Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[DANKSWAG]

Im sure some one else will bring more scientific researhc to the table, but from my understanding, dolmite takes much longer then oyster to actually start doing its magic,
On the other hand oystershell and other rich organics in cal mag works quicker and works in cunjuction with all the other goodies we put in our soil, not to mention ph adjusting.

my soil is about 1 year old and i used a little dolmite because thats what i had at the time, i also used oystershell and i havent had a problem, i say since ive been using this ROLS soil, i top dress with oyster/egg about once a month, some what lightly, probley less the half cup. And when i do a "heavy tea" about once every other month, ill add some oystershell, seems to dissolve well.

foreverflyhi

I found the post I meant to reference from Cann (https://www.rollitup.org/organics/673002-oyster-shell-substitute-dolomite.html#post9248117)

I've used Epsom and Dolomite lime and fish bone meal to get calcium in my soil when building out a mix for my containers or amending to address any signs of deficiency. So I haven't applied Oyster Shell before not to mention my ROLS method has not been entirely complete as it has been given in setting aside pots and growing cover crop and apply full ROLS methods in recycling for use. So this has been a fly by my pants experience as I am used to cooking soil and putting into pot for new plants as opposed to reusing the soil in pot without disrupting established soil web.

BTW the Dolomite lime I am using looks like rock salt crystals, these can be used in building soil or since they are fast acting and soluble I dissolve in water to get into soil quicker my concern with watering would with it would be disrupting any fungi activity in the soil web, though the bacteria would love it and at 22% Cal and 11% Mg I would want to water lightly this late or just add a tablespoon top dressed slight till under the soil and just water and let it slowly release. This is where Feathermeal when building soil is awesome high N with slow release calcium. But since the N is a little higher and High N directly added to soil without chance to cook first can disrupt the established soil web throwing PH off if not buffered properly. This is where Oyster Shell is great slow release great organic source of calcium and can be mixed with High N meals and guanos to buffer application to the soil keeping the PH in check.

In essence I think this dolomite lime has a place in containers at least in initially building of soil while cooking adding good amounts of calcium and magnesium.
However when building soils using High Ns like guano and various meals and their accumulation of N from those such as feather meal, fish bone meal, crab meal and alfalfa meal and the like when cooking the use of Oyster Shell or other pure sources of calcium carbonate will help keep the bacteria healthy and composting by keeping the PH in check from dropping too much during the composting processes. So I can see using light N meals with oyster shell when top dressing to amend soil that needs help would be very beneficial too.

note to self further review on ROLS and ensuring quality organic nurtirion is readily avaiable before transplanting clones into for veg and onto flower. ROLS pot must have majority needed nutrients that can sustain and be increased with teas.

DankSwag

 

[DANKSWAG]

hey guys noticed everyone here using smart pots!
found out that velcro works great for training , you just stick it right onto the pots!!
here's the stuff i got, i bet those little pots they sell you could just stick them to the brims of your smart pots in veg to start clones / seedlings at the same level for t5's and such , just thought i'd share i really think its easier than poking holes in the smart pots
http://www.velcro.com/Products/Garden.aspx

the pots i have are light gray, i don't know if the different brand geo pots whatever mine may have been "dirt pots" you could probably test it with some veclro if you have any, it has to be a specific side (i think the scratchy side)

Yep been using the tomato green velcro easy tear strips very convenient especially for MAINLINE training.

DankSwag

 

[RedCarpetMatches]

Soo I was supposed to have my bodhi gear by now.... but apparently my bank did'nt process the transaction, got fraud detection from seedsman, so moral of the story is I have a world of seeds nNLxbigbud fem which i dont know anything about really, and a barneys farm pineapple chunk, which I have heard is totally underwhelming as far as potency goes... BAHHH was supposed to have 33 bodhi beans, and they're all gone now.....But anyways Im just venting...

they got fraud now too like attitude. well there another seed bank gone down. That helped make up my mind. Just going to wait for the l.a. cup.

It says in bright red letters when placing order that when using credit/debit...

 

[foreverflyhi]

foreverflyhi

I found the post I meant to reference from Cann (https://www.rollitup.org/organics/673002-oyster-shell-substitute-dolomite.html#post9248117)

I've used Epsom and Dolomite lime and fish bone meal to get calcium in my soil when building out a mix for my containers or amending to address any signs of deficiency. So I haven't applied Oyster Shell before not to mention my ROLS method has not been entirely complete as it has been given in setting aside pots and growing cover crop and apply full ROLS methods in recycling for use. So this has been a fly by my pants experience as I am used to cooking soil and putting into pot for new plants as opposed to reusing the soil in pot without disrupting established soil web.

BTW the Dolomite lime I am using looks like rock salt crystals, these can be used in building soil or since they are fast acting and soluble I dissolve in water to get into soil quicker my concern with watering would with it would be disrupting any fungi activity in the soil web, though the bacteria would love it and at 22% Cal and 11% Mg I would want to water lightly this late or just add a tablespoon top dressed slight till under the soil and just water and let it slowly release. This is where Feathermeal when building soil is awesome high N with slow release calcium. But since the N is a little higher and High N directly added to soil without chance to cook first can disrupt the established soil web throwing PH off if not buffered properly. This is where Oyster Shell is great slow release great organic source of calcium and can be mixed with High N meals and guanos to buffer application to the soil keeping the PH in check.

In essence I think this dolomite lime has a place in containers at least in initially building of soil while cooking adding good amounts of calcium and magnesium.
However when building soils using High Ns like guano and various meals and their accumulation of N from those such as feather meal, fish bone meal, crab meal and alfalfa meal and the like when cooking the use of Oyster Shell or other pure sources of calcium carbonate will help keep the bacteria healthy and composting by keeping the PH in check from dropping too much during the composting processes. So I can see using light N meals with oyster shell when top dressing to amend soil that needs help would be very beneficial too.

note to self further review on ROLS and ensuring quality organic nurtirion is readily avaiable before transplanting clones into for veg and onto flower. ROLS pot must have majority needed nutrients that can sustain and be increased with teas.

DankSwag

In reguards to dolmite and watering, i dont think thats how it works. Im not sure if the process actually disrupts the soil, however, wateringg with dolmite will not serve what we are trying to accomplish with ph and calmag.
(Lots of cool science behind all this, look it up)

From my understanding, dolmite is better used either outdoors, or in very large containers that will be aged and reused for a long period time.

thats why alot of rols folk use liming techniques that involve oyster/gypsum/egg/epsom etc etc, these ingrediants work faster and more globally then dolmite...

all this im saying is on top of my head from reading years back.. So may b wrong


as for bohdi seeds, seems like great strains. Would love to get my hands on a seed or two..

 

[Steelheader3430]

Ok I emailed seedsman and asked about their operations status and this was their response.

Hi,

What are you talking about?


We are very much in business and sending out hundreds of orders a day.


Regards


Seedsman

so must have been a payment issue on your part Starcraft. Good luck man hope you get it worked out.

 

[hyroot]

It says in bright red letters when placing order that when using credit/debit...

I wont be able to order from them then. My billing address and shipping address are different. I don't plan on changing it. Maybe fam or a friend can order. i don't trust any of my friends not to do a switcharoo...

 

[RedCarpetMatches]

Ok I emailed seedsman and asked about their operations status and this was their response.

Hi,

What are you talking about?


We are very much in business and sending out hundreds of orders a day.


Regards


Seedsman

so must have been a payment issue on your part Starcraft. Good luck man hope you get it worked out.

I would post this on the Bodhi thread. Many there order from 'Breadsman'. When I placed order last night, there was something in red bold letters about the registered card having to match your billing address...or something along those lines me thinks. Keep us posted and good luck.

 

[Steelheader3430]

Your friends suck Hyroot. Red did you pay with a debit card? Thats my intention.

 

[RedCarpetMatches]

Your friends suck Hyroot. Red did you pay with a debit card? Thats my intention.

I've paid twice with credit card. Also got the guaranteed stealth. I'll pay card again tonight or maybe this new Bitcoin thing. The currencies don't seem to convert right though. 210$ for a 150$ order?! Plus the digital currency varies like stock. I'm confused and they haven't responded to email in 2 days. Think they're getting slammed with the Bodhi promo cuz shits going quick. The Jabba and Lemon Zinger in my cart sold out in hours...move on to the next.

 

[GreenSanta]

I wont be able to order from them then. My billing address and shipping address are different. I don't plan on changing it. Maybe fam or a friend can order. i don't trust any of my friends not to do a switcharoo...

you can stop calling them friends!! I would trust any of my FRIENDS to care for my garden, otherwise they are acquaintances ...

 

[NickNasty]

Here is a good read on Alfalfa from californiacoastalrose.com

An Organic Alternative...Alfalfa​

by Ivy Bodin​

(Originally written for the Roseline of Baton Rouge LA in 1996 by former member Ivy Bodin, this fascinating article won an Award of Merit presented by the American Rose Society. Ivy now grows beautiful roses in Vista, CA.)

"Let me introduce a plant you are familiar with and which you think may be quite ordinary --alfalfa. Yet when grown in the yard it pulls nitrogen from the air and feeds it to soil bacteria, enriching the earth even more than manure. It produces prodigious amounts of humus. It's the perfect mulch. It makes the most superior compost. It's the ideal animal feed. And most amazing of all, it has been found that tiny amounts have a growth-stimulating effect that boosts yields of a wide range of garden vegetables. Don't think alfalfa is for farmers only. It just may be the greatest garden plant ever." by Ray Wolf, "Organic Gardening Magazine", early 1980s.


The Background:

The source of the special effect of alfalfa is a substance called triacontanol. As reported in "Organic Gardening" in the early 1980s Dr. Stanley K. Ries, a horticulturist at Michigan State University began experimenting in the early 1970s with nitrogen-rich foragers as fertilizer substitutes. The results of his 1975 field trials were puzzling in that some of the alfalfa-treated plots greatly outyielded chemically fertilized plots. In the lab they isolated the active agent --triacontanol, a fatty acid alcohol which occurs naturally in the waxy surfaces of the plant's leaves. Additional testing revealed triacontanol was not a fertilizer, but a growth-stimulating substance. The less triacontanol you use, the better the results.

At the Organic Gardening Research Center in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, greenchop alfalfa in very small amounts was tested and indeed it was found that use of homeopathic doses of greenchop alfalfa produced greater yields than use of much higher rates. The lowest rate to be used was found to be 1.5 ounces of alfalfa for 100 square feet of garden or about one cup of fresh alfalfa. The answer explained why triacontanol proved elusive, but garden crop yields on tomatoes, corn, wheat, cucumbers and other crops increased over 40% with alfalfa use than when no alfalfa was used.

Alfalfa is a perennial herbaceous legume meaning it can overwinter, doesn't produce woody tissue, and has the power to take nitrogen from the air and add it to the soil. Plants have purple or yellow flowers, with leaves in clusters of threes, on alternate sides of the stem. The plant starts from a crown at or near the surface of the soil, from which 5 to 25 stems may grow. Each plant is independent, and although usually thought of as a grass, it is more like a bush. It can reach as much as 4 to 6 feet in height with a thick stem. It's botanical name is Medicago sativa and its closest relatives are clover, peas and beans.

Alfalfa's main advantage is its ability to "grow" nitrogen and produce a high-protein forage. As a nitrogen-fixing legume, alfalfa is the standard by which other legumes are compared. It can fix an average of 300 pounds of nitrogen per acre, per year by supporting bacteria of the rhizobia family on its root hairs. As the bacteria grow, they take nitrogen from the air and convert the bacteria, forming nodules ranging in size from no bigger than a pinhead to the size of a BB. The plant uses the nitrogen produced by the bacteria, and in exchange provides sugar that the bacteria need to live. When the plant is killed, the nitrogen in the nodules and the extensive root system remain in the soil for future use. The top parts of alfalfa offer your garden a storehouse of nitrogen with fresh-cut alfalfa containing more nitrogen at 2.7 to 3.4% than any manure. The beauty of using a fertilizing mulch that you can grow yourself should be self-evident. An ideal way to use alfalfa is to plant it in part of your garden each year and regularly take cuttings to mulch all the rest of the garden and then later turn the plants under to green manure your garden soil. Still another use could be as a cover crop kept short by cutting, to mulch out seeds in your garden beds around your precious crops. Some alfalfa patches can be left alone for as much as 10 years with 3 or more cuttings being available for harvest each year. The main ways to use alfalfa in the garden are as a soil-enricher to be rotated through the garden, or as a patch to produce a high-nitrogen material for mulch. It can be used as the energy to heat up a compost pile or as a mulch for all garden plants, slow-releasing fertilizer throughout the year.


The Experiment:

Leaning on the old maxim "practice what you preach", I tried all the afore mentioned alfalfa lore and the results were astounding to me as an avid gardener. My realm was mainly in the vegetable garden and I immediately noticed results when I used a bale of alfalfa hay as mulch. This hay also supplied fire to my compost pile. The next year and for several thereafter, I grew a small patch of alfalfa plants in my 10 x 20 foot garden. I harvested the plants for mulch used on my vegetables and noticed a significant increase in volume and quality of produce. I would simply cut some alfalfa plant and tear it into pieces and distribute just a little around each plant. I also used the alfalfa plants one year as a living mulch around my veggies keeping them cut short with the clippings used around plants. The living alfalfa plants were then tilled into the soil each fall as a green manure and I was able to stop using chemical fertilizers and move toward the organic approach to vegetable gardening. I realized the nitrogen as a fertilizer from the alfalfa, as well as the growth inducing substance--triacontanol were revolutionizing my vegetable gardening. Some early trials with the green chop alfalfa on my perrenials and a few rose bushes also showed good results. But vegetables and increased yields were where the results were in those first years of experiment. The greenchop also made a potent fermented alfalfa tea that gave good results on plants.


On to Roses:

What does all this have to do with roses you say? Whatever you may wish to make of it! All longtime rose growers talk about the special effects of alfalfa as a fertilizer amendment to be worked in around our rose plants in varying dosages. The rose culture literature likewise has as many tidbits of advice about the use of that magic elixir--alfalfa, and the wonderful results that are produced in the queen of all the flowers. This well kept secret amendment did not pop up until I reached the inner sanctum of the rose world. When I discovered Alfalfa, the dosage was yet another mystery. Was it one tablespoon, two tablespoons, 3 cups, or 2 cups per bush, or as much as you can afford for all those bushes? I have tried all the approaches with some success, and as of lately with a cheaper source of the magic potion more available, I used more and got more vigorous results.


The Results:

Well, the flowers tend to be larger for one thing, coming from larger stems with healthier dark green leaves on them. Also the colors of the blooms tend to be richer in color saturation and maintain the color a bit longer than usual. The blooms aside, the plants themselves seem to have a prodigious vigor spurred on by that growth hormone in alfalfa. The leaves also tend to be larger and more numerous as the factory supplying all the food to generate those sumptuous blooms we strive for. Here we are talking about all roses but mainly the hybrid teas we love and groom for those beautiful cut blooms. The alfalfa in my experience tends to generate fine results in other varieties of roses also with the climbers, both modern and antique, showing the most dramatic results. Floribundas and shrubs tended to be more floriferous and hearty and old garden roses seemed to thrive on this soil amendment as compared to use of other manures from organic sources and from commerciallly produced fertilizers. It is noted that the David Austin English garden roses seemed to perform especially well with the use of alfalfa.


Where to get Alfalfa:

Locally at nurseries I have found 4 pound boxes of alfalfa meal for about $7. Also local feed stores usually sell alfalfa pellets made by Purina and other companies as an animal fodder in 50 pound sacks for about $15. Especially good are feeds for horses or rabbits. Many rosarians avoid the animal feed pellets becaue they say that there may be other things in them. Some brands do contain some molasses and salts as binding agents and flavor enhancers but is is doubtful this would produce untoward consequences. In an article in The American Rose Magazine, Dr. John Dickman recommends using alfalfa in a tea on plants and quotes Howard Walters--the Rose Rambler. "Alfalfa tea is a great Fall potion that doesn't interfere with normal fall processes. Alfalfa tea releases a growth hormone that makes everything work better. Just add 10 to 12 cups of alfalfa meal or pellets to a 32 gallon plastic garbage can with a lid, add water, stir and steep for 4 or 5 days stirring occasionally. You could also 'fortify' with 2 cups of Epsom salts, 2 cups of Sprint 330R(chelated iron), or favorite trace element elixir." The tea will start to smell as it ferments and Uggh! Use a gallon on a bush and add water back to the meal to remake several batches before finally pouring off the contents on your rose bushes.


The Formula:

From my own experience with roses I use about 2 cups of alfalfa meal or pellets per rose bush and lightly scratch it into the soil in the Spring and again in the Fall. That basically is the story on use of Alfalfa. I also believe the tea works nicely and sometimes will brew-up a small batch with about 2 pounds of pellets in a 5 gallon bucket of water aging it over a week and applying some to bushes. I add more water and keep steeping the meal for several more batches. The bushes definitely do seem to be healthier as a result and they seem to appreciate the tea in the heart of a heat- filled summer. I also like to use about a tablespoon of alfalfa meal or so on newly set out cuttings that I am trying to root, whether in pots or in the garden. I tend to get better results with this slight boost.

With all the information you will discover about alfalfa as a recommended tonic for roses, with attendant sparse details, the bottom-line test is to use some meal and observe the results for yourself. Whatever happens you will observe it to be beneficial and I guarantee you will have a pleasant new experience with your roses if you haven't yet tried this magic potion. Happy experimenting to you!

 

[Steelheader3430]

I just set up bank transfer. Seems seedsman prefers that and offers a discount. Don't tell me they're selling out red. I don't want to hear that.

 

[Steelheader3430]

I also found a product called ecofelt $5.00 a yard. Now I can put my old kenmore sewing machine to work and make some fabric pots. http://www.etsy.com/shop/FeltForLess?ref=shop_sugg

 

[GreenSanta]

I also found a product called ecofelt $5.00 a yard. Now I can put my old kenmore sewing machine to work and make some fabric pots. http://www.etsy.com/shop/FeltForLess?ref=shop_sugg

man I dont know how much you pay for smart pots but with 1 yard you can probably only make 1 7gallons container right? + the time of making it! hyroot at a good link in the past for cheap smart bag but right now without searching I found some on amazon for 8$ per bag .. I would never go through the trouble of making them unless I could really save big!!

 

[NickNasty]

I buy the brand Root Pouch I use the 15 gal size with handles and you can get a pack of 10 for 56$ at http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/root-pouch-boxer-brown-fabric-pot-longest-lifespan/growing-pouches-and-bags

 

[DANKSWAG]

In reguards to dolmite and watering, i dont think thats how it works. Im not sure if the process actually disrupts the soil, however, wateringg with dolmite will not serve what we are trying to accomplish with ph and calmag.
(Lots of cool science behind all this, look it up)

From my understanding, dolmite is better used either outdoors, or in very large containers that will be aged and reused for a long period time.

thats why alot of rols folk use liming techniques that involve oyster/gypsum/egg/epsom etc etc, these ingrediants work faster and more globally then dolmite...

all this im saying is on top of my head from reading years back.. So may b wrong


as for bohdi seeds, seems like great strains. Would love to get my hands on a seed or two..

Foreverflyhi,

There are many forms (sources) of CaCK03, calcium carbonate. Mostly found in rock and sea shells.

If you source of lime is labeled dolomite lime it has more than just Ca in it, it also has various ratios of Ca to Mg mine is 22%\11%. Dolomite lime can come in many forms that have very little effect or great effects on soil depending of form, prilled, powered and granular which one looks like dark rocks and have very little lime and then the small granular rock salt version of Dolomite Lime that I included product picture of.

The problem with lime if applied incorrectly due to initial reaction with nutrients in the can harm the plants roots by changing the PH value to rapidly, then combine that if your source has too have Mg then compound the problem by hardening the soil not to mention to much Mg in the end at flower will make your shit taste like SHIT!

This is why calcium carbonate CaCO3 is normally added when soils are being created initially to cook (compost). The CaCO3 will help regulate PH.
This is why the form of calcium and how much you add is important, for instance using hydrated lime will guarantee kill life in soil and disrupt PH instantly

Horticulture lime that is pure calcium and as you noted when using something like that folks add gypsum to ensure to get Magnesium that is not available in horticulture lime such as calcite or aragonite calcium sources which are pure CaCO3.

I appreciate your concern for me and how I am fairing with this important nutrient source. Again I am used to building my soil initially so adding calcium to containers especially in forms that are fast acting and lacking experience in adding such nutrient mid stream through a grow I wanted to touch base with someone who has experience adding calcium dolomite form I have and using oystershell which is new. Didn't want to cause to much disruption in soil PH as I add this nutrient for I believe my ROLS pots needed this.

So again anyone with experience using the dolomite I have or oystershell any guidelines on application rates per gallon of soil would be much appreciated.

DankSwag

 

[foreverflyhi]

Totally got ya DANKSWAG,

I have had experiemce with messing with dolmite years back,
back when i was growing with my own super soil, i ran into a calmag problem early flower, so i grounded up a bunch of dolmite (what i had at the time, plus it made sense(at the time)) and i even topdress with some dolmite. the problem got worse and was not able to solve it, pluck the girl and threw about 30 gallons back in the compost.

I have since never really had any Ph problem, and i have only used a tad bit of dolmite with my 3rd-4th round ROLS.. If i where to run into a cal mag or wtv probelm related to PH today, my only solution really is too beef up the calmag/other foods for my worms, top dress heavy with worm shit, make some strong nettle/comfrey/horsetail enzyme teas and hopefully PH problem can be fixed. But now after re reading what DANKSWAG said, and what i originally said and just said, i would probley just start over in the compost hehehehe i have soo much dirt on my property!

Hope my experience helps

 

[RedCarpetMatches]

I put my dolo lime in worm bin after crushing up. My soil is amended with 1 cup of basalt, rock dust, calcium bentonite, and gypsum. 1/2 cup cal phos (SRP) and oyster shell powder. I'd top dress lime and gypsum rather than water lime if I had to fix...for above reasons. Foliar some 1T kelp, 2T aloe, 1 tsp epsom salt, and 2 tsp liming agent (more Ca than Mg) per gal. until fixed. That's my .01 cent.

 

[GreenSanta]

Some pics of recently harvested plants, as usual many more pics in my journal!

SpaceChemo (Spacebomb X Chemo)
View attachment 2955951View attachment 2955950View attachment 2955952View attachment 2955953View attachment 2955954View attachment 2955955

Another SpaceChemo, this one didnt turn purple instead completely faded yellow, seems to have more resin on her ... same cutting!


Chemo


BlueSage


Revolution


ZionEaze (Revolution X Cheese#1)


SpaceGrin (SpaceBomb X Dr.Grinspoon)


Everything is 100% LED grown

 

[DANKSWAG]

Totally got ya DANKSWAG,

I have had experiemce with messing with dolmite years back,
back when i was growing with my own super soil, i ran into a calmag problem early flower, so i grounded up a bunch of dolmite (what i had at the time, plus it made sense(at the time)) and i even topdress with some dolmite. the problem got worse and was not able to solve it, pluck the girl and threw about 30 gallons back in the compost.

I have since never really had any Ph problem, and i have only used a tad bit of dolmite with my 3rd-4th round ROLS.. If i where to run into a cal mag or wtv probelm related to PH today, my only solution really is too beef up the calmag/other foods for my worms, top dress heavy with worm shit, make some strong nettle/comfrey/horsetail enzyme teas and hopefully PH problem can be fixed. But now after re reading what DANKSWAG said, and what i originally said and just said, i would probley just start over in the compost hehehehe i have soo much dirt on my property!

Hope my experience helps

Thanks foreverflyhi