The real racists.

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
  1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
  2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
  3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
  4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
  5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
  6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
  7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
  8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
  9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
  10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. God as we understand him could be a doorknob, it is not a religious cult you goofball. It all relates back to step 3
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
The courts can say anything they like, it is not religious if anything it's spiritual and there's a huge difference between religion and spirituality. I know Buddhist in AA MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS SO WHAT RELIGION IS AA?
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
You do realise these court rulings are a result of inmates objecting to being forced to attend AA meetings and suing the state. Just because it mentions God does not make it religious,
So if it's religious what religion is it,
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
If you go thru rehab
You are forced to go. I never trolled AA. I have been thru AA. It's a religous organization. Started from a prayer group. Dr. Bob never stopped drinking. AA is a cult. And courts have ruled it is a religous organization.

You're in denial
You trolled it on the Internet didn't you?
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
So now you've done your research and shown some courts have ruled it a religion, let's move on to cult because honestly I don't care if it's spiritually based and if some judge who has nothing at all to do with AA calls it a religion then there's a legal precedence I want proof it's a cult, Because that's actually my major objection To your statement, now remember I showed you 8 reasons it's not a cult by definition of a cult so your job is now to back up your assertion that it is a cult.
Remember you have to prove it on the official definitions of what is a cult. I will concede however it can be very loosely classified as a religion but even that's quite flimsy but ok they mention God or a higher power 5 times in the twelve steps even though your higher power can be a lightbulb.
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
No ive been thru it.
In person. with the shitty coffee and the meetings and everything else involved
And more than one group. So dont even try to go there.

It's a religous organization no matter how you frame it
Ok I was under the impression you and uncle buck trolled them together, didn't you say you did earlier? If not my mistake.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Ok I was under the impression you and uncle buck trolled them together, didn't you say you did earlier? If not my mistake.
you are mistaken
AA is a cult/religion
If you leave AA what is the general conscensus of it's members about your outcome in recovery?
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
From the AA literature, "Unless each A.A. member follows ... our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. ...We must obey certain principles, or we die." Group members are under the threat of death to work the Steps. Step number twelve calls for members to "carry the message," which means recruit others. "Each group's primary purpose is to carry the message..."
The group is preoccupied with making money.
Individual twelve step groups are not preoccupied with making money. However, in the broader perspective of the treatment industry, the bottom line is of primary importance. "Counselors", whose only qualification is often group membership, as well as other industry employees, work for less than in comparative fields because they believe they are doing "God's work" in the indoctrination centers. Those who answer the phones at treatment centers are often on commission. Recently hitting the news in the Los Angeles Times are stories about massive fraud involving government money in Southern California half-way houses.
The group is focused on a living charismatic leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
Bill Wilson, the founder of AA, is held in great reverence. His words are quoted as the final, irrevocable answer to all questions of doctrine. Many meeting rooms have pictures of "Bill W." and "Dr. Bob" displayed on both sides of the podium around which the AA service usually revolves. In Mexico, the pictures are saluted with hand raised at a 45 degree angle, palm held outward.
Bill Wilson, the founder of AA, is held in great reverence. His words are quoted as the final, irrevocable answer to all questions of doctrine. Many meeting rooms have pictures of "Bill W." and "Dr. Bob" displayed on both sides of the podium around which the AA service usually revolves. In Mexico, the pictures are saluted with hand raised at a 45 degree angle, palm held outward.
The fact Bill Wilson is dead is often used as a reason AA is not a cult. However, if Reverend Moon should die, will the Moonies overnight not be a cult?
Questioning, doubt and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Disagreeing with twelve step doctrine is considered a disease symptom. The response to disagreement with doctrine or elders can run the gamut from patronization to threats to shunning. In "treatment," disagreement can result in "the hot seat" and other forms of humiliation and abuse.
Mind-numbing techniques (for example: meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group or its leader(s).
Step Eleven specifically addresses meditation. Thought-stopping techniques are also used. New recruits are frequently admonished for their "unspiritual" criticism of doctrine or elder authority with "Take what you want and leave the rest," "Sit down, shut up and learn something," and other slogans. Anyone who continues to voice criticism is likely to be shunned by the group.
The group's leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, to change jobs, to get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, how much and what type of makeup to put on, how to discipline children, etc.)
It is the norm for "sponsors" to dictate all these things to their "babies." In the groups, one is to turn one's "will and life over to the care of God." There is no distinction made in AA theology between AA and God, so refusal to turn one's "will and life" over to the group is very much equivalent to defying God. In the groups, "God" requires suppression of normal human emotion. (e.g. Anger "when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit. ...we drink again. And for us, to drink is to die.")
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
The "Big Book," a sacred text, tells how Bill Wilson was planning to "save" the world. Members, being "spiritually awake," believe they have special knowledge of God that "normies," due to their never having the disease in question and never having worked the Steps, don't have.
The group has a polarized, "we-they" mentality that causes conflict with the wider society.
The groups believe that members are inherently different. There are "alcoholics" and "normies." "Normies" can't understand alcoholics. "Only another alcoholic can understand." This is true in all twelve step groups, all of which build a fortress mentality. They are, however, very careful not to openly engage in conflict. They are to always show "Humility," which means that, even though they have special knowledge of God and know better than others, they are to never argue. This together with "Anonymity," is at the core of their ability to infiltrate.
The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
There is no accountability for any leader in any of the groups. For example, an Elder with 35 years told a newcomer, a young man, his sobriety was no good because he was taking medication for high blood pressure. The newcomer, on the advice of the Elder, quit his medication, had a stroke, and is now crippled for life. Was the Elder held accountable to anyone? No. Are elders ever? No.
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means (for example: collecting money for bogus charities) that members would have considered unethical before joining the group.
The members of the groups are so restricted in their ability to think that they often engage in dishonest behavior without even being aware of it. For example, Elders will "let God speak" through them, telling the congregation at meetings how wonderful life is in the groups as a result of working the steps, and later, at after-meeting coffee, tell how they have been contemplating suicide but didn't mention it because they didn't want to confuse the newcomers.
Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family, friends, and personal pre-group goals and interests.
The most outstanding public example of this is Rosanne Barr, who publicly denounces her parents. On the more mundane level, family members of a grouper are considered sick too, and if they resist "help," the grouper may be advised to abandon his family.
The group's leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
Guilt is only secondary to fear as a motivating factor for group members. The manipulation of guilt is identical to the Red Chinese Communist "brainwashing" techniques. Members must make written confessions of their character defects and an important part of meetings is "sharing" for confession.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
New members are to attend "90 meetings in 90 day." Since all the diseases are considered "spiritual diseases," and the groups don't claim to cure any of them, a member must stay a member, attend meetings and work to convert others for the rest of his life.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
Even when not required, the results of indoctrination are usually a narrowing of a grouper's relationships to only other groupers. Only other group members can "understand."
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
From the AA literature, "Unless each A.A. member follows ... our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. ...We must obey certain principles, or we die." Group members are under the threat of death to work the Steps. Step number twelve calls for members to "carry the message," which means recruit others. "Each group's primary purpose is to carry the message..."
The group is preoccupied with making money.
Individual twelve step groups are not preoccupied with making money. However, in the broader perspective of the treatment industry, the bottom line is of primary importance. "Counselors", whose only qualification is often group membership, as well as other industry employees, work for less than in comparative fields because they believe they are doing "God's work" in the indoctrination centers. Those who answer the phones at treatment centers are often on commission. Recently hitting the news in the Los Angeles Times are stories about massive fraud involving government money in Southern California half-way houses.
The group is focused on a living charismatic leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
Bill Wilson, the founder of AA, is held in great reverence. His words are quoted as the final, irrevocable answer to all questions of doctrine. Many meeting rooms have pictures of "Bill W." and "Dr. Bob" displayed on both sides of the podium around which the AA service usually revolves. In Mexico, the pictures are saluted with hand raised at a 45 degree angle, palm held outward.
Bill Wilson, the founder of AA, is held in great reverence. His words are quoted as the final, irrevocable answer to all questions of doctrine. Many meeting rooms have pictures of "Bill W." and "Dr. Bob" displayed on both sides of the podium around which the AA service usually revolves. In Mexico, the pictures are saluted with hand raised at a 45 degree angle, palm held outward.
The fact Bill Wilson is dead is often used as a reason AA is not a cult. However, if Reverend Moon should die, will the Moonies overnight not be a cult?
Questioning, doubt and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Disagreeing with twelve step doctrine is considered a disease symptom. The response to disagreement with doctrine or elders can run the gamut from patronization to threats to shunning. In "treatment," disagreement can result in "the hot seat" and other forms of humiliation and abuse.
Mind-numbing techniques (for example: meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group or its leader(s).
Step Eleven specifically addresses meditation. Thought-stopping techniques are also used. New recruits are frequently admonished for their "unspiritual" criticism of doctrine or elder authority with "Take what you want and leave the rest," "Sit down, shut up and learn something," and other slogans. Anyone who continues to voice criticism is likely to be shunned by the group.
The group's leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, to change jobs, to get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, how much and what type of makeup to put on, how to discipline children, etc.)
It is the norm for "sponsors" to dictate all these things to their "babies." In the groups, one is to turn one's "will and life over to the care of God." There is no distinction made in AA theology between AA and God, so refusal to turn one's "will and life" over to the group is very much equivalent to defying God. In the groups, "God" requires suppression of normal human emotion. (e.g. Anger "when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit. ...we drink again. And for us, to drink is to die.")
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
The "Big Book," a sacred text, tells how Bill Wilson was planning to "save" the world. Members, being "spiritually awake," believe they have special knowledge of God that "normies," due to their never having the disease in question and never having worked the Steps, don't have.
The group has a polarized, "we-they" mentality that causes conflict with the wider society.
The groups believe that members are inherently different. There are "alcoholics" and "normies." "Normies" can't understand alcoholics. "Only another alcoholic can understand." This is true in all twelve step groups, all of which build a fortress mentality. They are, however, very careful not to openly engage in conflict. They are to always show "Humility," which means that, even though they have special knowledge of God and know better than others, they are to never argue. This together with "Anonymity," is at the core of their ability to infiltrate.
The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
There is no accountability for any leader in any of the groups. For example, an Elder with 35 years told a newcomer, a young man, his sobriety was no good because he was taking medication for high blood pressure. The newcomer, on the advice of the Elder, quit his medication, had a stroke, and is now crippled for life. Was the Elder held accountable to anyone? No. Are elders ever? No.
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means (for example: collecting money for bogus charities) that members would have considered unethical before joining the group.
The members of the groups are so restricted in their ability to think that they often engage in dishonest behavior without even being aware of it. For example, Elders will "let God speak" through them, telling the congregation at meetings how wonderful life is in the groups as a result of working the steps, and later, at after-meeting coffee, tell how they have been contemplating suicide but didn't mention it because they didn't want to confuse the newcomers.
Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family, friends, and personal pre-group goals and interests.
The most outstanding public example of this is Rosanne Barr, who publicly denounces her parents. On the more mundane level, family members of a grouper are considered sick too, and if they resist "help," the grouper may be advised to abandon his family.
The group's leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
Guilt is only secondary to fear as a motivating factor for group members. The manipulation of guilt is identical to the Red Chinese Communist "brainwashing" techniques. Members must make written confessions of their character defects and an important part of meetings is "sharing" for confession.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
New members are to attend "90 meetings in 90 day." Since all the diseases are considered "spiritual diseases," and the groups don't claim to cure any of them, a member must stay a member, attend meetings and work to convert others for the rest of his life.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
Even when not required, the results of indoctrination are usually a narrowing of a grouper's relationships to only other groupers. Only other group members can "understand."

every last one of those assertions could be made about Obama Supporters.

are you suggesting Obama is a cult leader?
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
Mate I read the same article, just because someone hates AA doesn't make it occult neither does publishing it, I've been to hundreds of AA meetings and the only sumbolism I've seen is the big book displayed, no nazi salutes either. This is obviously someone that has a hard on for AA as I said I'll concede that it could be considered a spiritual programme but a cult is a very far stretch indeed. You'll have to come up with more than a cut and paste from a Google search to prove your point on this one.
Just because it's on the net doesn't make it true, that's a opinion just like yours.
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
Here I'm calling the Republican Party a cult and I'm doing it because I read it, here the proof so it must be true
"We are not coming up against just human beings to beat them in elections. We're going to be coming up against spiritual warfare." (Pat Robertson at a 1994 Christian Coalition national strategy conference)

"By mobilizing eager volunteers down to the precinct (and local church) level and handing out 33 million voter guides -- often in church pews -- prior to last November's election, the Coalition is credited with providing the winning margin for perhaps half the Republicans' 52-seat gain in the House of Representatives and a sizable portion of their nine-seat pickup in the Senate." (Time, May 15, 1995)

[paste:font size="4"]1991-1993: Religious Joe Conason, Playboy, March, 1993

The rich Republicans of San Antonio's Bexar County consider themselves very conservative. And they are. But the politics of this new crowd gave them a bad scare. Not long after the Christian rightists staged their coup, the president of the Alamo City Republican Women's club just gave up and quit.
"The so-called Christian activists have finally gained control," she explained in her resignation letter, "and the Grand Old Party is more religious cult than political organization.

Next came the Pennsylvania primary ... the shock came the next day, when the votes for obscure Republican state committee positions were tallied. From nowhere, conservative Christians had grabbed dozens of seats. The militant newcomers are now close to controlling the Republican Party in Pennsylvania, too.

In June, in the San Diego County towns of Lemon Grove and El Cajon, a slate of "pro-family" Christian right activists financed by a group of conservative businessmen swept the Republican primary for all of the open council seats, along with a slew of state assembly seats. On the same day, several hundred miles to the north in Santa Clara Country, another slate of "biblically oriented" candidates--committed to the death penalty for such sins as homosexuality and abortion--captured 14 of 20 seats on the Republican county central committee. The GOP apparatus in the nation's most populous state is within a few votes of being absolutely controlled by the Christian right.

Across the nation, in primary after primary, stunned Republican leaders echoed the lament of one longtime party activist in Texas, a personal friend of Barbara Bush, who suddenly found herself ousted by the fundamentalists. "They organized and we didn't," she said. "I didn't think it was going to be this bad.

"The the Nation in 1993. Quoting moderate Republicans from Goldin's article:

What the Christian right spends a lot of time doing," says Marc Wolin, a moderate Republican who ran unsuccessfully for Congress from San Francisco last year, "is going after obscure party posts. They try to control the party apparatus in each county. We have a lot to fear from these people. They want to set up a theocracy in America.
According to Craig Berkman, former chairman of the Republican Party in Oregon:

They have acquired a very detailed and accurate understanding of how political parties are organized. Parties are very susceptible to being taken over by ideologues because lower party offices have no appeal to the vast majority of our citizenry. Many precincts are represented by no one. If you decide all of a sudden because it's your Christian duty to become a precinct representative, you only need a few votes to get elected.

Increasingly, they have the key say-so on who will be a delegate at the national convention, and who will write the party platform and nominate the presidential candidate. In a state like Oregon, with 600,000 registered Republicans, it is possible for 2000 or 3000 people to control the state party apparatus. If they are outvoted by one or two votes, parliamentary manipulations begin, and after two or three hours of discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, the more reasonable people with other things to do leave, and in the wee hours of the morning, things are decided. That's how they achieve their objectives.

"The Christian Coalition: On The Church and State, January, 1992.

When I slipped into the national leadership meeting of Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition, I thought I knew what to expect. I'd written many stories about the Religious Right. But I was unprepared for what I saw, heard and felt inside Robertson's Virginia Beach, Va., headquarters for two days in November during the "Road to Victory" Conference and Strategy Briefing.

The GOP's Scripps-Howard News Service:

Until last spring, Jo Martin was a relatively nonpolitical Houston housewife. Today she's on the front lines of a religious war that has fractured the Republican Party. Martin, a 52-year-old mother of three, and her husband David, a stockbroker, are lifelong Republicans but hadn't been active in party politics for many years until they happened to attend a local GOP meeting last spring.

They were appalled by what they found. The party apparatus had been taken over by religious activists intent on bringing "biblical principles" to government: outlawing abortion, ostracizing homosexuals and teaching creationism in public schools, among other things. "We honest to goodness felt like we had fallen through a time warp into a Nazi brown-shirt meeting," Martin said.

Church and State, Frederick Clarkson, November, 1992.

The Frederick Clarkson documents how Dr. Steven Hotze out-shouted the GOP Chair to take over the leadership of the Harris County (home to Houston) political apparatus:
The wildest dreams of the Far Right in America may actually be within their reach - control of the Republican Party.

The Great Right Hope talks about Dr. Stephen Hotze. In 1990, Dr. Bruce Prescott received a video from Dr. Hotze:

In February 1990 I received an unsolicited video in the mail. The video came from a Dr. Stephen Hotze and was entitled "Restoring America: How You Can Impact Civil Government." Filmed at a church in my neighborhood, I recognized the actors as the pastor and congregants of an Independent Fundamental Baptist church (the Jerry Falwell kind). The video was a guide on how to 1) take over a Republican Party precinct meeting, 2) elect "Christian" delegates to the GOP District meeting, and 3) put planks supporting the theocratic agenda of Christian Reconstructionism into the party platform. more
 

redeyedfrog

Well-Known Member
you are mistaken
AA is a cult/religion
If you leave AA what is the general conscensus of it's members about your outcome in recovery?
The big book says there are 3 ends to continued alcoholic behaviour, jails institutions and death and they are right. They don't care if you stay clean they just think being clean is only half the work, the other half is changing ourselves from the inside.
 

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I can almost agree with you Chesus, but I don't think the word cult really is an accurate description, despite that some of your arguments are pretty strong. A cult is a faction with a very specific denominational interpretation or a specific and obscure prophet or god. So for example, the Westboro baptists aren't a cult, they are part of the baptist denomination but on the fringe of it.

AA on the other hand, will accept anyone regardless of creed. My dad has been in it for over 20 years and he is the one pushing atheism of the Dawkins sort on me. I'm more agnostic and I haven't had a drink in 28 months but I don't attend meetings. My dad's biggest beef with them, and I must admit mine is also, is the insistence upon faith as a tool in recovery.

The thing about AA is that it seems to work for a lot of people. If you're cursing AA as a cult, my question to you is, do you drink? Do you want to put it down? You don't need AA. You also don't need to use AA as an excuse if you want to drink heavily and just wish there wasn't such an organization out there leading people to sobriety while you're helpless against alcoholism with an unmanageable life. I'm not saying that is you, but IF it is you.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
I can almost agree with you Chesus, but I don't think the word cult really is an accurate description, despite that some of your arguments are pretty strong. A cult is a faction with a very specific denominational interpretation or a specific and obscure prophet or god. So for example, the Westboro baptists aren't a cult, they are part of the baptist denomination but on the fringe of it.

AA on the other hand, will accept anyone regardless of creed. My dad has been in it for over 20 years and he is the one pushing atheism of the Dawkins sort on me. I'm more agnostic and I haven't had a drink in 28 months but I don't attend meetings. My dad's biggest beef with them, and I must admit mine is also, is the insistence upon faith as a tool in recovery.

The thing about AA is that it seems to work for a lot of people. If you're cursing AA as a cult, my question to you is, do you drink? Do you want to put it down? You don't need AA. You also don't need to use AA as an excuse if you want to drink heavily and just wish there wasn't such an organization out there leading people to sobriety while you're helpless against alcoholism with an unmanageable life. I'm not saying that is you, but IF it is you.
Branch Davidians
Did you know they were christians?
Scientologists?
As to drinking
So far this year. Maybe a 12 pack and I just drank a whole bottle of wine over the course of 2 nights last week
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Branch Davidians
Did you know they were christians?
Scientologists?
As to drinking
So far this year. Maybe a 12 pack and I just drank a whole bottle of wine over the course of 2 nights last week
the Branch Davidians were 7th Day Adventists,
all the shit the govt said about them was lies.

terrible example.


$cientology IS a cult, and it has no relation to AA.
great example of a cult that has somehow gained acceptance in society, but i dont see the parallels to AA.
 

desert dude

Well-Known Member
Yeah, all quite interesting, but do you want to protect teachers' salaries and deny poor kids school vouchers? Are you a real racist according to Condi Rice?
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Yeah, all quite interesting, but do you want to protect teachers' salaries and deny poor kids school vouchers? Are you a real racist according to Condi Rice?
Vouchers to for profit education corporations that actually get to pick their students leaving the least able to the public schools?
 
Top