The Most Important Person Who Ever Lived....???

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
It's completely opposite from the "global warming dispute" (not a dispute)
What I meant by that is that the record of it is solid. Only fools with an agenda deny it.

The provenance required for people during the time of Abraham and Moses are different than the time of Jesus and Muhammad.

All four men meet the standards for their time.

We can say with 100% certainty that there were two men who lived and died that we today call Jesus and Muhammad. It is beyond dispute. To dispute those two existed as humans makes you look foolish.

With Moses and Abraham it is different. But if we apply the standards used to judge contemporaries of theirs who were kings and the like, we have more than enough to say, using that same standard, that those two also existed.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
We can say with 100% certainty that there were two men who lived and died that we today call Jesus and Muhammad. It is beyond dispute.
They probably did, but in no way would any historian say it's "100% beyond dispute". That is one of the biggest disputes in human history and the evidence available is far from 100% conclusive

Regardless, Abraham, Isaac, Noah, Adam & Eve, all fictional with no evidence
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
They probably did, but in no way would any historian say it's "100% beyond dispute". That is one of the biggest disputes in human history and the evidence available is far from 100% conclusive

Regardless, Abraham, Isaac, Noah, Adam & Eve, all fictional with no evidence
I never mentioned Adam and eve, so I'm excluding them from what I'm about to say.

We can't be sure that anyone in early antiquity or before actually existed.

So ill say it again.

The provenance accepted for deciding on if a person was real or not from their times is far exceeded by moses and abraham.

We can be as sure, or more sure about their existence than most, if not all others who existed at the same times.

No, we dont have a photograph of Moses.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I never mentioned Adam and eve, so I'm excluding them from what I'm about to say.

We can't be sure that anyone in early antiquity or before actually existed.

So ill say it again.

The provenance accepted for deciding on if a person was real or not from their times is far exceeded by moses and abraham.

We can be as sure, or more sure about their existence than most, if not all others who existed at the same times.

No, we dont have a photograph of Moses.
We have stronger evidence that other people at the same time period and even before existed than we do for Moses or Abraham. Julius Ceasar, Khufu, even Ramesses II, who was around at the same time as Moses.

What's the strongest evidence you have that any of these people ever actually existed outside of biblical or religious sources?
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
We have stronger evidence that other people at the same time period and even before existed than we do for Moses or Abraham. Julius Ceasar, Khufu, even Ramesses II, who was around at the same time as Moses.

What's the strongest evidence you have that any of these people ever actually existed outside of biblical or religious sources?
Oh wow, so Julius Caesar existed at or before Moses or Abraham in your mind?

See the problem comes when you say "outside of the bible or religious texts" yet every writing that mentions the two will and have been labeled religious.

The exodus is likely blown out of proportion by the old testament version of it. But there is very strong evidence of semitic slavery in Egyptian records. Even the name moses is likely the jewification of "Ramses (ra moses)"

Same with abraham. There have been some ancient Mesopotamian writings about people with just one god.

Anyway, although seen as religious only today, the old testament and other jew writings are oral traditions written down. Secular is a modern thing.

But there is so much stuff in the old testament dealing with history, not supernatural, that we can accept as good history from the time. It's obviously not the same quality of accuracy as you would get hundreds of years later from Cicero or other roman historians. And obviously not of the quality of 17th century British historians.

But it is better than anything else from its time.

Their contemporaries also come from "religious sources" because kings of that time were also gods, and anything from that day written about them would have been about them and their God status.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
As Jesus, Julius Ceasar was near the time of Jesus. There is much stronger evidence that he existed than Jesus. Same with Moses, Ramesses II lived at the same time and there is much stronger evidence that he existed than Moses.

What's the strongest historical evidence that Jesus, Moses or Abraham ever existed?
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
As Jesus, Julius Ceasar was near the time of Jesus. There is much stronger evidence that he existed than Jesus. Same with Moses, Ramesses II lived at the same time and there is much stronger evidence that he existed than Moses.

What's the strongest historical evidence that Jesus, Moses or Abraham ever existed?
The evidence of Jesus and Ceasar is the same strength, there is just more of it with Ceasar.

There are roman records of Jesus' execution. Plus his followers.

As to Moses and Ramses, since Ramses was their God, there is very little extra religious evidence for either.

But there are many kings and other important people who we accept existed, with poorer provenance than Moses or Abraham. The evidence is given greater scrutiny since they're still important today.

Even if they were just completely made up, does it matter?

It's pretty obvious that Abraham (real, compliled, or imaginary) is the most important person to ever exist.

The fact that I mentioned him, and it went on to dominate the next page or two of the thread is evidence enough of this.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
But there are many kings and other important people who we accept existed, with poorer provenance than Moses or Abraham. The evidence is given greater scrutiny since they're still important today.
Like who?

Even if they were just completely made up, does it matter?

It's pretty obvious that Abraham (real, compliled, or imaginary) is the most important person to ever exist.

The fact that I mentioned him, and it went on to dominate the next page or two of the thread is evidence enough of this.
You mentioning Abraham and me questioning the evidence of his existence isn't evidence of anything. You didn't answer the question correctly
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
Like who?



You mentioning Abraham and me questioning the evidence of his existence isn't evidence of anything. You didn't answer the question correctly
Like just about anyone in early antiquity or before.

Hamarabi and his code of law.

Any of the early Mesopotamian rulers.

Notice I left out noah. Or was it gilgamesh.

There is no evidence of Abraham or Moses that I could give you that you wouldn't find fault with as religious writing.

But all the archeological evidence of Ramses was religious in its day as the Pharoah was worshipped.
 

charface

Well-Known Member
I think clearly it is me.
Without me none of these fucks would even be on my radar.
Really to hard to choose.
Its like asking what is the most important ingredient in a peanut butter and jelly sammy
 

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
I never mentioned Adam and eve, so I'm excluding them from what I'm about to say.

We can't be sure that anyone in early antiquity or before actually existed.

So ill say it again.

The provenance accepted for deciding on if a person was real or not from their times is far exceeded by moses and abraham.

We can be as sure, or more sure about their existence than most, if not all others who existed at the same times.

No, we dont have a photograph of Moses.


You did mention Adam. God changed Adam`s name to Abraham.
 
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