giving defoliation during flower a try

Pepe le skunk

Well-Known Member
We understand it goes against everything you would think to do. So why does it work so well?
Maybe your looking at it from the wrong point of view. Or your missing the point of the procedure.
Point is it works, and keeps you from having to deal with a ton of larf. All your left with is gaint colas of nuggetry and no bull shit.
In trim time alone for a dispensery or an individual your talking hours of trim time and that equals dollars and cents. So go ahead and keep doing what your doing, trim your fluffy larf for an extra 6 hours. Or you can try something professionals in a legal state have perfected and neglected to tell you. So maybe your right it might be a lot of people are doing it.
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Any idea how that extensive root system got there? It wouldn't have been those pesky leaves you are so fond of tearing off would it? Please google "transpiration" and then explain to me how these nutrients get anywhere when you have removed the very part of the plant that "sucks" the nutrients up the "straw". It may also be helpful to google xylem and phloem so that you may have a rudimentary understanding of basic plant biology and physiology.

On second thought I will do the work for you, here is the result of googling "translocation in plants" it explains the value and purpose of the leaf in the overall functioning of a plant.


Translocation



Photo by: Anette Linnea Rasmus
Translocation is the movement of materials from leaves to other tissues throughout the plant. Plants produce carbohydrates (sugars) in their leaves by photosynthesis, but nonphotosynthetic parts of the plant also require carbohydrates and other organic and nonorganic materials. For this reason, nutrients are translocated from sources (regions of excess carbohydrates, primarily mature leaves) to sinks (regions where the carbohydrate is needed). Some important sinks are roots, flowers, fruits, stems, and developing leaves. Leaves are particularly interesting in this regard because they are sinks when they are young and become sources later, when they are about half grown.

Phloem Structure and Function
The tissue in which nutrients move is the phloem . The phloem is arranged in long, continuous strands called vascular bundles that extend through the roots and stem and reach into the leaves as veins. Vascular bundles also contain the xylem , the tissue that carries water and dissolved minerals from the roots to the shoots. When plants increase in diameter (secondary growth) they do so by divisions of a layer of cells just under the bark; this cell layer makes new xylem to the inside (forming the wood of the tree trunk) and a thin, continuous cylinder of new phloem to the outside.

The contents of the phloem can be analyzed by cutting off the stylets (mouth parts) of phloem-feeding insects such as aphids and collecting the drops of sap that exude. Phloem sap is composed largely of sugar dissolved in water. All plants translocate sucrose (table sugar) and some also transport other sugars such as stachyose, or sugar alcohols such as sorbitol. Many other organic compounds are found, including amino acids , proteins , and hormones . Glucose , the sugar found in the circulatory system of animals, is not translocated.

In order to accommodate the flow of sap, the internal structure of the conducting cells of the phloem, the sieve elements, is drastically altered. As the sieve elements mature, they lose many of the organelles commonly found in living cells and they modify others. The nucleus disappears, as do the vacuoles, microfilaments, microtubules, ribosomes , and Golgi bodies. Therefore, the inside (lumen) of the cell is left essentially open. The sieve elements are greatly elongated in the direction of transport and are connected to one another to form long sieve tubes. Large pores perforate the end walls of the sieve elements to facilitate flow through the tube. The connecting walls thus look like a sieve, giving the cell type its name.

Some sieve elements can live for a long time, as many as one hundred years in palm trees, even though they have no nucleus or any of the machinery needed for protein synthesis. Cells closely associated with them, called companion cells, apparently keep them alive. The association of sieve elements and companion cells is one of the most intimate and complex in nature, and one of the least understood. It now appears that both small and large molecules can move from companion cells to sieve elements through the plasmodesmata that connect them. Plasmodesmata are minute pores that traverse the common walls between plant cells. They have an intricate internal structure. Interest in plasmodesmata is high because viruses move through them to cause infections. If a virus enters the phloem this way it will travel with the sap, spread widely around the plant, and infect sink organs. Since viruses are much larger than plasmodesmata, they must be disassembled in one cell and reassembled when they get to their destination.




Sugars synthesized in the chloroplasts are actively pumped into the sieve tubes. Water follows by osmosis, creating high pressure. Sugar is then removed by active transport, and water again by osmosis, lowering the pressure in the sieve tube.
The Pressure-Flow Mechanism
The rate of translocation in angiosperms (flowering plants) is approximately 1 meter per hour. In conifers it is generally much slower, but even so this is far too fast to be accounted for by diffusion. Instead, the sap flows, like a river of dilute syrup water. What is the force that drives the flow of material in the phloem? It is pressure, generated in the sieve elements and companion cells in source tissues. In leaves, sugar is synthesized in mesophyll cells (the middle layer of the leaf), and is then actively pumped into the phloem, using metabolic energy. By using energy, the sugar is not only transferred to the phloem but is also concentrated. When a solute such as sugar is concentrated inside cells, water enters the cells by osmosis . Since the plant cells have a rigid cell wall, this influx of water creates a great deal of internal pressure, over ten times the pressure in an automobile tire. The pressure causes sap to move out through the pores of the sieve element, down the tube.

At the other end of the transport stream, in the sinks, sugar is constantly leaving the phloem and being used by surrounding cells. Some is consumed as an energy source, some is stored as sugar or starch, and some is used to make new cells if the sink tissue is growing. Since sugar leaves the phloem in the sink, water exits too (again by osmosis) and the pressure goes down. Therefore, there is a difference in pressure between source and sink phloem. This causes the solution to flow, just as water flows along a pressure gradient in a garden hose. This process is known as the pressure-flow mechanism.

Sugar Loading and Unloading
How is sugar actively pumped (loaded) into the phloem? There are two known mechanisms, operating in different species. In one, sucrose enters the cell walls near the phloem in the smallest (minor) veins of the leaf. It then enters the phloem by attaching to sucrose transporter proteins embedded in the plasma membranes of the sieve elements and companions cells. In the second mechanism, sucrose enters the companion cells of the minor vein through small plasmodesmata, and is converted to larger sugars, raffinose, and stachyose. These larger sugars are unable to diffuse back through these plasmodesmata due to their size. Therefore they are trapped in the phloem of the leaf and build up to high concentration. They enter the sieve elements through larger plasmodesmata and are carried away toward the sinks.

When sugars and other nutrients arrive in sink tissues they unload from the phloem and enter surrounding cells, either through plasmodesmata or by crossing from one cell to another across the cell walls. The size and metabolic activity of the different sinks determines the amount of material that is delivered to them. Thus, the use of sugar in the sinks determines how much sugar flows to them.

Read more: http://www.biologyreference.com/Ta-Va/Translocation.html#ixzz3EtnGeDHH
Excellent, but you don't really think they'll read this, that they're interested in such botanical basics, do you? If has nothing to do flushing and other cool forum stuff. ;)
 

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
We understand it goes against everything you would think to do. So why does it work so well?
Maybe your looking at it from the wrong point of view. Or your missing the point of the procedure.
Point is it works, and keeps you from having to deal with a ton of larf.
"WE"? What's this "we" stuff? Find personal comfort conforming to herd mentality? After we got this POS worthless President fuckin' everything up you'd think guys like you would have learned your lesson about following the herd and fast talkin' posers. Having got that off my chest....

Everything "works" around this place. I could grow in my grandma's combat boots "and it works".

Larf? You are misguided due to a lack of knowledge about plant processes, apical dominance, hormonal processes and obviously have never grown cannabis outdoors in full sun.

UB
 

Pepe le skunk

Well-Known Member
"WE"? What's this "we" stuff? Find personal comfort conforming to herd mentality? After we got this POS worthless President fuckin' everything up you'd think guys like you would have learned your lesson about following the herd and fast talkin' posers. Having got that off my chest....

Everything "works" around this place. I could grow in my grandma's combat boots "and it works".

Larf? You are misguided due to a lack of knowledge about plant processes, apical dominance, hormonal processes and obviously have never grown cannabis outdoors in full sun.

UB
We is most of the growers in Colorado who do it, we is most of the dispensary growers, Honestly they probably wouldn't hire you for failure to embrace new ways of growing. Notice how all of the sudden you bring up outdoors as a comparison when from the beginning this was put forward as an indoor under lights technique. It is amazing the misinformation you throw out there like you are some expert. What I can say is the growers who have taught me the way and their mentors before them including Ed Rosenthal might have a little more of a clue Uncle Ben. Not the first to see some of your suggestions for what they are. And I'm sure I won't be the last. Perhaps a side by side of the same clone in the same room would be a better example people can see the differences first hand. All I can say is try it for yourself to see the difference. But then again you can try Uncle bens method. However he is not an employee at a dispensary, he is not at the forefront of research in indoor growing of cannabis, he is not doing large volume growing of cannabis indoors trimming 70lbs a month as some of the people who have shown me this technique. But he does know how to grow trees and vines outdoors because he works at a garden center and has hours a day to post on a website.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
We is most of the growers in Colorado who do it, we is most of the dispensary growers, Honestly they probably wouldn't hire you for failure to embrace new ways of growing. Notice how all of the sudden you bring up outdoors as a comparison when from the beginning this was put forward as an indoor under lights technique. It is amazing the misinformation you throw out there like you are some expert. What I can say is the growers who have taught me the way and their mentors before them including Ed Rosenthal might have a little more of a clue Uncle Ben. Not the first to see some of your suggestions for what they are. And I'm sure I won't be the last. Perhaps a side by side of the same clone in the same room would be a better example people can see the differences first hand. All I can say is try it for yourself to see the difference. But then again you can try Uncle bens method. However he is not an employee at a dispensary, he is not at the forefront of research in indoor growing of cannabis, he is not doing large volume growing of cannabis indoors trimming 70lbs a month as some of the people who have shown me this technique. But he does know how to grow trees and vines outdoors because he works at a garden center and has hours a day to post on a website.
been attempted MANY times, Only to see the experiment end due to not being able to prove it works.
 

tekdc911

Well-Known Member
im not saying it works ....... but im not saying it doesnt ..... but my 400w HPS seems to be doing so much better at lighting up my soil now that i stripped the fan leaves :p
 

Pepe le skunk

Well-Known Member
What's interesting chuck is your posts history. Seems funny not many pictures of your extensive grow history, backed up with pictures to prove your ability. What is alarming is almost all of your posts seem to be opinion based. Go ahead and look at his post history folks. Think we found what they call a "troll" on the forum. Must be good buddies with uncle buck with a lot of time on your hands.
Especially with all of those points probably awarded half from your little troll group of friends. Interesting to say the least.
 

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
What's interesting chuck is your posts history. Seems funny not many pictures of your extensive grow history, backed up with pictures to prove your ability. What is alarming is almost all of your posts seem to be opinion based. Go ahead and look at his post history folks. Think we found what they call a "troll" on the forum. Must be good buddies with uncle buck with a lot of time on your hands.
Especially with all of those points probably awarded half from your little troll group of friends. Interesting to say the least.
Nice try, But everyone, whoever you think is paying attention to you, already knows how i operate, But that isn't the discussion here, although it was a feeble attempt on your part to distract from the original topic, I am glad you felt the need to research my history, a troll needs to know when he has someone right where he wants them.
 

DCobeen

Well-Known Member
Good morning all. I can only say that its your plants and you grow then the way you want. on a better note here is a flower to brighten your day fresh from my garden. Hope it brings you joy and happiness.
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
Just an experiment I guess. I did some reading on the subject and understand where both sides are coming from but I wanted to see for myself.if it works sweet if not I'll just know not to do that again.
You see I figure it this way; I'll try a bunch of different growing methods early on so I can perfect the style that best suits me. I'll update with some pics in a few days.

Till then happy growing!:weed:
Shit Man!!! There are not two sides, except for the real results of Botany and the fake out of Ganja Myths.

I would work on feeding and and not over watering.

(Experienced Growers Only) Controversial Defoliation Increases Marijuana Yields

by Keef Treez "The Defoliator"

Defoliation is an extreme marijuana growth technique. It's not to be done lightly.

In fact, the topic of defoliation is one of the most controversial subjects in the marijuana growing field. People on both sides defend their position vehemently.

I'm on the side that believe there is absolutely nothing stressful about defoliation or bending branches. Honestly, there is no way to achieve nearly a pound of buds from a 2-3 foot tall plant indoors, except using defoliation.

Opponents often have arguments like, "PLANTS NEED THOSE LEAVES! If they didn't, they wouldn't be there."

Or my all-time favorite, "I have a friend who used to grow, and he insists that will hurt the plant."

Yet the saddest part of all is how so few people are willing to look at the evidence.

In some ways, I almost would prefer the rest of the growing world keep up their ill-advised lollipopping, removing growing tips, and other low-yield techniques. The defoliation technique has been loudly condemned by "experienced" growers for decades. Nevertheless, I am determined to educate other growers about defoliating and let them see the results for themselves.

So let me start by giving you some picture proof that defoliation works (make sure you scroll down to see all of them!).

You see, I've been defoliating intensively for 30 years. I am now training plants to be 32" tall and 32" round and yielding 250-400 grams under 400 watt lamp.

Nebula Haze from GrowWeedEasy.com: Yes, that's right, he said 8-14 OUNCES of
buds of marijuana harvested off each short, easy-to-manage 32" tall plant, using
just a regular 400 watt HID grow light.


Here are two of my beauties (the one on the right needs a good plucking)





How-To Tutorial: The Controversial Technique of Defoliation
Despite all the evidence (I've posted hundreds of pictures and shown dozens of growers in person), there is still somehow so much skepticism about defoliation techniques. Growers, especially new growers, often just say variations of, "It's common sense, how could removing any part of the plant cause you to get higher yields?"

I recently attended an advanced seminar with a prominent fellow grower and got roundly booed when attempting to describe the defoliation technique, even with pictures showing dramatic benefits.

Unlike many other growers, I believe what's most important is studying how the plant actually grows, instead of assuming she grows how we think she should grow. Real experimentation and unbiased observers are the only way growers are going to learn how to get the best yields for the amount of time, money, and effort.

And it's true that some types of defoliation are brutal to the plants (such as when misguided growers removing all the leaves off extremely young marijuana plants), but other types of defoliation are actually hugely beneficial to increasing yields (I'll be showing you exactly what do do shortly).

And defoliation is beneficial for more than just marijuana, it also has been proven to increase yields for certain other types of crops. For example, it's well-known that cowpeas experience significant increases in yields when up to 50% of their leaves are defoliated during their flowering stage... (source)

This marijuana girl is 32" tall (the dimensions of this girl are 32"x32"x32" to be exact). She was intensely defoliated throughout her life.


And it's true that the real beauty of defoliation is difficult to translate in pictures and verbally.

But I will do my best to give you everything you need to start producing your own huge yields with marijuana defoliation.

But First, Let Me Show You About Increased Bud Production With Defoliation During the Flowering Stage

Before plucking





Immediately After Plucking





Just 4 days later, look at the incredible bud growth





Only 4 Days After That (after another defoliation session)



Are you beginning to see the power of defoliation?

So, you just reprint stuff. It doesn't make it true. Ganja Myths are from the Black market and are designed to keep prices up and competition down.

Your buds would have matured on the timeline no matter what, so that is "bad science." Good science is when you take 2 plants side by side. Screw with one and leave the other as the Control subject.

So, leave off the leave off.

And do real experiments. :)
 

Doer

Well-Known Member
What's interesting chuck is your posts history. Seems funny not many pictures of your extensive grow history, backed up with pictures to prove your ability. What is alarming is almost all of your posts seem to be opinion based. Go ahead and look at his post history folks. Think we found what they call a "troll" on the forum. Must be good buddies with uncle buck with a lot of time on your hands.
Especially with all of those points probably awarded half from your little troll group of friends. Interesting to say the least.
Sounds like you have self esteem problems.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
And also open to sky, a small detail you ignore.
How and where do I ignore that? Greenhouses usually allow for sunlight to enter yes... did I not post cloudy enough pictures? Would pics in which the sky is pitch black help...

Amsterdam, and that ain't no sunshine... but Aalsmeer (place with many greenhouses and flower auctions) 10 miles further.
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Doer

Well-Known Member
How and where do I ignore that? Greenhouses usually have open skies... did I not post cloudy enough pictures? Would pics in which the sky is pitch black help...
You were talking about the wonder lighting, remember? 4200 lights.

The Sun provides 10K foot candles at sea level in the afternoon and that is the main portion of energy. He uses those lights for supplements. 1000w HPS gives sun power at 26 inches.

Photons from HPS go far, but the spread out, so density of Photons in a closet grow can never be near this greenhouse, so it is not a comparison at all.

He uses those lights for lengthening the grow day and not as the primary source of light.
 

Sativied

Well-Known Member
@Doer: you're wrong. See pics. Glass city goes on 24 hours a day. The one with 4200 was just one of thousands of examples. "The Netherlands is a world leader in agriculture and, after the United States, the largest exporter of agricultural products in the world," with relatively very very little space.

Besides that, your point is moot. I'm obviously not suggesting to hang bulbs that high. The point was none of that light is wasted.

but they spread out
Reflective walls....

Which in combination with a proper reflector hood (which is extended by the reflective walls) and the surface that needs to be lit determines the distance. NOT a loss of light one over a feet or so. For a gavita indoors in a suitable size closet the minimum distance is 90 cm. That's straight from a gavita employee...



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Stick to trying to prove defoliators wrong...
 
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