certainty, only probability.

If something is 99.9999999999999999999% likely to be true, we consider it a truth, e.g. cell theory, atomic theory, theory of relativity....
 
joefoxx

joefoxx

Member
Anyone know the scene from the film "Children of Men" at the end where they take the baby downstairs and all the fighting stops as soldiers, rebels, and civilians watch the (re)solution to their whole conflict walk right out between them?....... There is amazed silence for a full 10 seconds then............... ...They go right back to fighting hahhahahaha
 
Red1966

Red1966

Well-Known Member
Beefbisquit said:
You are incapable of distinguishing between a 'theory', and a 'scientific theory'. It's not the definitions fault, it's your own. How about Encyclopedia Britannica's definition? I'm ok with having uneducated people, who can't distinguish between a 'scientific theory' and a 'theory', laugh at me because it's a bit like having a petulant child call you a 'stinky bum', laugh, and run away. Grown ups don't get upset when children don't understand things, they just chalk it up to an ignorance regarding the world. What's annoying is that you celebrate your ignorance instead of attempting to actually learn something.
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Once again , your own citation disproves your point. " A scientific theory is a structure SUGGESTED by these laws and is devised to explain them in a scientifically rational manner." You truly are an idiot. The hole you're in is plenty deep enough, but you continue to dig.
 
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