Alternatives to Fossil Fuels....?

[Rrog]

I think you mis-read my post. Still uncalled for dialog, however.

 

[Doer]

You didn't call for it? Uncalled for in general? You a well known member (that changed his name) What new joke is this?

...the technology to replace fossil fuel isn't waiting to be invented. It's being used now and the Koch brothers are paying millions to stop it.

You cannot prove this so you misread me and said I was being nasty?

WAKE UP

 

[Rrog]

You should really chill. The Koch brothers are well known anti-solar campaign contributors.

If I've changed my name, it's news to me. Anyway, maybe add me to your ignore list if there is one. That way I won't bother you any longer.

 

[Doer]

What a victim. You are not bothering me and I can smell your passive aggressive BS from here.

What brings you over here if you didn't change your name? I don't know you from before. I've not seen you post in Politics. And yet you make a Democratic Talking point as it it is done deal that the Brothers are "hiding" solar tech.

And you have a big mouth and can't back your claims. You punt to "you know they invest in Solar."

Well, duh!

You fit in just fine.

 

[Doer]

And giving orders like that makes you Canadian, in my mind. That is the pattern I see.

Am I right?

 

[Rrog]

Anyway, IMHO people should stop waiting for the miracle and get into solar. Net meter and sell capacity back to the power company at retail electric prices.

 

[Doer]

OK. In Canada? Because it makes no sense in California to buy old tech and be limited to how much we can sell back to the grid.

How does it work for you?

 

[Rrog]

No, I'm in MI. You hook up to the grid and essentially sell all juice back to the power company at retail prices. Then you buy what you actually use at the same retail price. I expect that's the scenario in a lot of places. I'm not storing power in Li batts. I might someday, though.

Just like with computers and any tech, you can jump in and next week something changes and you're not cutting edge any longer. The old solar tech is dirt cheap. So cheap I won't have a solar tracker. I'll just add more panels. All made in USA. Complete with a 30% tax rebate.

 

[Doer]

Well that's different. We cannot sell more than we buy. And even that is goofy math. so no way to make it pay.

 

[heckler73]

Well that's different. We cannot sell more than we buy. And even that is goofy math. so no way to make it pay.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Who the hell came up with that idea and what sort of kickback did they receive?

 

[Doer]

Oh it is even worse than that.

All the homes have "smart Meters" So, it is your yearly usage patterns that matter,

So, winter/summer and vacation time your rate tier and all else, matters to make sure there is still PROFIT.

CA is a giant compared to MI and it is year round sunny in many places.

The PUC will not let us, force PG&E out of a portion of primary generation by having all the homes and businesses do the work.

And power grid balancing is a black art I only barely understand. It is all about spreading the load, or shedding the load, with rolling blackouts is how we do it.

Besides, soon we may all have those MIT natural gas fuel cells for home primary, Then they will 3x the rate on gas.

 

[heckler73]

Ya, we have the dumb meters, too. But I still can't wrap my head around that logic. California is (at least in my perception) a place that champions regulation for the greater good. Sure, some of the regs are bordering on absurd, but that particular bit you mention is hypocritical, if not practically criminal.
I thought Enron was a racket !

 

[tobinates559]

HEMP! end of story

 

[Sparkticus]

Not nasty to make some unproven ass-like comment about some rich people?

Oh yes it is.

Wind, tidal, solar, geothermal... there are numerous alternatives that are more abundant, efficient and cleaner. The wealthy who are invested in fossil fuels are ABSOLUTELY "hiding" these technologies because if energy was abundant, how could you charge people for it? I put hiding in quotes because what they actually do is BUY the patents and then stunt the research so it won't compete. Now that there's a growing a demand for alternative energy, they already own the patents. This is a very common business practice by large corporations in every aspect of society. Medicine, energy, computers, agriculture, automobile, etc. Look what they did to Tesla. If you need proof that big oil has dominated solar energy lets look at a time line of solar progression in the U.S.

1973 - Karl Boer formed Solar Energy Systems..soon bought by Shell oil company.

Around 1974, Mobil Oil joint ventured with Tyco Laboratories and created Mobil-Tyco Solar Energy Corporation.

In 1975, Exxon assumed Solar Power Corporation as a wholly owned subsidiary.

In 1977, Atlantic Richfield Company (ARCO) invested in a photovoltaic company in Camarillo, California and began manufacturing solar cells and panels.

In 1980, ARCO Solar was the first company to produce more than 1 megawatt (a thousand kilowatts) of photovoltaic modules in one year.

That same year in 1980, British Petroleum (BP) entered the solar market when it bought out Lucas Energy Systems.

In 1982, ARCO Solar completed the first megawatt-scale photovoltaic power station in Hisperia, California.

In 1983, ARCO Solar dedicated a 6-megawatt photovoltaic substation in central California.

Around 1983, AMOCO Solar Company, a subsidiary of American Oil Company (AMOCO) acquired the Solarex factory in Frederick, Maryland.

In 1986 ARCO Solar built the first utility-scale photovoltaic generating facility in Texas and also introduced the first commercial thin film photovoltaic module.

Then in 1987, Solarex, AMOCO’s subsidiary, sued ARCO Solar for patent violations, effectively halting ARCO’s Solar’s photovoltaic business.

In 1993, Solarex sued United Solar, a joint venture of Energy Conversion Devices and Canon of Japan, for patent infringement practices.

During the same year, Mobil Oil closed its 19-year solar demonstration plant in Billerica, Massachusetts. The New York Times reported that Mobil stated that although it had developed more efficient, less expensive solar cells, “the electric utility industry market for solar energy is small and is unlikely to grow to large-scale demand in the near term.”

In 1995, Solarex changed its name when Enron Corporation of Houston and AMOCO/Solarex entered into a joint venture and merged into Amoco/Enron Solar, each of the corporate partners owning 50-percent interest in the photovoltaic company.

In 1998, in the world’s largest industrial merger, AMOCO merged with BP. In 1999, BP AMOCO purchased Enron’s 50-percent share and created BP Solarex, and in 2000, BP acquired ARCO now officially known as BP West Coast Products LLC.

BP Solar is now one of the largest solar manufacturing companies in the world. In March 2010, BP announced it will close the Frederick, Maryland manufacturing plant and move its business into facilities in China, India and other countries.

This is not some conspiracy theory... it's a completely acceptable business model. We should have been converted to solar already but the people who stand to lose money have done their best to slow the progress. We know how deeply oil is entwined with government and we now know that members of government own solar energy, too.

 

[Dr Kynes]

You're still combusting with oils. Personally I'll look to plug in items. Electricity is so clean and the tech is here.

where do you think the electricity for your plug comes from?

A: mostly coal or natural gas, which are fossil fuels.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Wind, tidal, solar, geothermal... there are numerous alternatives that are more abundant, efficient and cleaner. The wealthy who are invested in fossil fuels are ABSOLUTELY "hiding" these technologies because if energy was abundant, how could you charge people for it? I put hiding in quotes because what they actually do is BUY the patents and then stunt the research so it won't compete. Now that there's a growing a demand for alternative energy, they already own the patents. This is a very common business practice by large corporations in every aspect of society. Medicine, energy, computers, agriculture, automobile, etc. Look what they did to Tesla. If you need proof that big oil has dominated solar energy lets look at a time line of solar progression in the U.S.

1973 - Karl Boer formed Solar Energy Systems..soon bought by Shell oil company.

Around 1974, Mobil Oil joint ventured with Tyco Laboratories and created Mobil-Tyco Solar Energy Corporation.

In 1975, Exxon assumed Solar Power Corporation as a wholly owned subsidiary.

In 1977, Atlantic Richfield Company (ARCO) invested in a photovoltaic company in Camarillo, California and began manufacturing solar cells and panels.

In 1980, ARCO Solar was the first company to produce more than 1 megawatt (a thousand kilowatts) of photovoltaic modules in one year.

That same year in 1980, British Petroleum (BP) entered the solar market when it bought out Lucas Energy Systems.

In 1982, ARCO Solar completed the first megawatt-scale photovoltaic power station in Hisperia, California.

In 1983, ARCO Solar dedicated a 6-megawatt photovoltaic substation in central California.

Around 1983, AMOCO Solar Company, a subsidiary of American Oil Company (AMOCO) acquired the Solarex factory in Frederick, Maryland.

In 1986 ARCO Solar built the first utility-scale photovoltaic generating facility in Texas and also introduced the first commercial thin film photovoltaic module.

Then in 1987, Solarex, AMOCO’s subsidiary, sued ARCO Solar for patent violations, effectively halting ARCO’s Solar’s photovoltaic business.

In 1993, Solarex sued United Solar, a joint venture of Energy Conversion Devices and Canon of Japan, for patent infringement practices.

During the same year, Mobil Oil closed its 19-year solar demonstration plant in Billerica, Massachusetts. The New York Times reported that Mobil stated that although it had developed more efficient, less expensive solar cells, “the electric utility industry market for solar energy is small and is unlikely to grow to large-scale demand in the near term.”

In 1995, Solarex changed its name when Enron Corporation of Houston and AMOCO/Solarex entered into a joint venture and merged into Amoco/Enron Solar, each of the corporate partners owning 50-percent interest in the photovoltaic company.

In 1998, in the world’s largest industrial merger, AMOCO merged with BP. In 1999, BP AMOCO purchased Enron’s 50-percent share and created BP Solarex, and in 2000, BP acquired ARCO now officially known as BP West Coast Products LLC.

BP Solar is now one of the largest solar manufacturing companies in the world. In March 2010, BP announced it will close the Frederick, Maryland manufacturing plant and move its business into facilities in China, India and other countries.

This is not some conspiracy theory... it's a completely acceptable business model. We should have been converted to solar already but the people who stand to lose money have done their best to slow the progress. We know how deeply oil is entwined with government and we now know that members of government own solar energy, too.

so, oil companies are HIDING solar technology?

your own post indicates that they are the ones DEVELOPING solar technology.

the canard about moving solar cell factories to china is irrelevant, manufacturing solar cells is unprofitable in the US thanks to taxes, wages, regulations and lawsuits.

since there are no tarrifs, making the shit in china is quite profitable, so they moved.

lefties created the economic landscape that drives industry overseas, then bitch and make up conspiracies for those who, predictably, move their industries overseas.

 

[Dr Kynes]

Solar panels are available today. I keep saying this because the technology to replace fossil fuel isn't waiting to be invented. It's being used now and the Koch brothers are paying millions to stop it. I'm installing a solar array and will sell power to Consumers Energy

really? the Koch Brothers?

cuz a huge solar facility on the calif desert was stopped by the sierra club, based on their argument that the solar panels would introduce SHADE to the desert, and destroy the ecosystem...

yes.

SHADE.

almost all of calif's wind farm projects are stalled by suits and injunctions from the sierra club too.

kern county alone has enough wind projects funded, permitted and ready to build that they would TRIPLE calif's current wind electricity output, yet they cant be built untill the eco-loons stop blocking.

the kennedys blocked a wind project in Massachusetts to protect the view from their compound.

i guess the Koch Brothers are secretly controlling the sierra club and the kennedys with their evil Big Oil Mind Control Powers.

 

[yktind]

What about water?

H2O: Di Hydrogen Oxide

I have seen it before. I remember doing an experiment in high school. Can't remember how it went but it basically separates the hydrogen from the oxygen (both of which are flammable)

If you could do it with salt water without destroying your engine you'd be a bagillionare.

 

[jimmer6577]

I love the threads on solar. I'm all for it and even almost finished with a national solar install certification. I don't really think anybody is hiding anything, we all have google. In my opinion, the main issue is the initial up front cost. The average citizen doesn't have $20,000 to spend for something he can get for $100-$200 a month. I know there's financing but there's big business stepping in for a cut. And to go 100% of grid you have to oversize your system by a ridiculous amount. Also where I'm from, if you really figure out your bill by selling it back and repurchasing, there is hidden cost to where you loose. For solar or any other method to really happen, we have to want it because it's going to be costly initially.

This is a fact from a text book that 1/2 a days sunshine on the U.S. could supply all the electric needs in the U.S. for 1 year. Solar water Heating by Bob Ramlow

 

[Sparkticus]

so, oil companies are HIDING solar technology?

your own post indicates that they are the ones DEVELOPING solar technology.

the canard about moving solar cell factories to china is irrelevant, manufacturing solar cells is unprofitable in the US thanks to taxes, wages, regulations and lawsuits.

since there are no tarrifs, making the shit in china is quite profitable, so they moved.

lefties created the economic landscape that drives industry overseas, then bitch and make up conspiracies for those who, predictably, move their industries overseas.

I said they weren't hiding it... I put it in quotes...they buy the technology and slow the production...it's not hard to understand.