Sativied's Picture Journal
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thump easy
Well-Known Member
Dang that is some cool plants n pics
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Got roughly 3 weeks to go, maybe 4 for some. Since it's F2, I except some variation in flower time an some were added later so transitioned later.
This is nr x, she's no longer a real player. Nothing wrong with it, just not the best.
Nr 19, seems to be the most frosty, but apart from that not great. Seems a little sensitive too.
Nr 20, not exactly what I was going for but interesting nonetheless, it has the tall structure of the chunk, but looks like it will create CH-like buds (almost curly pistils instead of spiky). Not the most frosty, but added last, transitioned last, and catching up fast.
AAO. A bit too dark. They all get the same nutes, this one needs less but the above doesn't...
Nr 22, the swan. She has colas over a feet tall that are filling up quite nicely.
They are all seeded with the same male, at the moment the most likely parent for the F3 run is the last one, nr 22, but the race isn't over yet.
This is nr x, she's no longer a real player. Nothing wrong with it, just not the best.
Nr 19, seems to be the most frosty, but apart from that not great. Seems a little sensitive too.
Nr 20, not exactly what I was going for but interesting nonetheless, it has the tall structure of the chunk, but looks like it will create CH-like buds (almost curly pistils instead of spiky). Not the most frosty, but added last, transitioned last, and catching up fast.
AAO. A bit too dark. They all get the same nutes, this one needs less but the above doesn't...
Nr 22, the swan. She has colas over a feet tall that are filling up quite nicely.
They are all seeded with the same male, at the moment the most likely parent for the F3 run is the last one, nr 22, but the race isn't over yet.
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
good lookin set up and nice plants!! love closet breeders!! we come out with better seeds than half the seed banks!!!
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Just a few more pics, no news. About 2-3 weeks to go. Wish I could fast forward and get started on next round.
Nr 22, swan, hoping and expecting it to fill up some more, this part on the pic is about 15" tall.
Starting to get heavy too. Looks a LOT like the CH compact/non-haze pheno bud structure.
Nr x. One of the tallest, straight under hps bulb but holding up ok. She has a little more space than the rest, or less bud sites that is. Not topped either so this is the main bud.
Seeds are turning out quite nicely:
Nr 22, swan, hoping and expecting it to fill up some more, this part on the pic is about 15" tall.
Starting to get heavy too. Looks a LOT like the CH compact/non-haze pheno bud structure.
Nr x. One of the tallest, straight under hps bulb but holding up ok. She has a little more space than the rest, or less bud sites that is. Not topped either so this is the main bud.
Seeds are turning out quite nicely:
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
seed looks very plantable.lol
thump easy
Well-Known Member
Fuck man I thought I was good man!!! MAN YOUR FUCKING GOOD!!!!!!!
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
your plants speak for themselves and they are happy!!
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Hot Diggity Sog
Well-Known Member
Damn dood. What day are these last pics at?
I can't speak for others, but I'm willing to bet your fan leaves will beat the shit out of most of the bags I see going around.
I can't speak for others, but I'm willing to bet your fan leaves will beat the shit out of most of the bags I see going around.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I think I'm going to do a round of CHxCH next. Same quad CH male as the P (chunk x ch) from which I'm growing the F2 now.
While I see plenty of mature seeds on some of the main P F3 parent candidates and I could actually plant the F3 before the F2 is completely done, and pick the seeds of the most likely candidates and then use only the seedlings of the F2 females that turn out best, I could also do a round of CHxCH in between sort of. I got about 2-3 weeks to go on this one, then need the flower closet for a week drying. If I pop CHxCH seeds this weekend, they will show their sex in about a month. Long story short, by delaying the P F3 run for about 5 weeks I can do an entire CHxCH run in between. Basically run CHxCH and ChunkxCH (P) perpetually.
This would give me some variation in my jars, will allow me to make progress on the whorled line (CHxCH), and possibly something to create an F1 hybrid with (CHxCH stable X ChunkxCH stable). Since the 49-plant swc setup failed and I like to keep it simple, I think I'm going to do a round on soil. Still have plenty of soil nutrients (organic), pots, etc. I've grown on soil before, but not in many smaller pots, so it may be wise to do that first with some of the many CHxCH seeds I have instead of the F3 I'm creating now. On top of that, I'm probably going to switch to a Philips Elite Agro 930 bulb (thanks @GroErr for the convincing journal), probably two of them after that (and rebuild closet from 4x4 to 3x6).
I've already been popping CHxCH seeds for a while to find what I refer to as the strongest tri-whorlers. The main male candidate at the moment is the one below:
Left seems bleached from flash. Right the top, which I cut about a week ago.
It's possible I will find a better male, have to flower it out first of course, but I will be mainly looking for tri-whorled females, and then put the population backcrossing approach I described here in practice.
While I see plenty of mature seeds on some of the main P F3 parent candidates and I could actually plant the F3 before the F2 is completely done, and pick the seeds of the most likely candidates and then use only the seedlings of the F2 females that turn out best, I could also do a round of CHxCH in between sort of. I got about 2-3 weeks to go on this one, then need the flower closet for a week drying. If I pop CHxCH seeds this weekend, they will show their sex in about a month. Long story short, by delaying the P F3 run for about 5 weeks I can do an entire CHxCH run in between. Basically run CHxCH and ChunkxCH (P) perpetually.
This would give me some variation in my jars, will allow me to make progress on the whorled line (CHxCH), and possibly something to create an F1 hybrid with (CHxCH stable X ChunkxCH stable). Since the 49-plant swc setup failed and I like to keep it simple, I think I'm going to do a round on soil. Still have plenty of soil nutrients (organic), pots, etc. I've grown on soil before, but not in many smaller pots, so it may be wise to do that first with some of the many CHxCH seeds I have instead of the F3 I'm creating now. On top of that, I'm probably going to switch to a Philips Elite Agro 930 bulb (thanks @GroErr for the convincing journal), probably two of them after that (and rebuild closet from 4x4 to 3x6).
I've already been popping CHxCH seeds for a while to find what I refer to as the strongest tri-whorlers. The main male candidate at the moment is the one below:
Left seems bleached from flash. Right the top, which I cut about a week ago.
It's possible I will find a better male, have to flower it out first of course, but I will be mainly looking for tri-whorled females, and then put the population backcrossing approach I described here in practice.
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
hey sativ, whats the diference from f1-f4? i know f4 doesnt have the hybrid vigour but is it a stabilized seed at f4?? i ask because i just bought avalon from next generation and need to know if i need to backcross it or if i can breed w/ it right away if its already stabil..when u get a chance i put up a pic journal see what u think??
Sativied
Well-Known Member
See my replies in these threads first:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/seed-generations-f1-2-3-bx1-2-etc-info.841001/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/why-dont-seedbanks-state-the-if-the-seeds-are-f1-f2-f3-f4-ect.839749/page-2
Opposed to popular belief, maybe because of that crap cannabis breeding book, backcrossing doesn't automatically lead to stable for breeding. Backcrossing has very specific purposes, such as breeding "a" trait from an otherwise not so great pheno into a stable line, saving the genes (but not the necessarily the genotypes) from a clone only strain, or cubing / population backcrossing (which can lead to stability but only for the traits that are homozygous in the recurrent parent). Creating a stable homozygous line using backcrossing requires having already a stable homozygous IBL. It's like chicken and egg...
Homozygous stable lines are not the result of backcrossing, not the result of population breeding (mating the best with the best and cull the rest a la heirloom breeding) but the result of what actual breeders have been doing since a little over 100 years, pure line breeding. Cross two of those pure lines and you get a true F1 hybrid, where the F1 means more than just being the first offspring generation. Most of the popular veggies, fruits, and ornamental plants were created like that.
In the cannabis industry, it's like growing, people (think they can) make up their own ways and don't care about "modern plant breeding" based on Mendel's work.
The truth is, many F1s in the cannabis industry don't have the hybrid vigor / heterosis either because they are not the result of crossing two "homozygous" IBLs. They are F1s, but not really F1 hybrids.
The best approach depends all on your goals. Breeding starts with defining clear goals. If that is creating a new variety you can use an existing strain and backcross a trait in to that (make you own Kush/haze/skunk or w/e variety), or if you want to create that differs more than a few traits from the original parents follow these steps: generate variety (e.g. by creating an F2 or double cross from two different F1s), in that variety hunt for the best phenos, and then try to reproduce those phenos consistently (which is really what it is all about) by selecting and stabilizing "genotypes". Figuring out the genotypes opposed to just mating phenos is THE hard part especially with complete dominant traits (genotype AA and Aa are both the same pheno, while you want to cross AA with AA to get only AA and breed out 'a' and lock in AA.)
That last thing is what leads to homozygous stable 'traits', which has to be done for all relevant traits. At what generation all the relevant traits are stable depends on the selection and as I showed here can theoretically occur in F3 already: https://www.rollitup.org/t/when-is-it-considered-a-new-strain.842812/#post-10907966 That would require few, preferably just one, traits of interest and a lot of plants. In practice it requires more generations. As I mentioned in another thread, you're not supposed to stabilize an F1 hybrid but its parents. A valid reason to take F1 to F2 is to generate variation from which to find something new to breed stable, or to breed something stable to create an F1 hybrid again. Breeding stable starts at the soonest at F3.
To answer your specific situation, I wouldn't inbreed/stabilize an F4 without "seeing" how stable it is. Cross it that test run already to see how traits inherit (dominant/recessive). The easiest way to test for stability is to self it. The result should have no pheno variation for it to be a true bred homozygous plant. In reality you will always see some variation, i.e. one may be a better yielder or a bit more frosty, but for the relevant traits (if breeding for taste that is taste and smell for example) there should be zero pheno variation. If there is, it means one or more genotypes in that F4 plant you selfed is heterozygous (for example Aa) and not homozygous (AA or aa). By observing the ratio of the variation you can gauge the genotypes and how they inherit. Needless to say, breeding with just a handful of plants is not possible. You can still make some fine beans of course, but a stable line...
And that's where backcrossing comes into play again. By backcrossing (multiple plants from the offspring) to a plant, that offspring will become more homozygous every back cross population for at least the traits that are homozygous in the recurrent plant, and can be done with relatively few plants. If for example you self that F4 and get very little variation, it would make a good candidate to backcross traits into.
Self-proclaimed breeders occasionally bring up Mendel and Punnet, but what they should really be looking into is
Wilhelm Johannsen's work, the Genotype-Phenotype Distinction, his work on pure-line breeding and the discovery of hybrid vigor...
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Just noticed I already got 1 that is female. Vegged (well, hardly, more like saved) for about a month under 3x18w T8. It shares the light with others and gets roughly 500 lumen so 4 watt LED should do
Super tight internodes and trichs visible from a distance. Will definitely get to play next round.
TheChemist77
Well-Known Member
thanks for the info!! ill see if its stable by selfing it!!!
thump easy
Well-Known Member
I want some seeds wen will they be available?
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I honestly have no idea when or even if. I expect to spend at least another 9 months on the P cross, possibly longer. I'd love to see others grow a strain I created but only if it's great and ready. So far I just have breeding stock, still have to create a stable line from that. If that works out, I will let you know cause it would be awesome to see what you do with it.
Some fresh trich shots: (nr22)
Same plant, still in the lead, loving the orange pistils.
Another smaller (relatively
) bud. I expect it will foxtail a little, it has a bit hazy bud structure. Considering the high calyx to leaf ratio I can't say I mind, it's similar to the F1.
Not my best pic:
Nr 20 is less frosty but... added to flower closet last transitioned last, it was a replacement for a male that was in tubes. Gave it little space, trimmed a lot of branches so sort of the opposite of topping... it's massive and super compact. I try not to grow such large colas because of the high humidity especially this time of year, but she's near the fan and intake so I have good hopes.
Late Night, yield sucks, not really worth growing except for the trich pics. I'm keeping the seeds to maybe someday borrow the taste/smell genes, in addition to the frost.
