Bokashi composters thread

[Countyboy88]

Hey folks,

Havent been posting much lately, but that doesnt mean i havent been up to anything!

So i've recently gotten into bokashi composting and it seems like there isnt much info about it in the MMJ gardening world. I made my EDM with a lacto culture i made with the rice wash and milk method. I innocculated some rice hulls, and have been going to town. I chop everything up really fine and layer in rice hulls for every 2 inches or so of new material in the bucket. Once a week or so i will stir and mash it up and keep going. Ive been using the stuff in my worm bin and they are gobbling it up so far.

So, a couple bokashi topics to get the thread started:

I have not been using meats or acidic ceggies like lemons. but its common to use pretty much any and all kitchen scraps in bokashi. What stuff are people using or leaving out and why?

What are people using to innocculate their EDM with? I used rice hulls because it seems to make sense to me, ive heard of using newspaper and am wondering about other stuff like hay or grass clippings? Or what if we used beneficial botanicals like dried nettle, or dried leftover aloe leaves? Anyone?

And finally, what are people doing with their bokashi?! Im just putting it in the worm bin, but ive heard of people putting it right in their soil and letting it cook in the soil a few weeks before planting.

Lts put some heads together and find out how to best utilize bokashi in our MMJ gardens!

 

[Pattahabi]

Agreed! I don't find many mmj growers utilizing bokashi composting.

I'm fairly new to bokashi composting. From what I have read, you should really buy some EM1 and not culture your own. You will not get the pnsb and other bacteria with your own culture. I avoid onions, garlic, citrus, and since we don't each much meat and cheese, I leave them out also. I used wheat bran to inoculate (put it in a foodsaver bag to ferment).


Peace!
P-

 

[Countyboy88]

Yeah, ive been avoiding onion and garlic as well as citrus fruits and meats. Pat, What do you plan on doing wi your compost? We are a small household, so i dont accumulate a whole lot. My worm bin seems to be keeping up with it pretty decent so far. Also, do you have a drain on your bucket? I dont, and i do find mine getting wetter than i would like at times after putting something like tomato in it, however, the dried rice hulls do a decent job regulating it...love that funky-sweet smell it gets haha!

 

[Pattahabi]

Yeah, ive been avoiding onion and garlic as well as citrus fruits and meats. Pat, What do you plan on doing wi your compost? We are a small household, so i dont accumulate a whole lot. My worm bin seems to be keeping up with it pretty decent so far. Also, do you have a drain on your bucket? I dont, and i do find mine getting wetter than i would like at times after putting something like tomato in it, however, the dried rice hulls do a decent job regulating it...love that funky-sweet smell it gets haha!

I have a bucket inside a bucket system. It can get pretty stanky, but I just empty out the bottom bucket if it collects too much water.

I'm a total noob at this, so mixing with a little dirt and feeding to the worms is the only way I've looked into using it. I suppose you could just bury it. A friend and I are in the process of building a 2'x8' continuous flow through, so I don't imagine I'll have any problems getting rid of my organic veggie scraps. I may or may not bokashi them in the future. I would like to experiment with some of the harder to get rid of items like onions and meat items though. I figure the less I add to the landfill the better.

P-

 

[greasemonkeymann]

well i can't say I've done the bokashi before, but i am loving my worms....they help a WHOLE lot in reducing my garbage, primarily because i eat so many fruits and veggies. Gotta love them though, i actually consider my worms as pets... yeah, i'm not right..

 

[Countyboy88]

Right on grease, they are pets! You should look into trying the bokashi. I feel like it helps break stuff down faster so the worms can make quicker work of stuff like fruit and veggie peels that normally take longer. Especially if you chop stuff up good before composting.

Pat, after a bit more reading around, it looks like its recommended to compost the bokashi further before putting it in your bin. I read somewhere that typically bokashi can be pretty acidic. Is recommended that you take your bokashi and mix/bury it in soil for a couple weeks and then put it in your bin. I just buried some in my old compost heap today. As ling as no animals get at it, i should have some killer worm food in a couple weeks. Will report back later.

Are we really the only 2 people on here doing this?! Come on folks! Bokashi is a great, fast, low smell way to compost in a small area. For these reasons, i think it could be especially good for urban gardeners who dont have the means to have a big outdoor heap. Instead of throwing out scraps and spending a bunch of money at the grow store, put those scraps to work for you! Like pat said above, the less you put in the landfill, the better. Save money and trash!

 

[foreverflyhi]

What would be nice is information and or pictures of how and what bokashi is.

Just a thought

 

[Abiqua]

Awe bokashi, the Japanese art of fermenting compost. I have to say that bokashi was a main reason of studying into fermentation.

For the last 6 months I have been trying to work with stinging nettle immersed in water and fermented. Basically bokashi just in a liquid substrate.

Here is an outdoor beauty that has been fed some Omri Fish Hydrolysate [2x] in veg and Nettle the rest. This was about a week ago, it is now packing on pink pistils like crazy.

I just tested about 4 oz of nettle extract in 1 gallon of water.

6.8 pH
1-3 ppm of NO2 Nitrite
40 ppm of NO3 Nitrate
and 150 ppm of GH

Trying to do more work and experimentation, but it takes time and I wish I had some more instrumentation to measure differences.

Recently I came across the Microbial Ecoloy of Fermenting plants Materials [Attached PDF]....which is basically a read on the ecology of lactic acid bacteria aka LaB's. One of the interesting points is that the difference between plant sources of epiphytic LABS's and things say like lactose from non plant sources, was that magnesium in more prevalent in epiphytic LAB's.

Also you can look up Vinny Pinto and the Syntropic Antioxidaive Beneficial Microbes. Great read
http://sam.vmicrobial.info/


I have done bokashi quite a few times in plastic bags, but never in pails. I usually just dump them into the compost pile for more aerobic conditioning, which I think could help unlock more of the nutrients, especially in plant matter type of compostables.

I supposed you could mix with pre made compost and top dress right off the bat with finished material.

I used both rice wash and soaking newspaper strips into nettle liquid. Should have documented the differences....shoitty

 

[Pattahabi]

@Abiqua sounds more like an FPE then Bokashi. I read Adam Fowlers book "Bokashi Composting". It was a very good overview on the whole process. I have comfrey, horsetail, and chamomile FPE's sitting in jars.

P-

 

[Countyboy88]

Good point flyhigh! Haha. A couple good resources to give a basic understanding of bokashi would be www.bokashicomposting.com and a simple youtube search for bokashi composting will yield several results, including building a diy setup. Basically, its a method of aerobic fermented composting where you innocculate with so ething like a LAB to culture certain fungi and compost. It works pretty quickly and is a low smell option and can even compost things meat and bones and other things people might not usually compost. Im not too deep into the science of it myself. Just starting to do it and have a basic understanding of how to do it and am working towards integrating it into my MMJ gardening. Hoping this thread may lead to a better understanding of it and how we can best utilize it.

Abiqua, i couldnt get your pic to show. i kind of agree with patt that what your talking about seems soewhere in between bokashi and FPEs. Although, i have been thinking about that, using something like a dried beneficial botanical instead of rice hulls to soah my LAB with.

In other news, i put a couple handfuls of bokashi in my worm bin about 2 weeks ago. Mostly consisted of avocado, spinach/arugula, egg shells, coffee grounds, and whatever else. Checked on them yesterday and they have eaten right through it. All thats left is my rice hulls and probably some avo skins. I shuffled things around a bit and there was a lot of worms, particularly baby worms, right in the top of the bucket maybe they are breedi g in it? Cool stuff. The worm bin is something im still pretty new to also, been doing it just a few months. In a week or 2 ill probably use some of this ina tea and we will see if its any different than usual. I also just buried some bokashi in the dirt in my compost heap outside, will check on that in a couple weeks too, to see how its breaking down.

 

[Countyboy88]

Ive thought about experimenti ng with FPEs but havent yet. Im not too good at identifying most of the right plants yet. One thing ive thought about though is making homemade meals. Anybody experiment with that before? ...dont wanna hijack my own thread haha. But i use aloe for foliars a lot, im thinking it would be cool to make and topdress with a meal of something like, old dried aloe leaves, dried nettle and comfrey, and maybe even mmj leaves? Idk...ideas.

 

[docter]

I like it.

 

[Abiqua]

Guys, FPE and bokashi are identical from a chemistry standpoint.

They both use glycolysis to change pyruvate to NADP without O. They share ubiquitous LAB's in several families as Lactic Acid Bacteria is also the driver of "fpe" fermentation. It is very pertinent. The attached pdf helps explain a ton.

It is a function of fermentation that is important, then the material you use second. Guaranteeing a "standarized" ferment is the hardest part.


If we were handing out the FPE label, fairly, ostensibly compost would be included here, as it has an anaerobic stage, where it is undoubtedly breaking down plant matter besides lignin which extracts minerals. Fpe is just a label for a fermentative process, just like bokashi is. They aren't specific defined processes in the name itself

 

[Pattahabi]

Guys, FPE and bokashi are identical from a chemistry standpoint.

They both use glycolysis to change pyruvate to NADP without O. They share ubiquitous LAB's in several families as Lactic Acid Bacteria is also the driver of "fpe" fermentation. It is very pertinent. The attached pdf helps explain a ton.

It is a function of fermentation that is important, then the material you use second. Guaranteeing a "standarized" ferment is the hardest part.


If we were handing out the FPE label, fairly, ostensibly compost would be included here, as it has an anaerobic stage, where it is undoubtedly breaking down plant matter besides lignin which extracts minerals. Fpe is just a label for a certain fermentative process, just like bokashi is. They aren't specific defined processes in the name itself

Thanks Abiqua! It's nice to hear the similarities of the two.

I think the main point here, is we are talking about Bokashi composting as a way to dispose of food wastes. This is imo, albiet similar, a somewhat different process and end result.

P-

 

[Countyboy88]

Yeah, i had never really thought of how similar they are. Good points. I think the most notable differences we are looking at are that a FPE has a liquid end result and is usually made from specific botanicals. Bokashi results in a compost form (possibly changing the way one would use it) and is made from pretty much any sort of kitchen scraps, so its a good way to make use of waste. I like how you really dig into the science of it abiqua, although i dont really understand it, i think i see the big picture of what you mean. Haha. since the processes and chemistry behind it are similar, they should yield similar benefits to your garden. right? Which is mostly specific types of fungi? Mycelium? Anarobic bacteria? ..idk, im still a little behind on the science of it, still really just nailing down the basic process.

Is it fair to speculate that bokashi might be more diverse in the micro nutes that it contains since there will be a wide variety of food scraps vs. just a few varieties of botanicals in a FPE, or is that kind of irrelavent since what we are really after is the bacterial/fungal stuff?

Both are great ways to start becoming less dependent on the grow store and make better, more sustainable use of the everyday resources around us. True organics, The lifestyle. How many times have you met a gardener who is all organic, but their whole regiment is big brand name bottled stuff from the grow store and guano shipped in from halfway across the planet. sustainable? low carbon footprint? i doubt it! I kind of feel like thats missing the bigger point, and spending a lot more money than needed. Growing good mmj is one thing, but producing most of what you need to do it at home, saving money and resources, being experimental and creative, and keeping some waste out of the landfill...those things are important factors for me too. But, to each their own. I def. got my start by going with the grain...used to do great with botanicare and kool bloom and other things!

 

[Abiqua]

Sugar content will be the determining factor #1.

Leaves, stems, milk, bone, meat.......yes, most FPE's are targeted as specific plants, but that doesn't mean you have to. Really I think selecting only 1 botanical per FPE solution, speaks to the "reborn new-ness] and the lack of working knowledge on the who, what, when, where and why of fermenting.

So far my examples are from plants mainly, but I also prepare fish hydrolysate this well too, no plants involved. This follows what you were talking about Country!, about delivering "organic goods" from far overseas, how is that sustainable indeed!

Everything is in my backyard, weeds, weed and fish

Lastly, that Vinny P link is damn good read, took me a few times, but really got me asking questions. The reason I ventured onto it, was because of his analysis of EM-1 which is the trademarked starting solution for Bokashi, which is propelled by LAB or purple sulfur fixing bacterias.

Very interesting, somewhat technical, but definitely every term google able..


Sorry to step on toes earlier, I guess if want to learn bokashi, really you are learning the process of fermentation. Then you go into overload like me possibly and see all the connections, buttermilk, sauerkraut, bokashi, pickles, miso, shrimp paste, kim chee, silage, yogurt, cheese, nato, tofu, beer, methane production etc. etc. etc.

I just felt like I had something to add, sorry for going over heads. Tell me how to dumb it down: help me, help you. I really enjoy the fermentation talk

 

[Pattahabi]

Sugar content will be the determining factor #1.

Leaves, stems, milk, bone, meat.......yes, most FPE's are targeted as specific plants, but that doesn't mean you have to. Really I think selecting only 1 botanical per FPE solution, speaks to the "reborn new-ness] and the lack of working knowledge on the who, what, when, where and why of fermenting.

So far my examples are from plants mainly, but I also prepare fish hydrolysate this well too, no plants involved. This follows what you were talking about Country!, about delivering "organic goods" from far overseas, how is that sustainable indeed!

Everything is in my backyard, weeds, weed and fish

Lastly, that Vinny P link is damn good read, took me a few times, but really got me asking questions. The reason I ventured onto it, was because of his analysis of EM-1 which is the trademarked starting solution for Bokashi, which is propelled by LAB or purple sulfur fixing bacterias.

Very interesting, somewhat technical, but definitely every term google able..


Sorry to step on toes earlier, I guess if want to learn bokashi, really you are learning the process of fermentation. Then you go into overload like me possibly and see all the connections, buttermilk, sauerkraut, bokashi, pickles, miso, shrimp paste, kim chee, silage, yogurt, cheese, nato, tofu, beer, methane production etc. etc. etc.

I just felt like I had something to add, sorry for going over heads. Tell me how to dumb it down: help me, help you. I really enjoy the fermentation talk

Hey Abiqua! Not stepping on toes! I love to hear the details. I just didn't want to derail the topic. I'm still pretty new to fermenting, so I appreciate the knowledge. I've been really big into culturing my own yogurt for a while now. We totally need to start a thread like this.

I'd love to know more about the EM1 culture and how important it is to use em1 for bokashi. Adam Fowler made it sound like don't try and do it your self, this is a special blend that is done in a lab (I'm paraphrasing - probably poorly, just wanted some convo on this). Have the PNSB sounds like a primary reason to start with an EM1 culture.

Ok, getting late, too many rips from the bong...

Peace!
P-

 

[Countyboy88]

Yeah, no toes stepped on here! I love beig able to have convos about this stuff with like minded people. Im just glad we have a great venue like RIU! I dont really have many grower friends who are going anywhere near this route. Most are "big box store" growers so, we dont have too much to talk about. I mention so ethi g about growing my own aloe and using it for cloning and they are like..."whatever, you gotta get this shit, its super expensive!" Haha.

I would be happy to welcome any sort of fermentation talk at all in this thread. As we have discussed, these things are all related and im sure a good understanding of any 1 thing will lead to better overall knowledge of the different things we are doing here. Id love to hear more about how you make your fish hydro abiqua. Been thinking of doing it for a while. I freshwater fish all the time, but i hear they arent as good and id be best off getting scraps from a grocery store or something. Anyone ever experiment with making a fish hydro with any fresh water fish? I have some LAB left over and i do water with a bit of it from time to time, but id love to set some aside for this. Also, this might be a stupid question but, when making something like that, is it a good idea to add any sort of preservatives or anything? Just thought of this because i made a salve recently and it called for some vitamin E oil and it had never occurred to me.

Thanks everybody. Keep up the good convo. I think we are almost into a second page! Haha!

 

[Abiqua]

I would be happy to welcome any sort of fermentation talk at all in this thread. As we have discussed, these things are all related and im sure a good understanding of any 1 thing will lead to better overall knowledge of the different things we are doing here. Id love to hear more about how you make your fish hydro abiqua. Been thinking of doing it for a while. I freshwater fish all the time, but i hear they arent as good and id be best off getting scraps from a grocery store or something. Anyone ever experiment with making a fish hydro with any fresh water fish? I have some LAB left over and i do water with a bit of it from time to time, but id love to set some aside for this. Also, this might be a stupid question but, when making something like that, is it a good idea to add any sort of preservatives or anything? Just thought of this because i made a salve recently and it called for some vitamin E oil and it had never occurred to me.

Thanks everybody. Keep up the good convo. I think we are almost into a second page! Haha!

Saweetah......

I also use freshwater fish, mainly anything I can catch without a limit: brook trout - whitefish and sometimes bluegills too. I also used crawdads, shell and all.
One of the reasons I haven't done a batch this year, was that my traps were stolen on Easter night this year, 1st drop. Bitchez.

Just take the freshly dead catch, immerse in water, in say a 5 gallon bucket, add prepared LAB or alternative. Seal.
Stir every 3 weeks till it will stop bubbling and then cap it. In the dark, stored away, w/ mild temperatures. The shelf life can be long. I have a thick nettle concoction prepared this way, going on 28 months. Never gets stinky, just earthy.

The way I determine bubbling [Co2 releasing] is to use a wine trap. Also called a beer trap. You can find these for uber cheap at any brew supply type shop. Or you can use clear hose, make and bend it into a "S" shape. Fill it with a little bit of water, which will be trapped in one of the curves, providing an airtight seal.

• You can attach this to a lid of a fermentation container. As co2 is released as a byproduct of fermentation, it will bubble the water, caught in the trap and release, but not allowing oxygen back into the container.
  
• Technically you could use this in a dry bokashi container and use it as a timer. When the water in the trap starts to slow bubbling or stop altogether, you know it has gone thru the fermenting stage.

Lastly, I won't say no on the preservatives as a popular one is potassium sorbate [Campden tablets], but the very act of fermentation is a preservative itself. The low pH when done correctly guarantees an environment that even most baddies can't live in. Pickling is a great example, American preservative food?

 

[Abiqua]

Hey Abiqua! Not stepping on toes! I love to hear the details. I just didn't want to derail the topic. I'm still pretty new to fermenting, so I appreciate the knowledge. I've been really big into culturing my own yogurt for a while now. We totally need to start a thread like this.

I'd love to know more about the EM1 culture and how important it is to use em1 for bokashi. Adam Fowler made it sound like don't try and do it your self, this is a special blend that is done in a lab (I'm paraphrasing - probably poorly, just wanted some convo on this). Have the PNSB sounds like a primary reason to start with an EM1 culture.

Ok, getting late, too many rips from the bong...

Peace!
P-

Read the vinny pinto link I threw up or google Vinny Pinto syntropic bacteria...... On another note, recipes are all over for DIY/homemade Em1 "knock-off" recipes. Gil Cadarang comes to mind. So, I do think it is possible to harness

The guy who is the owner/president of the company making EM-1, is funded by the Japanese government thru his university, as he was a teacher. He is one of the few, capable of doing technical analysis on microbial ecology. And then he patents that work, so a lot of what he does isn't in print, readily available.

His big deal is that he has hundreds if not millions of dollars of a budget, to harness how to stabilize microbial populations. He can see what organisms are floating around and then pop off hundreds of GC slides a day on whatever project he wants. That goes a long way.

However, what he creates can be created in a basement as well. Certainly more crudely, but any less effective? that is debatable.Keeping the fermentation in stasis is the possibly the hardest part. Keeping oxygen and light away. But for how long?

There is a place in Bulgaria, and they have identified a specific type of LAB in Bulgarian yogurt, that i believe is called Lactobaccillus bulgaricus, the population who consumes this type of yogurt is known for their unusually ripe ages, into a century + in age. Kinda cool

Long night y'all, ramble on...