Chinese -Leds

Don Geno

Don Geno

Well-Known Member
There has been a lot of talk about Chinese LEDS, but it came to mind to either be some type of propaganda to buy more expensive lighting in my search for a clear answer no one really knows if they are really good or really that bad just not to buy these Chinese made LEDS. Its the answer of not knowing what you have ...is good or bad now has anyone actually gave these LEDS a fair chance?
 
A

az2000

Well-Known Member
Don Geno said:
is good or bad now has anyone actually gave these LEDS a fair chance?
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I own four Chinese epi-whatever fixtures, and three Area 51. Also a few Cree "lightbulbs" from Home Depot for a more DIY experience (without going all the way to building my own COB).

There's definitely a problem with Chinese epi-whatever lights. The Chinese government is requiring higher standards in 2015 due to the bad reputation these lights have earned. That wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a problem. (OTOH: Hopefully these lights will be better soon.).

I think what's "good" or "bad" depends on each individual's circumstances. I think anyone considering LED should state why. Also whether they're in a tall or short space, which affects the choices. Also, the level of DIY they're comfortable with.

I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't think $200 is a lot to lose if someone buys an inefficient epi-whatever fixture.

A much greater risk exists when someone gets drawn into the predatory rebranded imports (Kind, Lush, HydroGrowLED, GrowBlu, Blackdog, et. al.). The big complaint about Chinese epi-whatever fixtures is that you don't know the properties of the diodes you're buying. When it only costs $150 for 150w actual, it's not as important as when you're asked to spend $400 for those same watts -- with the same lack of information. Why not spend $400 on a fixture that tells you what you're getting, and has an upgrade path (so your long-term investment won't be disposable as technology advances)? I'm not "somewhere in the middle" on this. I see no reason to buy one of these "secret sauce" brands.

I think if people just talked about the pros/cons of any light (with details about space, electricity cost, heat tolerance, abilities to DIY, short-term vs long-term goals, budget) there would be more objective discussion, less polarizing subjectivity "my cheap light produces great bud!" or "that's junk!"
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
az2000 said:
The Chinese government is requiring higher standards in 2015 due to the bad reputation these lights have earned. That wouldn't be happening if there wasn't a problem. (OTOH: Hopefully these lights will be better soon.)
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Can you link? What are the standards changes, is this applicable to fixtures or LEDs themselves?

I can only find 3 standard changes for LED bulbs with built in ballast.
 
Yodaweed

Yodaweed

Well-Known Member
I have two epi-whater panels and two area 51 panels and there is a noticeable difference in bud quality, density, size, and yield with area 51 over the Chinese panels, it also takes double the watts for my Chinese panels to even grow buds worth keeping cause density is not very good and I don't like fluffy nugs.
 
vostok

vostok

Well-Known Member
Don Geno said:
There has been a lot of talk about Chinese LEDS, but it came to mind to either be some type of propaganda to buy more expensive lighting in my search for a clear answer no one really knows if they are really good or really that bad just not to buy these Chinese made LEDS. Its the answer of not knowing what you have ...is good or bad now has anyone actually gave these LEDS a fair chance?
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Why not be the first 'true' member here at RIU
to proove the vast majority wrong, and yes just like any canna site these days
them commies are hiding in the posts just like here!​
 
tokingtiger

tokingtiger

Well-Known Member
i bought some LED's from HTG supply and got chinese lights.. i went to the manufacturer and pay less than 50% for same lights.. now i have one manufacturer that i paid less than $200 and got a 500w with 5w diodes.. working just fine.. got them shipped faster than i get from an american shipper for any item. if they break, for that price, i can replace.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
The LEDs work, it's about getting them for a fair price with good drivers and assembly quality so they don't fail. It's also about sizing your system based on it's actual light output. There are crap products out and great products (using both epistar and cree LEDs), so do your homework if you buy LEDs of any kind.
 
PSUAGRO.

PSUAGRO.

Well-Known Member
captainmorgan said:
Beating another dead horse are we.
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apparently so .............didn't you know we all are on apachetech/hans/area51/onyx's payroll?lol. Supposedly the new thing in here now is to recommend chinese panels with generic encapsulated leds at half the efficiency of hid(or worse) because it's "easy on the wallet" and semi-disposable. If it fails during flower you have another five fixtures in the closet, no biggie....:eyesmoke:
 
mc130p

mc130p

Well-Known Member
PSUAGRO. said:
apparently so .............didn't you know we all are on apachetech/hans/area51/onyx's payroll?lol. Supposedly the new thing in here now is to recommend chinese panels with generic encapsulated leds at half the efficiency of hid(or worse) because it's "easy on the wallet" and semi-disposable. If it fails during flower you have another five fixtures in the closet, no biggie....:eyesmoke:
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I completely agree. And the people doing these things are the reasons I'm not saying anything anymore. Just going to let them figure it out, or not.
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Due to the nature of LEDs manufacturing (drastically varying output efficiency) there is no point in taking chances with an LED that you are going to run for long hours. In other words, if they (generic manufacturers) don't guarantee the output, they have no reason not to screw you with low efficiency LEDs. Why expect anything more? Low efficiency LEDs are much worse than HPS and HPS is much cheaper.

If you are building a lamp that you will turn on and once in awhile and no care about efficiency, use fluoro or incandescent. If you are building a huge commercial grow, use double ended HPS. But I see no place for generic LED in a growing lamp because efficiency should be a primary goal in the design of a grow lamp.
 
9

95'ZR1

Active Member
Just go the cree cob diy way. Or have someone build you a nice diy using cree cobs. Still costs about half of the big name guys, unless you want a pretty box with a cool name stamped in it then by all means pay the big bucks.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
SupraSPL said:
Due to the nature of LEDs manufacturing (drastically varying output efficiency) there is no point in taking chances with an LED that you are going to run for long hours. In other words, if they (generic manufacturers) don't guarantee the output, they have no reason not to screw you with low efficiency LEDs. Why expect anything more? Low efficiency LEDs are much worse than HPS and HPS is much cheaper.

If you are building a lamp that you will turn on and once in awhile and no care about efficiency, use fluoro or incandescent. If you are building a huge commercial grow, use double ended HPS. But I see no place for generic LED in a growing lamp because efficiency should be a primary goal in the design of a grow lamp.
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Why should efficiency be a primary goal in a grow lamp? I think it's important, like the highest important secondary considerations. Primary goals are all about output quality and quantity, not inputs, those are secondary concerns.
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
In my case, heat is a barrier to yield and quality. Increasing efficiency means reducing heat. That means I can pack in more photons, resulting in more yield from my space. Anything that can increase yield without sacrificing quality is bongsmiliebongsmiliebongsmilie

Since growing lamps run long hours, there should be emphasis on efficiency because the gains can really add up over time. When it comes to cannabis, canopy temps affect nug and resin quality. My very best nugs consistently come from canopies kept under 80F. Because stealth is a concern, more heat means more noise and more difficulty/cost to filter the air. Low efficiency LED requires a lot more wattage to do the same job. That means more drivers, more heatsink and a lot more cooling/circulation/ventilation. If you fail to cool generic LEDs properly they experience massive temp droop, lumen depreciation and maybe even burn out. And finally, there is the cost of electricity which can be significant especially if you had to run the AC to keep the heat under control. But even that cost is minor compared to the benefits of an increased yield.

Honestly I wouldnt even put a 30% lamp in my grow because I am so used to the low heat of a 45% lamp.

Here is why, a 20% efficient lamp creates half as much light than a 30% lamp. That means to get the same job done you end with 71% more heat.

A 20% efficiency lamp creates 227% more heat to get the same job done as a 45% lamp.
 
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nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
You guys always overstate the difference in efficiency. We are talking 110 vs 130 lumens per watt, something like 18% more efficient. If heat is an issue for you, clearly efficiency becomes a top priority, assuming you can't fix it easily with a simple venting upgrade.

Buying 1000w in CA3070's will cost you $350 + shipping.
Buying 1200w in epistar COBs will cost you $115 shipped.

They will perform nearly identically.

At $0.11 per KWH the 200w difference will be paid for after running for 21,136 hours. Or about 1625 days of running (averaging 13 hours per day.)
 
SupraSPL

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Nomo, I dispute that we can get 110lm/W in warm white from those Epis. I expect about 60lm/W from them at nominal current. I run my CXA 3000K at about 170lm/W, maybe not economical design but you can build them economically at about 142lm/W. I am willing to order some big epi COBs and do some caloric testing so we can better estimate their efficiency.

As I stated, if you focus on electrical costs alone, you miss out on the increased heastink, drivers, AC, ventilation, heatsink cooling and circulation costs. But those costs are a drop in the bucket compared to the benefit of an increase yield. The CXAs pay for themselves in a week.

That said, in Hawaii they can pay over $0.45/KWH. $0.30-$0.40 in Cali and $0.25 in NYC.
 
nomofatum

nomofatum

Well-Known Member
SupraSPL said:
Nomo, I dispute that we can get 110lm/W in warm white from those Epis. I expect about 60lm/W from them at nominal current. I run my CXA 3000K at about 170lm/W, maybe not economical design but you can build them economically at about 142lm/W. I am willing to order some big epi COBs and do some caloric testing so we can better estimate their efficiency.

As I stated, if you focus on electrical costs alone you miss out on the increased heastink, drivers, AC, ventilation, heatsink cooling and circulation costs.

That said, in Hawaii they can pay over $0.45/KWH. $0.30-$0.40 in Cali and $0.25 in NYC.
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110 is cool white, 105 for warm.

I want to see 170lm/w for real in a lab test. I would be impressed with 140 or higher in a lab test. 120-135 is the realistic range.
Higher efficiency would definitely be a higher priority with 2x 3x or 4x the electric costs.
 
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