Stepped on hash,

[skepler]

Hi G.G. The viscosity consideration came to mind after making QWISO and finding if I am patient enough, like 12-24 hours of patience, I can have a rock hard shatter at 70-80° ambient. But this is contingent on how much oil is in the ISO. I use glass baking dishes to evaporate the ISO in and found is the resulting film is from 2.5 grams of final product it will come out hard. If it is in the 3.5 gram range and up it can sit for days and never harden. I assumed the thickness caused retention of some solvent, but I think more is at play. Due to the odor of material that didn't quite harden, that has been in a container overnight, that smelled wonderfully of terpenes, I am guessing there is a period where the ISO is gone, and the material is still soft due to terpenes that leave over the next several hours. This has been interesting as I assumed the non-shatter material was contaminated with solvent, but I am now guessing that is wrong. For one there is nothing to indicate a solvent when I vaporize it, I use the Seego V-Hit B. Secondly the taste is much better when I don't go for the rock hard shatter. I do try to vaporize rather than burn the material, at 4.5 watts.

The old material was made with a low temperature ethanol soxhet reflux. A 30 gallon steel container, heated with a 200 watt incadescent bulb for heat, damp towels on the top to provide a cooler condensation surface. I processed leaves and small buds. The resulting material was a very thick tar that nearly filled a Gerber baby food jar. I was just copying the Isomerizer methodology that was available in the late 60s to early 70's. When I had access to a lab through employment, I could do a hexane seperation and isomerize it with sulfuric acid, in reverse order than what I just stated.

I'm going to fine tune my QWISO process and see if I can consistently find a sweet spot between the solvent being gone and more terpenes being present. I am guessing that buds will ND because of the surface area, and the small size of the trichromes, whereas my tar was 1-1.5 inches thick, and it was definitely sticky, just like asphalt tar.

Hope I answered your questions, LMK if I didn't. No coffee yet, waiting for water to boil. Thanks for sharing, it seems like this whole thing should have been 'hashed' out years ago. If we only had cheap, easy access to a GC to test the material at each step so we could get away from our subjective guessing.

 

[Grow Goddess]

Hi G.G. The viscosity consideration came to mind after making QWISO and finding if I am patient enough, like 12-24 hours of patience, I can have a rock hard shatter at 70-80° ambient. But this is contingent on how much oil is in the ISO. I use glass baking dishes to evaporate the ISO in and found is the resulting film is from 2.5 grams of final product it will come out hard. If it is in the 3.5 gram range and up it can sit for days and never harden. I assumed the thickness caused retention of some solvent, but I think more is at play. Due to the odor of material that didn't quite harden, that has been in a container overnight, that smelled wonderfully of terpenes, I am guessing there is a period where the ISO is gone, and the material is still soft due to terpenes that leave over the next several hours. This has been interesting as I assumed the non-shatter material was contaminated with solvent, but I am now guessing that is wrong. For one there is nothing to indicate a solvent when I vaporize it, I use the Seego V-Hit B. Secondly the taste is much better when I don't go for the rock hard shatter. I do try to vaporize rather than burn the material, at 4.5 watts.

The old material was made with a low temperature ethanol soxhet reflux. A 30 gallon steel container, heated with a 200 watt incadescent bulb for heat, damp towels on the top to provide a cooler condensation surface. I processed leaves and small buds. The resulting material was a very thick tar that nearly filled a Gerber baby food jar. I was just copying the Isomerizer methodology that was available in the late 60s to early 70's. When I had access to a lab through employment, I could do a hexane seperation and isomerize it with sulfuric acid, in reverse order than what I just stated.

I'm going to fine tune my QWISO process and see if I can consistently find a sweet spot between the solvent being gone and more terpenes being present. I am guessing that buds will ND because of the surface area, and the small size of the trichromes, whereas my tar was 1-1.5 inches thick, and it was definitely sticky, just like asphalt tar.

Hope I answered your questions, LMK if I didn't. No coffee yet, waiting for water to boil. Thanks for sharing, it seems like this whole thing should have been 'hashed' out years ago. If we only had cheap, easy access to a GC to test the material at each step so we could get away from our subjective guessing.

Thanks for the reply. It did answer my questions.

I recommend using no heat though. The buds and leaves are losing terpenes in the grow room, but if the plants are healthy, they are reproducing them faster than they are losing them, moreso in the buds.

This is the reason why I posted on this thread. If actual quality terpenes from the cannabis are being added back into the oil, I would not call that stomped on. I would call that greatly improved. I consider the terpenes just as valuable as the THC. I am not in this for recreational use.

I have to 100% agree with you. Let it dry as a thin film and bye, bye terpenes. Keep it in a thicker state, like using a smaller container, I have to agree with you, it will not dry more than a thick sticky oil. Some of my strains will stay liquid. At least when using 99% iso. When using another solvent, it could putty up. You can dilute it and filter it to take away the putty effect. I have only had this happen when using grain alcohol with one of my strains.

You are on the right track. In most cases, especially with 99% iso, it being somewhat liquid is at its highest medicinal properties. I consider this picture to be some of the best RSO I have made. I don't consider it the best oil anymore since making ND Sap. Yes, it was a little warm when this was put onto the foil, but it was not hot. It was liquid like and I believe it was fully purged.


Keep an eye on my blogs. I have been using 192 proof grain alcohol because I don't like the idea of using dangerous solvents. It has been a pain using anything below 99%. As soon as I get the opportunity, (I have everything necessary except for time). I am going to compare 192 proof grain alcohol side by side with 200 proof organic ethanol. I want to do this during the winter months while my house is very dry. The humidity is difficult to work in using grain alcohol. I will be posting the results on my blog RSO, QWISO, QWET, ....

side by side - I will probably do the comparison with the 2 ounces of Querke I have set aside. Just have not had the time.

 

[Twitch]

what is the Kleen Extract?

 

[Texas(THC)]

200 proof alcohol
http://www.kleenxtract.com/our-products

 

[WarMachine]

Not badddd, cheaper then me buying EC & having it shipped.

 

[Texas(THC)]

i will be ordering soon to experiment
another thread about the product
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/kleen-extract.14895/page-3

 

[Grow Goddess]

what is the Kleen Extract?

It is 200 proof organic ethanol. They advertise it for the purpose of extractions. Cleaner, safer, etc.

You do have to use caution when using 200 proof besides the flammability. It says it is not for human consumption. I believe it is because if you tried to take a slug of it, it would cause your mouth and throat to burn due to the proof being so high. I guess it can cause burns. Supposedly it can suck the moisture right out of your skin to where it will leave a burn spot.

I have not tried it yet. I have a gallon in my freezer ready to go. Well worth the money if it works well. About the same cost of using quality grian alcohol. I am going to do a side-by-side comparison with 192 proof polish vodka.

I would have had this done a while ago. Just have not had the time. It has been a rough year for a multitude of reasons.

I have 2 oz of premium dank Querkle ready to do the comparison too. Too wiped out mentally and physically to get to it. When this deep freeze backs off, I should be able to get to it. I will post the results on my blog about different oils.

If it works better than the 192 proof grain alcohol, the KleenXtract is what I will be using.

The reason why I looked into KX is because during the summer making QWET for my ND Sap it has been a pain in the ass because of the water content. I am hoping this solves the PITA problem. I am hoping it evaporates similar to 99% iso, less water.

Edit: When I ordered it I had it sent to a "Safe House" because it is advertised on the product what it is meant for. Safe extracting. I was not sure if it would come in a discrete package or not, it was in a discrete package and nobody could really tell what it was. That stuff still concerns me. I do my best not to tell anybody where I grow. Better to be safe than sorry. I guess you could say, to play it safe, you have to become a hermit so to speak.

The only other thing I know about the product is you have to be careful removing the seal. At least on the gallon size containers. I read somewhere about a complaint that the seal fell inside and melted the sticky stuff off or something like that. So when I go to open mine I will be very careful to fully remove the seal and not drop it into the container.

Again I will post my results on my blog at Z-Labs and MMMA.

 

[Twitch]

you have to become a hermit so to speak.

more truth to that then some people know.

I am very curious of this product although i will not lie I ma not a fan of things market directly for extractions, makes me think of that ZHO stuff, I understand this is 200 proof alcohol but what makes it different. I see you said organic, what is the difference from the grain vs grape (which is expensive as hell) vs this? and what was the price tag if you don't mind me asking.

please do not think I am being condescending towards you, just not a fan of things marketed towards extractors, also I am not sure what separates all the grain grape and extra klean from each other.

but please get back to us on the side by side I am very interested to see, I am sure others are as well.

 

[WarMachine]

more truth to that then some people know.

I am very curious of this product although i will not lie I ma not a fan of things market directly for extractions, makes me think of that ZHO stuff, I understand this is 200 proof alcohol but what makes it different. I see you said organic, what is the difference from the grain vs grape (which is expensive as hell) vs this? and what was the price tag if you don't mind me asking.

please do not think I am being condescending towards you, just not a fan of things marketed towards extractors, also I am not sure what separates all the grain grape and extra klean from each other.

but please get back to us on the side by side I am very interested to see, I am sure others are as well.

Funny you mentioned ZHO, I actually have 6 cans of mz12x (v2 basically of ZHO) haven't tested it yet but hope to soon. I need a tube for it though, my normal long soak method wouldn't work with this.

As far as the types of ethanol, I believe it is the same with just regualr drinking alcohol. Like how their is rye whiskey, corn whiskey, etc. I think it's just a different type of ethanol but I really don't know.

 

[Bublonichronic]

Good find growG, I'm gonna order some and give it a try, it will have to do till I make hemp ethanol

 

[GrowinDad]

The name is just a marketing gimmic. If it is 200 proof organic grain alcohol, then there is nothing more to it than that. I have been happily using a different brand of 100% that is marketed to labs. I am sure it is the same stuff...

 

[Grow Goddess]

more truth to that then some people know.

I am very curious of this product although i will not lie I ma not a fan of things market directly for extractions, makes me think of that ZHO stuff, I understand this is 200 proof alcohol but what makes it different. I see you said organic, what is the difference from the grain vs grape (which is expensive as hell) vs this? and what was the price tag if you don't mind me asking.

please do not think I am being condescending towards you, just not a fan of things marketed towards extractors, also I am not sure what separates all the grain grape and extra klean from each other.

but please get back to us on the side by side I am very interested to see, I am sure others are as well.

I never tried the grape stuff.
The difference (I don't have experience with it yet), the difference I have noticed with grain alcohol going from 190 proof to 192 proof, the difference in water content when evaporating. It is a big pain in the butt compared to 99% iso.
When I am done purging my product, I don't like to see a bunch of water left over that I have to deal with.

I am really hoping that the 200 proof is a solution to the water issue and hoping it compares to 99% iso when it comes to purging and evaporating.

I, like you, don't care for things that are advertised for extracting and marijuana. I would rather it be more 'stealth'. Like ordering a bottle of 190 everclear, nobody would really suspect much. It is just such a pain to work with in order to produce a premium product. I am willing to stick my neck out a bit to get a better grain alcohol. In this case it is 100% ethel. They advertise that it is organic. That does not matter as much to me as the water content does.

The cost is not that important to me. Whether it is $5 a pint or $20 a pint, it doesn't matter that much because I am using my absolute best buds I can possibly use. The buds I am using, I don't know how to put a price tag on them. So the cost of the solvent is not that important as long as it provides me what I want and need. What I want is for it to evaporate and purge like 99% iso. That is worth a higher cost to me. All of my trim and leaves go right into the wood burner. I suppose if I were using the trim, the cost of the solvent would be more important to me.

To answer your question, the cost shipped was just under $95 delivered to Michigan. About the same as the cost of the 192 proof polish vodka, maybe a little cheaper. If there was another place to get the 200 proof that did not advertise it for extracts, and shipped stealth, I would purchase it from them, but I have not found such a place. It was hard enough finding KX where I did. I have not been able to locate 200 proof anyplace else.

I don't think the FDA allows 200 proof to be for human consumption so I suspect it would look suspicious no matter what. That is another reason why I chose to have it shipped to a safe house. I am not ever purchasing everclear again. I like the owner, a great guy, he personally offered to meet up with me in MI and give me a new bottle of 190 to replace the bad bottle I got. I lost a couple Oz of my best buds due to the bad bottle of everclear. Whether it was the shipping company or the Wine Chateau that messed with it, I do not know. The everclear bottleing company looked up the vat tests from the batch my bottle came from, and it showed the results were fine. So, either they are lying or Wine Chateau screwed me, or the shipping company screwed me, either way, somebody did because it was half water. Luckily I had a little left over and taste tested it. It tasted like sugar alcohol, surely not 190 proof. I have not experienced anything bad with the 192 proof polish vodka except for the 4% water. That is too much water for me, at lest during the summer. Maybe I am just a picky oil snob. I love the way 99% iso works, I just would feel much better if I could switch to something that is considered safe. I consume a lot of oil vaping and eating it. It has been 5 years straight for me now. For long term use, i would prefer it to be a more safe product.

If the 200 proof does not work to my satisfaction, I will probably go back to using the 99% iso, at least during the summer.

for the naturally decarbed oil, you can always use 99% iso, keep it liquid. After the 100 days to decarb, then allow it to finish purging and dry to your satisfaction. Then eat it, smoke it, or vape it as Skepler mentioned. Keeping it more liquid and shaking it, I think I might be able to get the decarbing process down to 90 days. I would just be more happy if it were done with an organic grain alcohol product.

Again, I will show the comparison results as soon as I can. It got to about 30 below zero here last night!! When the weather is this extreme, I don't have time to do extracts. I live in a rural area and use wood for heat. Been keeping me quite busy keeping the house warm that's for sure!!

 

[Grow Goddess]

IC mag. We call it ic rag because me and a bunch of people got banned from there a couple years ago. Because their sponsors didn't like us.

I did my first posting over there on a cancer thread. Right off the bat ran into a troll! I can see why you call it IC Rag! I am worn out from dealing with trolls!

At least Gray Wolf was nice to me!

 

[Grow Goddess]

Well, back on topic.
I can't help it, I am looking into stomping on my oil a little. At least do a little experimenting and educate myself about the essential oils and more information regarding terpenes and such. Uses and mixtures of essential oils. I ordered a few books. It doesn't mean you have to mix the oils, but if you did come up with a good mixture, why not use it right?

I just ordered some frankincense. Need to make sure it is 100% pure so it can be used as an edible or topical. http://articles.mercola.com/herbal-oils/frankincense-oil.aspx

It may highly assist in fighting cancer. It also contains terpenes. A lot of these oils that are clean and safe can be diluted in water and used in an eclipse vaporizer, the one that requires a torch. It couldn't hurt to put a few drops of concentrated cannabis oil in there too or in place of the water!

Just a whole new can of worms...

I want to learn how to treat my illnesses with natural remedies. I am going to get more educated about it now, before any new health issues start popping up.

Edit: I read a vast amount of comments on the product. Many people swore they had great success with it. Some mixed it with almond oil, considered a carrier oil to be used as a topical. For back pain, arthritis, etc. A lot of small miracle stories about it providing relief.

I have got my hands wet making topicals, but I can't say that I have had any true success masking serious back pain. One of my patients has severe back pain. I can't say I have found a topical yet that made any big difference. I didn't skimp on using quality RSO either along with other essential oils. Mostly the ones I read that PB was using when he gave up his recipe before it got deleted. I even tried additional things, but still, can't say I had any success.

I am hoping the frankincense essential oil will help offer this patient relief. There were enough positive comments to convince me that it is worth trying, especially mixed with cannabis oil. Most of all, what has given me confidence to invest a little in essential oils, is from seeing the difference terpenes can make in cannabis. I personally would have to see it to believe it, and I have seen it.

Here is where I ordered my frankincense oil from. http://www.amazon.com/Frankincense-serrata-Essential-Undiluted-Therapeutic/dp/B005V4ZOT2 read the comments there is a lot of good advice in the comments too.

 

[skepler]

Well, back on topic.
I can't help it, I am looking into stomping on my oil a little. At least do a little experimenting and educate myself about the essential oils and more information regarding terpenes and such. Uses and mixtures of essential oils. I ordered a few books. It doesn't mean you have to mix the oils, but if you did come up with a good mixture, why not use it right?

I just ordered some frankincense. Need to make sure it is 100% pure so it can be used as an edible or topical. http://articles.mercola.com/herbal-oils/frankincense-oil.aspx

It may highly assist in fighting cancer. It also contains terpenes. A lot of these oils that are clean and safe can be diluted in water and used in an eclipse vaporizer, the one that requires a torch. It couldn't hurt to put a few drops of concentrated cannabis oil in there too or in place of the water!

Just a whole new can of worms...

I want to learn how to treat my illnesses with natural remedies. I am going to get more educated about it now, before any new health issues start popping up.

Edit: I read a vast amount of comments on the product. Many people swore they had great success with it. Some mixed it with almond oil, considered a carrier oil to be used as a topical. For back pain, arthritis, etc. A lot of small miracle stories about it providing relief.

I have got my hands wet making topicals, but I can't say that I have had any true success masking serious back pain. One of my patients has severe back pain. I can't say I have found a topical yet that made any big difference. I didn't skimp on using quality RSO either along with other essential oils. Mostly the ones I read that PB was using when he gave up his recipe before it got deleted. I even tried additional things, but still, can't say I had any success.

I am hoping the frankincense essential oil will help offer this patient relief. There were enough positive comments to convince me that it is worth trying, especially mixed with cannabis oil. Most of all, what has given me confidence to invest a little in essential oils, is from seeing the difference terpenes can make in cannabis. I personally would have to see it to believe it, and I have seen it.

Here is where I ordered my frankincense oil from. http://www.amazon.com/Frankincense-serrata-Essential-Undiluted-Therapeutic/dp/B005V4ZOT2 read the comments there is a lot of good advice in the comments too.

You may be interested in Lebermuth Company in Indiana. They extract and sell essential oils and terpenes.
http://www.lebermuth.com

A company in Colorado, Apothocanna, makes a topical CBD lotion that is very effective for pain. It has arnica, peppermint, juniper, cannabis and many other oils.
http://apothecanna.com/

 

[igothydrotoneverywhere]

so apparently there are companies infusing essential oils into their hash, seems like people were really into it, to me it seems like a lame attempt to put flavor back into a batch that is flavorless for whatever reason, while adding weight...so is weed being cut like a normal thing now?

yes it sure is.

 

[Grow Goddess]

yes it sure is.

Yes it is true for the reasons quoted above. Basically stomped on. People don't know what they are doing and just dilute it. There is a lot of that out there. If they are really adding marijuana terpenes back in that is a good thing, except for the people who are getting the marijuana that the terpenes were extracted from. There are other terpenes that may seriously benefit. There are terpenes in frankincense oil that is capable of crossing the blood brain barrier. I have experienced for myself that there are terpenes within marijuana that are capable of passing the blood brain barrier. I am not sure what terpenes those are yet, but I am working on it. There are all kinds of essential oils that can be added in to the cannabis oil that would benefit greatly in regards to specific medicinal needs. I am looking in to that to the best of my abilities. It is not for one person doing the testing, but it is better than nothing. I will be doing comparisons and having results in a week or two. Starting with the frankincense oil and RSO. I want to see if the terpenes that cross the blood brain barrier extend or enhance RSO. Luckily I still have 1/4 oz of RSO set aside because I am not making it again. Very wasteful compared to ND Sap.

 

[Grow Goddess]

Don't underestimate other plants from God or mother nature. RSO is just the tip of the iceberg. ND Sap takes it into the mountain. With essential oils from other plants, you could hit the core.

 

[Bublonichronic]

yes it sure is.

My whole thing is..where does it end? People putting in oils from other plants to "increase" medical benifits, then they will be adding jwh or some other fake cannabinoid to diversify they cannibinoid profile, fucking madness......I guess I just love this plant to much and when it get shit on and disrespected by extraction "artist" it just pisses me off

 

[GrowinDad]

We should always stay focused on the end objective and be open minded. I am finding this "terpene interact" effect stuff fascinating, was just telling the Mrs. about it. Weed may be the holy gospel but, in the great words of Michael Franti, "god is too big for just one religion".

We have two topics being merged into one discussion. One about "addback" to hash from a commercial or consumer-transparency perspective and one about what may be the most beneficial medicinally. On the first, I say make sure it is safe and label it. Let the consumer decide. On the latter, it seems naive to me to believe that all is optimized with only one of gods gifts that the pharma corporate oligopoly has kept under wraps. And I don't mean that conspiratorally.

As someone with a career in food it amazes me how we realize aromatherapy and herbal stuff from a culinary perspective and how it impacts consumer behavior, but what that means medicinally is ignored, both "medically" and how from how the mind, body, and spirit interact. So I am all with GG on unlocking what the mighty OM gave us.

Most all of us got into MJ because we were stoners. OUr advocacy, interest, and undying faith stemmed from that which is all good and valuable. But we shouldn't let that overhadow that it is not the end all.