The Bonafide Dr/Pt Relationship- Pitfalls to Avoid in Certifications

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
People v Goodwin
http://publicdocs.courts.mi.gov:81/opinions/final/coa/20141209_c320591_42_320591.opn.pdf

The Following is the Part of the Ruling discussing the Bonafide Dr/Pt relationship. It shows a classic failure of standards of certification at the expense of a patient. Don't fall into this trap. Note the specific objections of the court and use it as a guide to evaluate your current and future certifications.

(a) “Bona fide physician-patient relationship” means a treatment or counseling relationship between a physician and patient in which all of the following are present:

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(1) The physician has reviewed the patient’s relevant medical records and completed a full assessment of the patient’s medical history and current medical condition, including a relevant, in-person, medical evaluation of the patient.

(2) The physician has created and maintained records of the patient’s condition in accord with medically accepted standards.

(3) The physician has a reasonable expectation that he or she will provide follow-up care to the patient to monitor the efficacy of the use of medical marihuana as a treatment of the patient’s debilitating medical condition.

(4) If the patient has given permission, the physician has notified the patient’s primary care physician of the patient’s debilitating medical condition and certification for the use of medical marijuana to treat that condition. [MCL 333.26423(a).]

It is undisputed that the alleged criminal conduct occurred on November 16, 2013, after the statute was amended to include the definition of bona fide physician-patient relationship. “When a statute specifically defines a given term, that definition alone controls.” Haynes v Neshewat, 477 Mich 29, 35; 729 NW2d 488 (2007). Therefore, the trial court was required to apply the statutory definition, not the definition set forth in Tuttle and Hartwick, and it erred in failing to do so. However, we conclude that this plain error was not outcome determinative.

Although there was sufficient evidence presented to satisfy the first prong of the Legislature’s definition, regarding review of the patient’s medical history and assessment of the current medical condition, there was insufficient evidence to establish the second prong of the definition, i.e., whether the doctor created and maintained records of the patient’s condition in accord with medically accepted standards. The only records of Dr. Vernon Proctor offered and admitted at the hearing were his patients’ intake history questionnaires and other required paperwork for medical marijuana use, such as the physician certifications, health care release forms, and required state applications. Dr. Proctor also testified that he does not always keep the patients’ medical records. He stated that if he needed them, he could use the patient-signed authorization to obtain them from the primary care physician. Further, testimony of Dr. Proctor and the four patients reveals that he only saw those patients for certification and renewal of certification and did not schedule any follow-up appointments to check on the patients, their condition, and the efficacy of the medical marijuana. There was also no evidence presented regarding the medically accepted standard of creating and maintaining records. Accordingly, based on this record, there was insufficient evidence whether Dr. Proctor created and maintained records of the patients’ conditions.

There was also insufficient evidence to establish the third prong of the definition, i.e., whether Dr. Proctor had a reasonable expectation that he would provide follow-up care to the patients and monitor the efficacy of the use of medical marijuana as a treatment of their conditions. Dr. Proctor’s testimony, as well as his patients’ testimony, was clear that he never provided follow-up care to the patients, and he did not monitor the efficacy of the medical marijuana. Although he made himself available for questions if needed, Dr. Proctor only saw the

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patients for certification and renewal of certification, which was once per year. The record is clear that Dr. Proctor had no intent, let alone a reasonable expectation, to monitor his patients’ use of medical marijuana.

Finally, with regard to the fourth prong, there was no testimony from any of the patients whether they gave Dr. Proctor permission to notify their primary care physicians of their medical conditions and use of medical marijuana. In sum, defendant presented insufficient evidence to meet the Legislature’s four-prong definition of a bona fide physician-patient relationship. Therefore, although the trial court erred by failing to apply that definition, the error was not outcome determinative.
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
Codifying a pot docs business model into law is unreasonable IMHO, but allowing this game to jeopardizing patients legal protections is absurd. Please stop lobbying for this bullshit as you can clearly see innocent people are being harmed. Remember that Hippocratic oath you took ...

I (and my insurance) pay my primary care physician and associated health systems handsomely to provide my health care. I pay my pot doc out of pocket to simply review those records and certify my qualifying conditions to a state licensing agency (LARA). I, like most, simply cannot afford duplicate health care and especially out of pocket, if that is what you sought with this “Bona fide physician-patient relationship”.
 
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Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
You confuse lobbying with pointing out this was coming and warning patients to be more careful getting their certs. Now a patient is going to jail more than likely because they didn't show even a little bit of care and went to a doctor known for JUST WHAT THE COURT CALLED HIM OUT ON. You were told long ago that patients are at risk if they don't show a little proactive involvement in their certification and look for certain things- like offices, records required, and followup offered. Yet still in N. Michigan these sham clinics are sending our renewals 'by mail' and doing skype clinics, and patients line up to see them because they are $25 cheaper than a real certification clinic with a doctor there to shake your hand.

You want to get outraged? Why don't you get your head out of the sand and start running these clowns out of business before more patients go to jail? Seems all you 'internet experts' can do is complain and argue with those that actually pay attention to the law, read the court rulings, and try to protect patients.

You treat certification physician badly, demean them and call them 'pot doctors'. Well fine, you get what you ask for when you see a 'pot doctor' like Proctor. Now stand by him, or stand by patients. Your choice.

Dr. Bob
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
That patient could have gone to me, he could have gone to Dave Croker, he could have gone to U-Med and Dr. Prince. Any of them would have given him an honest cert if he qualified. Yet he choose to save a couple of bucks and go to the guy in the hotel (assuming the doc was even there- he has a history of folks dropping off forms and 3 weeks later they get a signed one- sight unseen- in the mail). You get what you pay for.

The court clearly looked at the whole picture- no records, no chart, no intent to follow up, only doing the bare minimum of state paperwork as evidence the relationship was a sham. You tell me the patient didn't know it was too. Yet they forked over their cash because it was easy and gave them a false sense of security- activity cheered on by those of you here that say no standards are needed. How is that Section 8 solves all your problems argument going now?

Enough of this, either get off your tails and run these dispensary skype docs out of town, or deal with the consequences.

Dr. Bob
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
I refer to "pot docs" as the necessary and secondary physician required to complete the MMMA licensing required of patients by our 2008 law as we know it today. This game was not foreseen nor a necessity, but is so due to Big Medical's filibuster (advice of council) of signing MMMP forms. Take that as a pejorative if you'd like, but that is simply my opinion/view and speaking style.

What exact benefit did the lobbyists of codifying the “Bona fide physician-patient relationship” seek?
 
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Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
To protect patients by not allowing prosecutors to attempt to redefine what it was every case as they were. Follow the rules, and it works, as I just found out in court about 10 days ago. Blew them out of the water. I have patients in Cass, ever wonder why I don't get called in there any more? Cases are dropped, and it was the same attorney. Because I read the standards, understood them and made sure my patients met them. And prosecutors would rather drop the case than lose it in court because of the way I do my certs.

In fact, most of my court cases now are expert witness consults fixing other doctor's issues. There is a reason for that, because I know what is going on and how to protect patients.

Unfortunately too many tend to listen to the loudmouths with DSL that promote their pet section 8 theories despite being shown repeatedly they are wrong. And the best they can come up with is fake accounts and name calling.

Dr. Bob
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
What about out of state visitors that are covered under MMMA and how do those other states MM law, patient doctor relationship and their associated case law/precedent games affect those patients rights/protections (sec 4 & 8 ) under our law? I think this “Bona fide physician-patient relationship” threat should be the least of any patients/caregivers "legal" concerns as it relates to being gamed by the system, as far, far too many others exist ...

https://www.rollitup.org/t/rory-larkey-raided-by-calhoun-county-sheriff-department.842980/

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/46396-medical-marijuana-card-protects-you-from-prosecution-not-discovery/

Did you lobby for this “Bona fide physician-patient relationship” requirement?
 
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Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
Whether I did or not (and I did because it is good medicine) doesn't matter, it is the law. The courts have upheld it and folks like Proctor are putting patients at risk, not me. My patients are safe because I do things correctly, and always have. Time you stop whining and trying to justify the actions of these mills. The fact remains that sham clinics like this are putting the act at risk. Legitimate physicians and clinics are being associated with sham clinics like this. Time to get with the program folks, there is a law, there are requirements.

Quit fooling yourselves into thinking that those of us that do things well are the enemy. We are not the ones that will destroy the Act. It is physicians like Proctor, the people LIKE YOU that seem to support his actions, and the fact the State will not act against folks like this that make a mockery of certifications. They knew about Proctor- that he was signing certs for cops sight unseen over at HydroWorld. It is right in the court papers in that case against his dispensary workers. Yet they let him keep doing it. This patient may now go to jail because the patient made a bad choice in their 'clinic' and the State let that 'clinic' continue to operate.

Just like they let those folks in TC (remember Adam?) do skype clinics, and there are at least two other examples I could cite, but I'll only use the ones that have been publicly identified. One does mail order renewals, hotel and dispensary skype clinics, and similar nonsense (up to and including this month) and both do mass 'convention' certifications- in TC and Muskegon one each.

You want to protect the act, stop giving them your money. Or face the consequences if you get caught.
 

Skylor

Well-Known Member
I guess it be best to have more then one doctor to say MM would be helpful to U but many of us don't have extra money to spend like that. Yeah this bona fide relationship was just to make it more expensive to be approved, nothing else. They could not close the program down which likely they really wanted to do, so they did whatever they could to make it harder-more costly to be approved.

I'm planing on seeing my pot doc for a 6 month check up, wasn't at first but since I found the clubhouse in Flint and can medicate-sample the stuff when I buy it, I should not give anybody any excuses to hassle me. Besides I'm saving 50% over there compare to the last place I was buying at...$200 an OZ or $25 an 1/8 sure beats any other place that I know of and on my last visit I scored some great bud.

I don't view Pot Doc as in insult,...I view Pill Doc an insult and there are many of those doctors still around..Expect for some body pains, I feel I'm in great shape, psychically and mentally and I credit MM for part of the reason why. MM has help me so much, I used to worry when waking up how well I would feel all day long, I no longer have that worry since I feel pretty good most of the time. So mentally I am happier, thanks in part for MM taking away my psychical pains. I no longer wake up after a few hours of sleep crying in pain--I still wake up and use the bathroom but I'm not in total pain and I usually can fall back asleep without medicating..and the only pills I take are over the counter and not that many--used to be none..I gotta talk with my pot doc about that
 
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TheMan13

Well-Known Member
What societal harm were/are these "mills"/"sham clinics" causing that justifies your lobbying and that excuses the fact these innocent patient/caregiver's (whom are oblivious to your inside baseball) are now being persecuted as serious felons for another's (your competitor's) actions/inactions?



Regulatory capture is a form of political corruption that occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or special concerns of interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating. Regulatory capture is a form of government failure; it creates an opening for firms to behave in ways injurious to the public (e.g., producing negative externalities).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
 
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Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
I guess it be best to have more then one doctor to say MM would be helpful to U but many of us don't have extra money to spend like that. Yeah this bona fide relationship was just to make it more expensive to be approved, nothing else. They could not close the program down which likely they really wanted to do, so they did whatever they could to make it harder-more costly to be approved.

I'm planing on seeing my pot doc for a 6 month check up, wasn't at first but since I found the clubhouse in Flint and can medicate-sample the stuff when I buy it, I should not give anybody any excuses to hassle me. Besides I'm saving 50% over there compare to the last place I was buying at...$200 an OZ or $25 an 1/8 sure beats any other place that I know of and on my last visit I scored some great bud.

I don't view Pot Doc as in insult,...I view Pill Doc an insult and there are many of those doctors still around..Expect for some body pains, I feel I'm in great shape, psychically and mentally and I credit MM for part of the reason why. MM has help me so much, I used to worry when waking up how well I would feel all day long, I no longer have that worry since I feel pretty good most of the time. So mentally I am happier, thanks in part for MM taking away my psychical pains. I no longer wake up after a few hours of sleep crying in pain--I still wake up and use the bathroom but I'm not in total pain and I usually can fall back asleep without medicating..and the only pills I take are over the counter and not that many--used to be none..I gotta talk with my pot doc about that
We didn't really change our prices at all. Follow up is free. It didn't change anything for us because we did it right from the beginning without being told. Since pot doc is not an insult does that mean a elderly person taking medical cannabis for their cancer should be called a stoner or pot head?
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
No fighting just very useful patient information. I am sure you would agree that patients well qualified medically can suffer because they went to the wrong doc. Even the courts agreed this was a qualified patient. He just didn't have a real cert.
 

gladstoned

Well-Known Member
No fighting just very useful patient information. I am sure you would agree that patients well qualified medically can suffer because they went to the wrong doc. Even the courts agreed this was a qualified patient. He just didn't have a real cert.
I didn't even read it. I was just taking a shot at whoever the shitty moderator is on this sub-forum.
 

Dr. Bob

Well-Known Member
What societal harm were/are these "mills"/"sham clinics" causing that justifies your lobbying and that excuses the fact these innocent patient/caregiver's (whom are oblivious to your inside baseball) are now being persecuted as serious felons for another's (your competitor's) actions/inactions?



Regulatory capture is a form of political corruption that occurs when a regulatory agency, created to act in the public interest, instead advances the commercial or special concerns of interest groups that dominate the industry or sector it is charged with regulating. Regulatory capture is a form of government failure; it creates an opening for firms to behave in ways injurious to the public (e.g., producing negative externalities).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
You mean other than really bad medicine, a generalized view that all certifications are shams and patients are potheads, and the constant ability of prosecutors to try to redefine what counts as a certification and what doesn't (and a requirement of each patient to prove their relationship with their doctor was 'good enough') I guess I leave it to you to think through. But it really doesn't matter, it is the law.
 

TheMan13

Well-Known Member
So you have no ethical problem with all the negative externalities caused by you and your cronies buying and selling law for profit to forward your special interests at a cost/threat to so many innocent others?

This "too big to fail" drug war/policy has wreaked havoc on our society for nearly century. It needs to simply end based on it's utter failure, not continue to be parsed and maintained by your wealthy lawyer buddies. It's time to take responsibility for your actions/laws ...



Do you have any inside views/thoughts on the Provisioning Center law currently being bought and sold in the backrooms of Lansing and what "unintended consequences"/threats patients/caregivers can look forward to there?
 
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