giving defoliation during flower a try
- Thread starter Gucc1M3ng
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DCobeen
Well-Known Member
I hope you are not talking to me. I did already do lollipop if you check my threads you willl see i have. I stopped cause when 3 of my friends who each have 20 plus years experience each tell me not to i have to listen. I am sorry but i trust these guys. I have not done a side by side and am not gonna anytime soon. Dont hate me cause i also called a botanist friend and he told me the same thing, leave the leaves the fuck alone in flower. he told me in veg take all the big ones off if i want, fat ass stems to support bigger buds will happen 2 weeks before flip latest. So i have to listen. yeah i am irish mostly and hard headed. I cant argue with them anymore. They won.
CaretakerDad
Well-Known Member
I GIVE UP!!!!!!!! I am no longer a "defolihater". I am setting aside years of growing experience and chucking all of that expensive "book learnin'" and have seen the light. WTF was I thinking????? As you can see I have defoliated and trimmed the root ball ( I read that in another thread). My understanding....er......feeling (sorry it will take some adjustment) is that I could get 2 - 7 times the original yield.
2 questions: Have I exposed the bud sites sufficiently? And does anybody have the number of a good AN or other nutrient line salesman?
2 questions: Have I exposed the bud sites sufficiently? And does anybody have the number of a good AN or other nutrient line salesman?
DCobeen
Well-Known Member
lm
lmao now that is a fat ass stem bro. I am just tired of fighting about what is right with defoliating. I first have to get a plant to finish all green. now i have had 2 finish green but that was AIS/hydro soil. In reg growing i am having the lower leaves die so for me right now i dont have to defoliate since they are doing it all by them selves.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
How many lower leaves are you losing by harvest? If alot, you probably don't have your nutrition down pat. Are you hitting exclusively with bloom foods, because, "everyone is doing it."
If you understood botany, the issue of defoliating would be moot. It's not like listening to us seasoned growers, it's not doing it in the first place because you understand what makes a plant tick. Kinda like my negative position on SCROG when someone asks "well, have you ever tried it?" No, I'm a simple man and will not be a slave to my plants.
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Just went back and caught this....interesting stuff but it's hard for me to wrap my head around this. One has to observe it first hand and discuss with a tech to understand the "method of their madness". These guys are not dummies, they apply science to the nth degree because they have to....it's all about profit, time management, energy costs, labor cost, etc.
I too am a greenhouse grower raising tropicals just those folks. I'd love to know what kind of glazing, covering they put on those houses. The contents of my greenhouse now is avocado, citrus, pitaya (dragon fruit), mango, maters, herbs and some perennials. It will cost me money but I'm about to change out the north roof to a much more transparent covering.
UB
Ninjabowler
Well-Known Member
Liar lol, youll never stop.
the trick is to do what works for you as a grower. Do your own tests on different plants and see how they react to how you manipulate them. Top some, but not others, sog some, outdoor some, undercut some, pound some with N, and if your set up works with defoliating...then letter fly. 
Ninjabowler
Well-Known Member
Then dont give advice to growers that are doing it. Scrogs awesome. Its too bad you dont know anything about it. You might learn something about marijuana if you tried it
DCobeen
Well-Known Member
On the big ass plants not to bad ( they have allot left) but the smaller ones i dont have many left. I do feed FP plus bloom nutes in rotation. This is all from that MicroKote. It frucked my moms up bro. I am not worried as they only have 1 month left max. I will update pics on my round2 thread. I will never use MK again. It has damaged this strain and when i run it again I will start fresh seeds.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
MicroKote "fucked" up your moms? Been using a similar product for many years and never had a problem. It does what it's supposed to do, create a super efficient fibrous rootball. If you applied it correctly it should help, not hurt. Witness - https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/
Something else going on me thinks.
Something else going on me thinks.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
What I do know is it's a noob thing. Got nothing to learn here but how to be another forum fool working his ass off for nothing.Then dont give advice to growers that are doing it. Scrogs awesome. Its too bad you dont know anything about it. You might learn something about marijuana if you tried it
And don't preach to me, son.
Ninjabowler
Well-Known Member
Ben if you dont want to defend yourself and butt heads then dont tell growers to not do what they need to for better product. Not everyone on this site lives on the californian coast with 1000 acres of tucked away real estate and green houses as far as the eye can see. Some of them have one closet....less than six feet of space between the floor and bulb, one seed, and one light and are trying to make that plant be all it can be.
Sounds like a job for scrog or lst to me. Oooor would you rather they use uncle bens topping technique and flower at 12 inches cause their running sour D or Malawi and itll head butt the light if you dont train and screen it. I helped a wee fucker one time grow in a cab half the size of your fridge and he rocked that shit like Cleveland crack.
If he didnt do "crazy" things with his grow like lst and screen hed have had two plants....run 12/12 from seed. And a couple measly grams to smoke, instead he filled that box and now he has decent grows that produce. Hed tell you what were all telling you, theres a time and a place for it Ben, and you can take your theory and plant it
but whats funny is that you would, hed say pound sand old man, and youd tell him that he like everyone else, is stupid for even considering it. *face palm**double face palm* CaretakerDad
Well-Known Member
Doing "less with less" an interesting concept. Moving out of your Moms house would be a great start to a decent grow for you and the wee fucker.Ben if you dont want to defend yourself and butt heads then dont tell growers to not do what they need to for better product. Not everyone on this site lives on the californian coast with 1000 acres of tucked away real estate and green houses as far as the eye can see. Some of them have one closet....less than six feet of space between the floor and bulb, one seed, and one light and are trying to make that plant be all it can be.
Sounds like a job for scrog or lst to me. Oooor would you rather they use uncle bens topping technique and flower at 12 inches cause their running sour D or Malawi and itll head butt the light if you dont train and screen it. I helped a wee fucker one time grow in a cab half the size of your fridge and he rocked that shit like Cleveland crack.
If he didnt do "crazy" things with his grow like lst and screen hed have had two plants....run 12/12 from seed. And a couple measly grams to smoke, instead he filled that box and now he has decent grows that produce. Hed tell you what were all telling you, theres a time and a place for it Ben, and you can take your theory and plant it
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Who defines a "better product" ? Most folks are sucker bets and will do what the other blind folk tell them to do. As an example, I played historian a few minutes ago at the Riddle site and posted the C99 story for the benefit of those who never heard it, plus I gifted one excellent grower a C99 backcross I did and original Bros. Grimm In/Out Mix. Cannabis Cup judges bought off, fraud in cannabis products, rip off med stores.... I've seen and heard it all.
SLY's Take:
here is my take on the Cindy story. i DO NOT believe this is a JH hybrid. i don't think it has any JH in it at all, and i've worked with this plant longer and more intensly than anyone other than soul. yes, soul got it out of a 2 gram bag of JH he bought but i don't believe there was JH in that package regardless of what was on the label. i think the coffeeshop, like many other dealers around. put whatever name on the packages the public wants to hear.
I do SOB, cause it's easy. I'm a simple man. When I grow outdoors, it's also very simple. I drop transplants pot and all into a 3" deep hole in native soil, the pot has a slow release food in it so I never have to hassle with fertilizing - 18-4-9 with micros, I run a 3 gph emitter to the pot which runs for 2 hours off my regular drip lines and I'm done. Basically no cost. I don't buy seeds, I make up my soil in bulk, the sun's free and so is the well water. The only problems I have is with high winds and storms. I break the stretch with paclo and if there are fungus or mite pressures, deal with them.
"What??????? No bloom food?" You ask. Dat's right.
Results? Very high yields with friends scrambling to get "mah product".
Also, I been defending myself from know-it-all pinheads for 15 fuckin' years. For me sometimes it's not worth my time as they won't get it anyhow....witness this thread. Now, if you're lame enough enough to be growing in a confined space like a computer case (almost as bad as a small tent) then you do what you have to do.
Uncle Ben
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Sativied
Well-Known Member
Let me illustrate my point:
The light's density decreases because it spreads out. The higher you put it, the wider surface it covers and the less dense the light is on the surface. That is not an issue when there are plants next to it, with their own light that also overlaps. Above are 3 lights in a row, but imagine what happens when you get 3x3 or 100x40... an even spread of the produced lumen.
Obviously there's a surface, and there is an amount of light that those specific crops need (whether that's to supplement or not is irrelevant). Those are a given. If more lumen per sqft is required, more bulbs are hung closer together.
The bottom half of the image shows a closet/tent, that part you lose from the light spreading out you reflect back. Hang it too high and too much light will bounce too often back and forth between the walls. Hanging it any lower than whatever gives an even spread is simply unnecessary and with a 1k gavita won't lead to happy plants.
I actually cut and copied and mirrored the light that reflects from those walls in photoshop, but could have cut out the center part of the 3 lights example as well. And that is the point.
I'd be happy to see if I can find something about the type of glazing they use, I'll try to find some reliable info later today. Keeping the greenhouses warm is a major energy cost, I suspect that plays a large role in the type of glazing used as well.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
My crosses are based on Cannalope haze, which according to DNA genetics is O haze x mexican sativa, but according to others is also a C99 cross. I don't know, frankly, I don't care a whole lot either. When you're not using landraces, you're likely using something that is based on the same old IBLs anyway (NL#5, O Haze, Skunk #1, etc).
I looked into its history as well, and I don't agree with SLY. Although it might not be from JH for all I know, if I remember correctly he bought that bag at sensi seeds, when the laws where less strict enforced here and there coffeeshop industry wasn't such a mess yet. That coffeeshop was not "like many other dealers around" and while I'm generally cynical, I don't think chances there was something else in that bag than what's on the label are as large as SLY assumes. They didn't buy it from some street dealers. There also wasn't a whole lot of variation back then, if it's not based on JH, it's likely one of the other classics and if they smoked those (despite the lack of variation nobody went to Amsterdam and bought only JH back then) they would have seen and known the difference. I worked in a coffeeshop two decades ago when it was still just Skunk/Super Skunk, Northern Light, Haze (no flavors or hybrids), Hindu Kush, Afghani and actually remember the back then 'new' Jack Herrer being added to the menus.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I figured the lighting might be like that but you really have to pay them a visit to get the whole picture. Thanks for the info. I ordered way back when and as you mentioned all those varieties were the only ones available. Now the pollen chuckers have moved the furniture around and given the stuff different names. My avatar is supposedly a Positronics JH when Wernard was doing his thing. We, the old timers trying to get our hands on Dutch (American NW) stock ordered via a fellow by the name of Jock. This was before the internet forums. I ordered Haze and Posi JH and one turned out as blue and purple as can be - blueberry. Not much potency on that one either. That proves they didn't give a "Dam" about variety back then, at least for me. My Sensi Skunk came from the Dam via Sweden. It was sent in a VCR tape case.
Because it was so wordy I clipped Sly's text. Here's the rest in which he explained why it isn't a JH based on flowering time.
....... there is NO way IMHO that a cross pollination with any unknown father plant could bring a JH flowering time down to 49 days. the fact that there were other females out of the same seed batch that had the same flowering time shows it was not and freak. i worked with sensi's JH for several years, so i speak from first hand experience. Cindy is not even close to the JH in flowering time or any other JH traits. i've been breeding for years and i have NEVER known a plants flowering time to be brought down that much with one crossing. IMHO soul stumbled across a gem in the rough and was bright enough to know what he had and was expereinced enough to know what had to be done to it to bring it's full potential out. since i've never seen anything that even resembles cindy on the market i'd say even the person who grew the bud out didn't realize what he had.
Because it was so wordy I clipped Sly's text. Here's the rest in which he explained why it isn't a JH based on flowering time.
....... there is NO way IMHO that a cross pollination with any unknown father plant could bring a JH flowering time down to 49 days. the fact that there were other females out of the same seed batch that had the same flowering time shows it was not and freak. i worked with sensi's JH for several years, so i speak from first hand experience. Cindy is not even close to the JH in flowering time or any other JH traits. i've been breeding for years and i have NEVER known a plants flowering time to be brought down that much with one crossing. IMHO soul stumbled across a gem in the rough and was bright enough to know what he had and was expereinced enough to know what had to be done to it to bring it's full potential out. since i've never seen anything that even resembles cindy on the market i'd say even the person who grew the bud out didn't realize what he had.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
A document (from again the same university) about the ambition to create climate neutral greenhouses in 2020 mentions the use of diffuse glass (better spread) and double glazing (assuming for the same reason I got them in my home, keep the cold out and the warmth in).
The type of diffuse glass used lets through as much light as clear glazing and according to research (again same uni) allows for 25% more plant (I assume upwards...). Some greenhouses chalk their glazing during the few months we get sun, the diffuse glazing is an alternative to that but without losing daylight.
A lighting test (led+hps hybrid) with diffuse glazing showed that even during the winter, when most PAR comes from the bulbs and not the light, using diffuse glazing led to 5% more yield (tomatoes).
Extra branches under diffuse glazing. Less stress at the top, better light penetration ensuring all leaves contribute maximally to photosynthesis. Quality is better too (no hard light directly on the fruits).
Hard to find anything related that doesn't talk about the diffuse glazing trend.
Some use polycarbonate or acrylate (not sure I translated those correctly...) instead of glazing, probably cheaper not better.
Another thing, AR coating (anti-reflection, to reflect the light back that reflects up, also deals with light pollution), the one created by groglass.com has shown to increase the amount of light on the crops with 8%.
Found some research comparing high to low greenhouses which explains most want high greenhouses as they are more suitable for artificial lighting... despite being more costly to keep warm (unless using the AR coating with makes the height less relevant). Quite a few pros and cons, having to hang lights higher isn't one of them.
Quite a bit of research that shows the advantage of LED, in particular using LED for supplemental lighting, i.e a hybrid setup (SON-T hps with led)... let's not give the LED folks any more ammo
Sativied
Well-Known Member
It won't be until next spring, but I will pay a visit to a tomato greenhouse specifically and see if I can get some more info.
Ha, that makes it an even better avatar. Positronics... a name I'm guessing most kids nowadays haven't even heard of. They had the first growshop, they were the ones that show how HPS could be used to grow. I have a nearly 30 year old grow guide from them, one of the 5000, borrow from the library as a kid and forgot to return.
I'm not convinced by SLY's comments. Even though they are IBLs they have a wide genetic profile compared to the crossed-crosses nowadays. It's not nearly as impossible as Sly claims the offspring had a significantly reduced flower time. If any strain based on those IBLs can be 8 week flowering it means there's a particular gene combination of that same genepool that was available in those IBLs that allows for the flowering time. Also, if the genes contributed by the unknown father were dominant for more genes than the JH, there doesn't necessarily have to be a whole lot of JH visible as in it expressing as the same phenotype as JH.
It's not extremely unlikely either, just like finding a "rough gem" when you re-mix those classics.
The only long flowering ingredient in the Jack Herrer is the O Haze. The shiva skunk, Nl#5, skunk#1, are short flowering strains. Crossing that to a shiva skunk will result (also) in plants with a flower time closer to that shiva skunk and it's short flowering parents than the O haze.
Speaking of Wernard, do you know Viking? Viking (afghani indica) x Skunk = Holland's hope, takes up to 60 days. 25% of Hollands hope is purple, aka Purple Power (some of the few outdoor strains that used to be sold here in coffee shops).
Skunk x Viking is also Top44. 44 from from 44 days, as in less than 7 weeks flowering period. That's 15 days less from just creating another mix of the same old gene pool.
It completely possible they mislabeled the pack... especially back then budtenders were stoners too
So again, not claiming it factually is JH cause I simply can't prove that, but unless someone has a more realistic hypothesis that can be proven SLY's comments for me change nothing about Soul's.
*Mission Accomplished*
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