Why is it that...

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
So if you or I donate, are we enemies of democracy?
No, not if there are limitations to how much we can donate, we overturn Citizens United and McCutcheon v. FEC and enact a 28th amendment to ensure a 3/4th majority rule to overturn it in the future. If you can spend billions of your dollars without limitations, it effectively drowns out the majority of American citizens voice
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
No, not if there are limitations to how much we can donate, we overturn Citizens United and McCutcheon v. FEC and enact a 28th amendment to ensure a 3/4th majority rule to overturn it in the future. If you can spend billions of your dollars without limitations, it effectively drowns out the majority of American citizens voice
The cat's already out of the bag. How do you keep the rich from using behavioral research and applying Edward Bernays information theory?
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
No, not if there are limitations to how much we can donate, we overturn Citizens United and McCutcheon v. FEC and enact a 28th amendment to ensure a 3/4th majority rule to overturn it in the future. If you can spend billions of your dollars without limitations, it effectively drowns out the majority of American citizens voice
None of the court decisions you cite here (nor any you forgot) allow an individual or corporation to do what you say; donate billions.

There simply aren't enough national candidates to get to that figure. You can still only give a few thousand per member.

538 in Congress I think, and a president.

Even if you threw in all the Governors of the 50 states you couldn't make it billions.

You'd have to get down to city alderman, of every city in every state to get to billions of dollars.

Your hyperbole and paranoia don't add up to reality.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
None of the court decisions you cite here (nor any you forgot) allow an individual or corporation to do what you say; donate billions.

There simply aren't enough national candidates to get to that figure. You can still only give a few thousand per member.

538 in Congress I think, and a president.

Even if you threw in all the Governors of the 50 states you couldn't make it billions.

You'd have to get down to city alderman, of every city in every state to get to billions of dollars.

Your hyperbole and paranoia don't add up to reality.
How do you keep the thousands upon thousands who donate willingly because of made up research like the whole world is going to flood unless you donate to the Democratic party and stop silly climate deniers, vaccine deniers, evolution deniers, holocaust deniers? That gives you a ton of dumb asses who believe all those people will hurt you if you don't send your money now for a prayer packet.

The fact people are allowed to spend their money "freely" to donate at all is the problem.

You're fucked for allowing and fucked if you don't.

 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Most popular =/= most money. Since '76, legislation has been enacted (Buckley v. Aleo 1976, First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti 1978, Citizens United v. FEC 2010, and McCutcheon v. FEC 2014) to grant corporations legal personhood and remove limits on election campaign contributions (legal bribes), effectively limiting the power of Average American citizens, as was scientifically demonstrated in this study; http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens homepage materials/Gilens and Page/Gilens and Page 2014-Testing Theories 3-7-14.pdf
Yeah, "money = evil", that's why wealthy people who have nothing to do with influencing politics are brought up so often.. You're a hack.
We've been over this, so why are you repeating it? Corporations and labor unions cannot make campaign contributions from their treasuries. Not before Citizens United, not after.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
I don't understand how it is appropriate to defend a couple dudes who have made billions on the backs of the common people. You can defend them all you want or you can be against them all you want. The fact remains that they used America to get their money and I see little improvement to our country.
Corporations and their owners can only make money when there are willing buyers for their products. We the people have absolute power over them.

Our choice not to use that power is our fault. If you buy Brawny, Angel Soft, Mardi Gras, Quilted Northern, Dixie, Stainmaster, or Lycra, just to name a few of the things Koch Industries makes, you're a Kochsucker enabling the Koch brothers and perpetuating their wealth. If you drive a car or use natural gas for anything, pat yourself on the back.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Isn't shit, people start businesses with 50k and end up making over a mil in a year. You don't just give handouts you start businesses make more money and build more of your empire.

The fact is we are an economy based on consumption, if the money is not being used to consume then it is not doing its purpose.
You need to recognize that most wealth is not spendable cash that's sitting in a bank. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and the Koch Brothers don't have $200 billion in cash sitting around. I doubt they even have $10 billion in cash sitting around between them. Their wealth is all based on investments, a simple multiple of cash flow or earnings. It's not money that they can actually throw out for consumption.

If they sell stock to spend money, whoever buys the stock removes their money from possible consumption.

Edit: To connect this to my previous point, if everyone stopped buying products from Koch Industries, the Koch brothers' wealth would likely drop from $100 billion to a tiny fraction of that number, probably just a few billion dollars. It's the same for every corporation and every person whose wealth is derived form ownership of a business. If everyone stopped buying Apple products, Apple's value would drop from $473 billion to $0, and everyone who owned Apple stock, previously worth that huge pile of cash, would have $0.

You must distinguish between wealth, a presumed value that isn't real, and income. The 99% control most of the income, which is the real purchasing power that creates wealth. When you shop at Walmart, buy Starbucks coffee, drop $500 on an iPad, or pay $100 a month for your cell phone to AT&T, you further wealth concentration. Any time you use a product or service owned by a very rich person (or people), you send your money to the top and make that person more wealthy.
 
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killemsoftly

Well-Known Member
Tokeprep,
Thanks for your informative posts. Fresh breath of economcs/finance goes down well with my morning coffee.
Cheers.
p.s. some very powerful info out there. I for one hope that this type of info will some day be used for social media embargoes of products. This could become a very important method for restoring balance imvho. Not saying that is your intention here. I've often wished financial math and eco were mandatory in school. I am now convinced that's not an accident.
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Tokeprep,
Thanks for your informative posts. Fresh breath of economcs/finance goes down well with my morning coffee.
Cheers.
p.s. some very powerful info out there. I for one hope that this type of info will some day be used for social media embargoes of products. This could become a very important method for restoring balance imvho. Not saying that is your intention here. I've often wished financial math and eco were mandatory in school. I am now convinced that's not an accident.
If someone wants something, they'll buy it.

Regardless of what some twat on Farceberk says.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
How do you keep the thousands upon thousands who donate willingly because of made up research like the whole world is going to flood unless you donate to the Democratic party and stop silly climate deniers, vaccine deniers, evolution deniers, holocaust deniers? That gives you a ton of dumb asses who believe all those people will hurt you if you don't send your money now for a prayer packet.

The fact people are allowed to spend their money "freely" to donate at all is the problem.

You're fucked for allowing and fucked if you don't.

I don't understand your point.

We shouldn't keep people from speaking their mind through donation to whatever they chose.
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
I don't understand your point.

We shouldn't keep people from speaking their mind through donation to whatever they chose.
What you read on this site and especially on the MSM isn't an accident. Everything from candy in the check out aisle, to how the wording on the ballet is phrased is meant to "speaking their mind" not ours. Look up Pavlov's dog or Monkey Ladder experiments, lead to this:

Torches of Freedom said:
To expand the number of women smokers Hill decided to hire Edward Bernays, who today is known as the father of public relations, to help him recruit women smokers. Bernays decided to attempt to eliminate the social taboo of women smoking in public. He gained advice from psychoanalyst A. A. Brill stated that it was normal for women to smoke because of oral fixation and said, “Today the emancipation of women has suppressed many of their feminine desires. More women now do the same work as men do. Many women bear no children; those who do bear have fewer children. Feminine traits are masked. Cigarettes, which are equated with men, become torches of freedom.”[4] In 1929 Bernays decided to pay women to smoke their “torches of freedom” as they walked in the Easter Sunday Parade in New York. This was a shock because until that time, women were only permitted to smoke in certain places such as in the privacy of their own homes. He was very careful when picking women to march because “while they should be good looking, they should not look too model-y” and he hired his own photographers to make sure that good pictures were taken and then published around the world.[4] Feminist Ruth Hale also called for women to join in the march saying, “Women! Light another torch of freedom! Fight another sex taboo!” [4] Once the footage was released, the campaign was being talked about everywhere, The women’s walk was seen as a protest for equality and sparked discussion throughout the nation and is still known today. The targeting of women in tobacco advertising led to higher rates of smoking among women. In 1923 women only purchased 5% of cigarettes sold, in 1929 it increased to 12%, in 1935 the percentage of cigarettes purchased by women was 18.1%, this percentage peaked in 1965 at 33.3% and remained at this level until 1977.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
I agree with you in principal.

Ever notice how a parent might propose something to their child? Would you rather do this, or that?

The child has the illusion of freedom, but in reality they are given two options by someone and not really getting what they want.

The American people are treated much the same way.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
What you read on this site and especially on the MSM isn't an accident. Everything from candy in the check out aisle, to how the wording on the ballet is phrased is meant to "speaking their mind" not ours. Look up Pavlov's dog or Monkey Ladder experiments, lead to this:
that shit only works on mushbrains

if you feel a sense of ownership and personal investment when you look at the My ______________ page on a website, you may in fact be a mushbrain
if you own any iProducts you are almost certainly a mushbrain
if you think axe body spray will really get you laid, then you are in fact a mushbrain
if you listen to Barry O's "Hope 'n' Change" twaddle and imbue his vague pleasant sounding rhetoric with all your ideals, then you are definitely a mushbrain.
if putting candy at the checkout counter tricks you into buying candy, yep, youre a mushbrain.
if a 30 second ad which implies that all the liberated girls are smoking makes you light up, youre a mushbrain
if you believe voting for a politician who has a track record of lying will advance your agenda, unless your agenda is all about lying, youre a mushbrain
if you believe the koch brothers are the evil puppetmasters pulling the strings and running america, your mush has dried up, and you are now a shit-for-brains.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
that shit only works on mushbrains

if you feel a sense of ownership and personal investment when you look at the My ______________ page on a website, you may in fact be a mushbrain
if you own any iProducts you are almost certainly a mushbrain
if you think axe body spray will really get you laid, then you are in fact a mushbrain
if you listen to Barry O's "Hope 'n' Change" twaddle and imbue his vague pleasant sounding rhetoric with all your ideals, then you are definitely a mushbrain.
if putting candy at the checkout counter tricks you into buying candy, yep, youre a mushbrain.
if a 30 second ad which implies that all the liberated girls are smoking makes you light up, youre a mushbrain
if you believe voting for a politician who has a track record of lying will advance your agenda, unless your agenda is all about lying, youre a mushbrain
if you believe the koch brothers are the evil puppetmasters pulling the strings and running america, your mush has dried up, and you are now a shit-for-brains.
what if you espouse an odd conspiracy wherein multiculturalism will destroy the fabric of society and lead to bland monoculturalism and "a singular mindset"?

what if you espouse the belief that it is only natural to have a visceral reaction towards black people and bandy about how they will ruin your sister's life one day?

what if you think white separatist philippe rushton is not a racist, even after finding out about his speech at a conference designed to "protect america's european heritage and christian identity from immigrants, islam and blacks"?

are these people simply smart defenders of the REAL AMERICA and "european cultural superiority"?
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
No, not if there are limitations to how much we can donate, we overturn Citizens United and McCutcheon v. FEC and enact a 28th amendment to ensure a 3/4th majority rule to overturn it in the future. If you can spend billions of your dollars without limitations, it effectively drowns out the majority of American citizens voice
So now you want to change the Constitution too? How you going to overturn a Supreme Court decision? Your cause has been argued, and lost.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
So now you want to change the Constitution too? How you going to overturn a Supreme Court decision? Your cause has been argued, and lost.
I know right, not like a Supreme Court decision has ever been overturned and the constitution has never been amended or anything like that...
 

Canna Sylvan

Well-Known Member
that shit only works on mushbrains

if you feel a sense of ownership and personal investment when you look at the My ______________ page on a website, you may in fact be a mushbrain
if you own any iProducts you are almost certainly a mushbrain
if you think axe body spray will really get you laid, then you are in fact a mushbrain
if you listen to Barry O's "Hope 'n' Change" twaddle and imbue his vague pleasant sounding rhetoric with all your ideals, then you are definitely a mushbrain.
if putting candy at the checkout counter tricks you into buying candy, yep, youre a mushbrain.
if a 30 second ad which implies that all the liberated girls are smoking makes you light up, youre a mushbrain
if you believe voting for a politician who has a track record of lying will advance your agenda, unless your agenda is all about lying, youre a mushbrain
if you believe the koch brothers are the evil puppetmasters pulling the strings and running america, your mush has dried up, and you are now a shit-for-brains.
How do you keep the other monkeys from beating the fuck out of you?
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
We've been over this, so why are you repeating it? Corporations and labor unions cannot make campaign contributions from their treasuries. Not before Citizens United, not after.
We've not been over this or anything, who are you?

I repeat it because it's worth being repeated. Those 4 supreme court cases are the reason the middle class in America is in danger of going extinct

-Buckley v. Valeo - "Money is speech"
-First National Bank of Boston v. Bellotti - "Corporations have a 1st amendment right to free speech"
-Citizens United v. FEC - "the First Amendment prohibits the government from restricting political independent expenditures by corporations, associations, or labor unions"
-McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commission - "challenges the biennial aggregate limit that individuals can contribute to national party and federal candidate committees."

Not to mention legally bribing a politician is far from the only way to buy them


Corporations and their owners can only make money when there are willing buyers for their products. We the people have absolute power over them.

Our choice not to use that power is our fault.
You're completely naive if you believe this

Any time you use a product or service owned by a very rich person (or people), you send your money to the top and make that person more wealthy.
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
that shit only works on mushbrains

if you feel a sense of ownership and personal investment when you look at the My ______________ page on a website, you may in fact be a mushbrain
if you own any iProducts you are almost certainly a mushbrain
if you think axe body spray will really get you laid, then you are in fact a mushbrain
if you listen to Barry O's "Hope 'n' Change" twaddle and imbue his vague pleasant sounding rhetoric with all your ideals, then you are definitely a mushbrain.
if putting candy at the checkout counter tricks you into buying candy, yep, youre a mushbrain.
if a 30 second ad which implies that all the liberated girls are smoking makes you light up, youre a mushbrain
if you believe voting for a politician who has a track record of lying will advance your agenda, unless your agenda is all about lying, youre a mushbrain
if you believe the koch brothers are the evil puppetmasters pulling the strings and running america, your mush has dried up, and you are now a shit-for-brains.
Don't hate on people just cos you can't afford Apple products on your shitty sub -minimum wage job.

(Made a sneeky Subway reference there too, so Ha!)
 

Red1966

Well-Known Member
I know right, not like a Supreme Court decision has ever been overturned and the constitution has never been amended or anything like that...
Only SCOTUS can reverse SCOTUS. Requiring 2/3 to pass legislation, you might as well disband Congress.
 
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