Satellite data proves Earth has not been warming the past 18 years - it's stable

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
ignoring that water vapor in the air is a function of temperature and not vice versa, CO2 does have a longer residence time (or staying power, as i put it) than water vapor.

do you need me to cite that? i thought we were at a level of basic science literacy here that i wouldn't have to cite it, but i will if you need.
so you now wish to contend that the heat trapped by CO2 is fundamentally different from the heat trapped by water, and thus dissipates faster?

5cd.png

tell me more...

the length of time a randomly selected water molecule resides in the atmosphere is irrelevant, since it is part of a fairly stable self sustaining cycle, and it is still more than 100 times more abundant at any given moment than CO2.

and to make matters even worse, the water vapour is concentrated in the equatorial and tropical zones where the solar radiation is more direct, more intense, and more trappable, while anthropogenic CO2 sources are concentrated in the temperate zones with LESS direct solar radiation to trap at any given time.

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UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
so you now wish to contend that the heat trapped by CO2 is fundamentally different from the heat trapped by water, and thus dissipates faster?
you really don't get it.

CO2 stays much longer (it looks like you agree there. or shall i cite?).

more CO2 causes more global warming (can we agree there? or do you need citation?).

more warming causes more water vapor (you get how that works, right? as a grower, i hope you do).

more water vapor traps more heat, causing even more warming (see where this is going yet?)

i am still awaiting citation for this "hundredfold" effect.

last time i had to go searching for red's citations for him, i ended up tracking it back to a heritage foundation blog (ie POLITICAL FRONT GROUP) citing a study funded by exxonmobil and koch brothers (who would have guessed, right?).

i can blindly guarantee that the same fate awaits this claim.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
you really don't get it.

CO2 stays much longer (it looks like you agree there. or shall i cite?).

more CO2 causes more global warming (can we agree there? or do you need citation?).

more warming causes more water vapor (you get how that works, right? as a grower, i hope you do).

more water vapor traps more heat, causing even more warming (see where this is going yet?)

i am still awaiting citation for this "hundredfold" effect.

last time i had to go searching for red's citations for him, i ended up tracking it back to a heritage foundation blog (ie POLITICAL FRONT GROUP) citing a study funded by exxonmobil and koch brothers (who would have guessed, right?).

i can blindly guarantee that the same fate awaits this claim.
ha ha ha ha ha ha

ohh thats rich.

the issue is,
a given volume of air, will contain X Co2 and Y (X *100) H2o vapour at any given time on average
both Co2 and H2o are "greenhouse gasses"
even if we ascribe equal values (which is laughable) to their IR absorptive powers, water is 100x more responsible for the temp increase when IR radiation moves through that air than Co2

in a sealed system, whether it is a bell jar or the earth, (the size of that system only effects the scale, not the physics) water runs the show, Co2 is largely irrelevant

you are defending a foolish position.

Edit, just for swank:
any particular Co2 molecule may be "guilty" of "more global warming over time" than any particular water molecule, but there is so much more water engaging in the "crime" all the time, that your idiotic assertion would be irrelevant, even if it were true (which it aint)
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
now if you could only find a credible publishing scientist who agrees with you and red.
if only i could find a scientist who could publish a study that explains that "Fire Is Hot", or "Getting kicked in the nuts hurts" then you might have a point.

this is basic shit, covered in the 18th century and accepted as a fact for a very long time.

shit, it's the basis for the climate zones in a farmer's almanac

Ben Franklin dealt with this issue shortly before he flew a kite in a thunder storm and went on the grand tour of europe's whorehouses.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
Red, volcanicc
i think BNB is talking about different isotopes in the CO2.

pada didnt say this because he doesnt know anything about sciency things if wikipedia doesnt say it first

i havent heard shit about isolating CO2's source based on "differing weights" of CO2, nor by isotope (which is simply my logical inference), but that doesnt mean the claim is untrue, just UNSOURCED and thus speculative.
Neil Tyson De Grass said it on this week's episode of Cosmos.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
ignoring that water vapor in the air is a function of temperature and not vice versa, CO2 does have a longer residence time (or staying power, as i put it) than water vapor.

do you need me to cite that? i thought we were at a level of basic science literacy here that i wouldn't have to cite it, but i will if you need.
Each molecule of co2 will stay in the atmosphere longer than any given water molecule.

But you can't be that stupid.

Water is a cycle. It is constantly being evaporated off of all bodies of water and vegetation gives off water also.

So the molecules don't hang out as long, but there is always more water being evaporated into the atmosphere.

That is the most retarded point you've ever made. Like no more vapor can get into the air.
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
So "green house gas" in the atmosphere above the surface would not have any effect?
Of course it has an effect, it acts as insulation. Did you forget about how greenhouse gasses absorb infrared radiation? That means it blocks it. Well, it slows it's escape, ultimately. And we require it to be slowed to some degree or we'd freeze and that's no good either. What I said previously was that heat is most evident at it's source. Nothing special there. Why would it get warmer first in the upper atmosphere when the primary infrared source is from the surface?

The water vapor absorbs 20 x as much spectra as co2. In total, co2 is only about 0.5% of the problem. So an increase of 3% of 5% IS 0.15%. in other words,,,nothing.
I'm glad you bring up the water vapor. This is a good example. Yes, unit for unit, it does absorb a fuck load more than CO2 does. Absolutely. It adds a great deal to our layer of heat insulation. However, water vapor doesn't stay in the atmosphere nearly as long as CO2, does it? It's levels could never sustain a 50% overall increase without something else being really out of whack. No, it pretty quickly condenses and stays at a general equilibrium in time and cycle with everything else. CO2 on the other hand can be in the atmosphere for thousands of years before it gets absorbed by a tree or the oceans or something else, and the Earth has a finite capacity of CO2 sinks. All that previously sequestered CO2 has to wait in que to enter the sink. This becomes the positive feedback we are currently setting into motion. Eventually the point comes when it becomes runaway. So we should just ignore that? This much CO2 would never be in the air right now if it wasn't for us. The only practical options we have right now is to try and reduce the rate we put out. Personally, I don't see this being solved until something radical like fusion power comes along. I don't think we could ever hope to produce the amount of glass and aluminum required to replace the amount of energy we get from fossil fuels with things like solar panels and wind turbines. We are way too power hungry as a species. But it's a start, and every bit does count in the end.

I said it previously.. CO2 may be a small factor, but that doesn't make it insignificant.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
way to declare victory.

it's usually best to do that AFTER you provide citation for your claims, rather than after you've failed to provide citation for your claims.
there are only two assertions you can be disputing:

1: there is NOT more than 100x more water vapour in the atmosphere than Co2

2: water vapour is not a greenhouse gas.

both of those are absurd

i have already demonstrated through unimpeachable sources that there is more than 100x as much water vapour as Co2 in the atmosphere, and that water vapour IS a greenhouse gas


if you wish to offer up competing studies or reports, now would be the time to do so.

i'll wait.

 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Of course it has an effect, it acts as insulation. Did you forget about how greenhouse gasses absorb infrared radiation? That means it blocks it. Well, it slows it's escape, ultimately. And we require it to be slowed to some degree or we'd freeze and that's no good either. What I said previously was that heat is most evident at it's source. Nothing special there. Why would it get warmer first in the upper atmosphere when the primary infrared source is from the surface?



I'm glad you bring up the water vapor. This is a good example. Yes, unit for unit, it does absorb a fuck load more than CO2 does. Absolutely. It adds a great deal to our layer of heat insulation. However, water vapor doesn't stay in the atmosphere nearly as long as CO2, does it? It's levels could never sustain a 50% overall increase without something else being really out of whack. No, it pretty quickly condenses and stays at a general equilibrium in time and cycle with everything else. CO2 on the other hand can be in the atmosphere for thousands of years before it gets absorbed by a tree or the oceans or something else, and the Earth has a finite capacity of CO2 sinks. All that previously sequestered CO2 has to wait in que to enter the sink. This becomes the positive feedback we are currently setting into motion. Eventually the point comes when it becomes runaway. So we should just ignore that? This much CO2 would never be in the air right now if it wasn't for us. The only practical options we have right now is to try and reduce the rate we put out. Personally, I don't see this being solved until something radical like fusion power comes along. I don't think we could ever hope to produce the amount of glass and aluminum required to replace the amount of energy we get from fossil fuels with things like solar panels and wind turbines. We are way too power hungry as a species. But it's a start, and every bit does count in the end.

I said it previously.. CO2 may be a small factor, but that doesn't make it insignificant.
careful, you may draw bucky's ire with sensible shit like that.

also, CO2 hasnt gone up 50%. it has gone from 325 ppm to 400 ppm since mona loa began sampling thats ~20% provable through direct observation or ~40% based on "pre-industrial values"
 
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UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
there are only two assertions you can be disputing:

1: there is NOT more than 100x more water vapour in the atmosphere than Co2

2: water vapour is not a greenhouse gas.

both of those are absurd

i have already demonstrated through unimpeachable sources that there is more than 100x as much water vapour as Co2 in the atmosphere, and that water vapour IS a greenhouse gas


if you wish to offer up competing studies or reports, now would be the time to do so.

i'll wait.



i'm still waiting for you to cite the claim that water vapor has a "hundredfold effect over CO2 on greenhouse effect".

not that there is a certain amount of it, but the effect it has.

like i said, red claims always and invariably trace back to politically biased, shady-funded sources. this will be no different.

maybe PM red and ask him where he got the claim from rather than waving your hands in the air like you even understand what you are talking about.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
i'm still waiting for you to cite the claim that water vapor has a "hundredfold effect over CO2 on greenhouse effect".

not that there is a certain amount of it, but the effect it has.

like i said, red claims always and invariably trace back to politically biased, shady-funded sources. this will be no different.

maybe PM red and ask him where he got the claim from rather than waving your hands in the air like you even understand what you are talking about.
 
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