Light ???

RM3

Well-Known Member
We can throw out all the science and real time pictures we want but The Herd will still parrot misguided forum paradigms. They feel good "knowing" that the reason lower buds don't fatten up is because of the lack of light. I see such statements almost on a daily basis here. 90% of them are from 'new members'.
Yes, I know, but I also know there will be a few folks that find this and get it
 

pineappleman420

Well-Known Member
I have been looking into it and i was going to experiment with your veg timing. The question i Have is im at 17 days into my grow from seed and my light schedule is 18/6. If i switch now is it going to stress my kids out or are they going to be just fine, just getting the proper sleep?
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
I have been looking into it and i was going to experiment with your veg timing. The question i Have is im at 17 days into my grow from seed and my light schedule is 18/6. If i switch now is it going to stress my kids out or are they going to be just fine, just getting the proper sleep?
ive read that a plant determines its gender between the 2nd=4th set of true leaves, so the plants at 17 days should know their gender. i dont think changing ur veg time could cause any problems or stress, as outdoors the light and dark periods change daily..
 

pineappleman420

Well-Known Member
ive read that a plant determines its gender between the 2nd=4th set of true leaves, so the plants at 17 days should know their gender. i dont think changing ur veg time could cause any problems or stress, as outdoors the light and dark periods change daily..
I see... Thanks for the input.
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I tried the coffin approach about 10 years ago.. I even tried putting a few actinics in... granted it was t-8, not t-5... but still.

I went back to HPS. Something about the spectrum of HPS causes it to flower faster. (it could even be the dim far-red glow during cooldown causing phytochromes to convert to Pr faster)

It's been my theory since that the spectral yellow, amber, and orange in particular is what makes the HPS spectrum so good for flowering, and that red and blue, while both necessary, aren't needed as much as yellow. This is for a few reasons. Red and blue photons have very poor penetration through chlorophyll, while yellow has very good penetration. This makes red and blue good food for top canopy level, but yellow food for shaded leaves. Also, When red is filtered by the top layer, the yellow alone causes a shade avoidance effect by converting Pfr to Pr in the lower branches, causing them to stretch until they see unshaded light(red). This in effect calibrates the "Tree" shape of the plant.

Another very important characteristic of a flowering light is the gradient between 650-750nm. If it's an upward slope (incandescent), you will only get stretch. HPS has a R:FR ratio of about 2:1, while most fluorescent tend to be much higher (0 far-red), making them better for veg.
 
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natro.hydro

Well-Known Member
I tried the coffin approach about 10 years ago.. I even tried putting a few actinics in... granted it was t-8, not t-5... but still.

I went back to HPS. Something about the spectrum of HPS causes it to flower faster. (it could even be the dim far-red glow during cooldown causing phytochromes to convert to Pr faster)

It's been my theory since that the spectral yellow, amber, and orange in particular is what makes the HPS spectrum so good for flowering, and that red and blue, while both necessary, aren't needed as much as yellow. This is for a few reasons. Red and blue photons have very poor penetration through chlorophyll, while yellow has very good penetration. This makes red and blue good food for top canopy level, but yellow food for shaded leaves. Also, When red is filtered by the top layer, the yellow alone causes a shade avoidance effect by converting Pfr to Pr in the lower branches, causing them to stretch until they see unshaded light(red). This in effect calibrates the "Tree" shape of the plant.

Another very important characteristic of a flowering light is the gradient between 650-750nm. If it's an upward slope (incandescent), you will only get stretch. HPS has a R:FR ratio of about 2:1, while most fluorescent tend to be much higher (0 far-red), making them better for veg.
Please dont take this as me calling bs.
But I would really like to know where you read that, if it is some common law of plant growth than nevermind, but I had never heard yellow was more effective so if you have a good link to read on that would be appreciated
 
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RM3

Well-Known Member
Pretty sure it is not the yellow light IMO (based on all I have read) the reason that HPS works is the sheer power of bombarded photons and that the plants adapt to it. With recent technical advances in LED lights it seems most greenhouses are switching to em as seen in that vid that I posted, but here is yet another example,,,



Giving plants the right amount of light
Date:
April 8, 2013
Source:
Chalmers University of Technology
Summary:
Enormous amounts of energy are wasted in greenhouses where our food is grown as a result of the plants receiving too much and the wrong kind of light. This can also stress and damage the plants. Researchers are working on a globally unique method to measure how much and what type of light plants want.

Current greenhouses use what are known as high pressure sodium lamps, which are basically the same type of lamps that are used for street lights. They generally only have two positions, on or off.

"Everything in modern greenhouses is very high tech except for lighting," says Anna-Maria Carstensen, who is a PhD student in automatic control at Chalmers. "Temperature and nutrition are meticulously controlled. Lighting regulation, however, lags far behind."

The light spectrum provided by high pressure sodium lamps corresponds very poorly to the spectrum plants use during photosynthesis (see image). Plants do not receive very much of the blue and red light that they need the most. They do, however, receive a great deal of infrared light, which is harmful to some crops, and yellow light, which the plants cannot utilize to any great extent.

from here,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408084850.htm
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
A very good explanation of the ways some plants use "other" spectrums ,,,,

Plant Pigments
Plants have different things in their cells that enable them to absorb light. The most common ones we find in the majority of plants are Chlorophyll A and Chlorophyll B. Below we will briefly discuss the main pigments found in plant cells and relate them to the light spectrum.


The light spectrum.
Chlorophyll
There are actually more than one kind of chlorophyll, but not all are present in all plants. In most plants they have at least Chlorophyll A and often chlorophyll B. Other Chlorophylls, which we won't discuss here, are: Chlorophyll cl, Chlorophyllc2, Chlorophyll d.

Chlorophyll's are arranged in something called "photosystems" which are in the thylakoid membranes of chloroplasts. The main function of chlorophyll is to absorb light energy and transfer it to the reaction center chlorophyll of the photosystem.

Chlorophyll a has an approximate absorption peak of 665 Nm and 465 Nm.

Chlorophyll b has an approximate absorption peak of 640 Nm and 450 Nm.

Accessory Pigments
Accessory pigments are other pigments that are also able to absorb light. Chlorophyll a & b are green and are able to best absorb light in the 450 nm (violet-blue) and 650 nm (red) area of the light spectrum. Well, that leaves (haha) the green, yellow and orange parts of the spectrum unusable. This is why plants have extra pigments (colours), in order to take in light from different wavelengths that chlorophyll is not good at absorbing.

Carotene is an orange pigment capapble of photosynthesis. This pigment transmits light energy to chlorophyll. As well as photosynthesis, these pigments also help protect against too much light, photoinhibition.

Phaeophytin a are gray-brown in colour.

Phaeophytin b are yellow-brown.

Xanthophyll are yellow pigments in the carotenoid group. These pigments seem to absorb best at 400-530nm. These are involved with photosynthesis with chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is often much more abundant than xanthophylls, and this is why the leaves are still a green colour. When fall arrives in many countries and the leaves change colour, the chlorophyll "dies back" and the xanthophylls are more apparent in the yellow colour you see (like a maple tree)

-The Xanthophyll cycle is a wondeful skill a plant has. In order to protect itself from absorbing too much light, and thus causing photoinhibition, Xanthophyll cycle converts pigments that do not quench energy into ones that do. When a plant recieves too much light, the xanthophyll cycle changes violoxanthin to antheraxanthin and zeaxanthin which are photoprotective pigments.

Anthocyanin pigments are often red, purple or blue. These pigments have been said to help a plant against light stress and act to help protect a plant from blue-green and UV light. Cacti do not have these, they have Betalain instead.

Betalain These pigments are found in Caryophyllales (cacti and beets for example). They are often a red-yellow-purple colour that is often found in flower colour, but it can also be found in leaves, stems, fruits and roots of these plants as well. It is not really known what the exact purpose of these pigments are.

-Betacyanins are reddish to violet Betalain pigments. They absorb light best at 535 nm.

-Betaxanthins are yellow to orange Betalain pigments. They absorb light best at 480 nm.

In relation to Photosynthesis
It would seem, in my opinion, that given the various pigments, and the areas they are most abundant, that Chlorophyll a & b, and to a lesser extent, the various carotenoids (such as carotene and xanthophyll) would be the most productive in the absoprtion of light for photosynthesis. When applying this to cultivation and artificial lights, it would seem logical to choose lights that peak in the 430-470nm and 640-680nm range, to allow the 2 main chlorophyll types to gather the most energy. Light in the blue spectrum may also be a little stronger to allow the carotenes and xanthophylls to absorb more light as well.

From here,
http://www.kadasgarden.com/Cpigments.html
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
As stated earlier in the thread, it is not my intent to say that Flouros are better than HPS. The intent of the thread is to help growers better understand light and how to get more out of whatever light they are using
after reading all the above, it makes u want to go led.. However i am not convinced led tech is up to par yet, they seem to be overpriced and incapeable of producing yields per square meter as hid lights..all the big grow ops up here still swear by hps,mh and t5 lighting.. i want to try led as my electric bills are out of hand, but the purchace price and if they dont produce like my hid's id be fucked and growing legally is not very cost efective as the tax is more than my income..if laws stay this way, i think most growers will prefer the illegal method as that is were the money is.
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
i truly wonder how some of the big grow ops aford to stay in busines, just last year 5 friends in another medical state stopped growing as it was no longer producing money and they had been growing for 20+ years, but w/ legal med it brought the cost of legal or ilegal weed down to little to no profits.
 

RM3

Well-Known Member
i truly wonder how some of the big grow ops aford to stay in busines, just last year 5 friends in another medical state stopped growing as it was no longer producing money and they had been growing for 20+ years, but w/ legal med it brought the cost of legal or ilegal weed down to little to no profits.
IMO it will come down to better quality as the legal thing continues to grow

60 Minutes just did a story that featured a commercial grow op here in Colorado and she made like 25 million this year, she had 4 warehouse grows
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
As stated earlier in the thread, it is not my intent to say that Flouros are better than HPS. The intent of the thread is to help growers better understand light and how to get more out of whatever light they are using
if u can find me an led w/ a low purchace price that u promise will produce like my hid's in a 4x6 area at less than 1000 watts please let me know..i just cant aford to take a risk, though i really want to try led. or maybe ill just have to wait, posibly years for the prices to come down wile their performance goes up..i have friends who have bought led lights 3-4 yrs ago and the lights are in the garage or dumpsters as they were literally useless, but those were the 1 watt diodes, now they have 5 watt diodes the question is if the spectrum is right and which brand is worth the price?
 

lmoore2680

Well-Known Member
if u can find me an led w/ a low purchace price that u promise will produce like my hid's in a 4x6 area at less than 1000 watts please let me know..i just cant aford to take a risk, though i really want to try led. or maybe ill just have to wait, posibly years for the prices to come down wile their performance goes up..i have friends who have bought led lights 3-4 yrs ago and the lights are in the garage or dumpsters as they were literally useless, but those were the 1 watt diodes, now they have 5 watt diodes the question is if the spectrum is right and which brand is worth the price?
AreA 51s are great from what I personally have seen but like I am still a little skeptical about them

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Rollitup mobile app
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
RM3, U of all know how wattage efects yields, u run 1000 watts of t5's to cover a 5x5, and ur doing it great!! im running 1200 watts over a 4x6 just flowering and yields are good but i hope to get better with knowledge gained by u guys here that know much more than me.. Also thank u for the knowledge shared!
 

TheChemist77

Well-Known Member
some growers on riu are irogant pricks, however its the guys like u who share their grow knowledge to help others bring their yields up and these are the ones who i thank. RM3, SATIEVED, DR.WHO, U guys are the reason i come here, pluss some others
 
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