Neoliberal Economics is DEAD

[god1]

Compensation that workers have earned is still on the taxpayers dime though. If I gave you 100 bucks and you invested 10 of it, that 10 still came from me originally. The logic is fuzzy. The interest you earn from your investment is all you, the investment itself isn't.

Why would investments on behalf of the worker into a pension plan come from a different source that pays his salary? If you are a government worker, how else does the government raise the money to pay you?

First off, I don't want to hijack tt's thread; so if you don't want this in the discussion tt, you should say.

Okay, the CalPers plan has three sources;
employee, employer (taxpayer) and investments.

These plans are "guaranteed" plans ...

Employee's contribution is fixed at 12% or so.
You know what investments can do ... so you see the rub. in the case of the CalPers stuff they are not self funding; Depending on who you believe anywhere from 60 - 77%.

Is your 401K guaranteed? Are any of your investments guaranteed?

Have you as a taxpayer ever been called to the negotiating table during public employee pension arbitration?

Anyway, it's a pet peeve of mine; probably enough said.

 

[ginwilly]

First off, I don't want to hijack tt's thread; so if you don't want this in the discussion tt, you should say.

Okay, the CalPers plan has three sources;
employee, employer (taxpayer) and investments.

These plans are "guaranteed" plans ...

Employee's contribution is fixed at 12% or so.
You know what investments can do ... so you see the rub. in the case of the CalPers stuff they are not self funding; Depending on who you believe anywhere from 60 - 77%.

Is your 401K guaranteed? Are any of your investments guaranteed?

Have you as a taxpayer ever been called to the negotiating table during public employee pension arbitration?

Anyway, it's a pet peeve of mine; probably enough said.

I'm not arguing your points, I was arguing the author's point that it wasn't taxpayer money. He acts as though employee contributions don't also come from taxpayers.

If a gov employee is offered 20hr or 18hr with 2hr put in investments for him, it's still coming from taxpayers. It's not like the 18hr is coming from taxpayers but the additional two is not like he is trying to claim.

 

[overgrowem]

Ok, so let's hear your highly educated opinion?

No U are the one that called 4 a highly educated opinion ...An assumption on UR part that I am highly educated. Flawed thinking, .there is no connection between having attended school in a number of states and being "highly educated".

I'm waiting for your opinion, I made no assumptions. You're the one who talked about your education?

Again no mention was made of education just places of school attendance.
..

 

[ttystikk]

No U are the one that called 4 a highly educated opinion ...An assumption on UR part that I am highly educated. Flawed thinking, .there is no connection between having attended school in a number of states and being "highly educated".

Again no mention was made of education just places of school attendance.
..

So what's your opinion?

 

[overgrowem]

So what's your opinion?

Opinion of what? If U want to know my opinion of Ur cognitive ability it is pretty low, as U have shown with these last few posts.

 

[Harrekin]

So to be realistic, the idea is to stuff as much treasure into your metaphorical mattress while you can cos no one else gives a shit about you.

 

[ttystikk]

Opinion of what? If U want to know my opinion of Ur cognitive ability it is pretty low, as U have shown with these last few posts.

U can't spell

 

[NoDrama]

So to be realistic, the idea is to stuff as much treasure into your metaphorical mattress while you can cos no one else gives a shit about you.

You watch that movie about the old Irish 80 year old school teacher whose family cleaned her house and threw away her mattress that had almost a million Euro in it?

 

[heckler73]

First, you quoted a fictional story that has no basis in reality.

Actually, it does have a basis in reality.
People who make money by moving money see the world in a light similar to Mr Jensen, ultimately. Outside of income generation they may be altruistic philanthropists, but when it comes to "growing" wealth, do you honestly believe ethics and morals are dominant governors in their decisions?

Second, they definitely AREN'T providing for any of the above.

That doesn't stop them using it as a selling point.

Third, if we are to call ourselves a democracy, our laws, rules and practices need to support that ideal. Currently, they do anything but.

What is the ideal of democracy from your perspective? How would one rewrite Jensen's closing lines to fit that ideal?

 

[King Arthur]

I read it and while I wish this was true I don't see how the aristocrats would let this happen.

 

[god1]

It seems to me that the op subscribes to a perspective that the current economic "system" is a "zero sum gain" operation and that the opportunity to break that ceiling doesn't exist equally for all.

His observation that "wealth" is concentrated is undeniable, but the opportunity to become "wealthy" in the US is most likely higher than it has ever been for those that want to. I suspect that the general "public" just lacks the characteristics to do what it takes to get there.

check this out:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101099732

 

[Padawanbater2]

It seems to me that the op subscribes to a perspective that the current economic "system" is a "zero sum gain" operation and that the opportunity to break that ceiling doesn't exist equally for all.

His observation that "wealth" is concentrated is undeniable, but the opportunity to become "wealthy" in the US is most likely higher than it has ever been for those that want to. I suspect that the general "public" just lacks the characteristics to do what it takes to get there.

check this out:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101099732

Could you be more specific about what you believe the public lacks to become financially successful?

Do you believe everyone can be financially successful?

Do you believe everyone is born with equal amounts of opportunity to become financially successful?

 

[god1]

Could you be more specific about what you believe the public lacks to become financially successful?

Do you believe everyone can be financially successful?

Do you believe everyone is born with equal amounts of opportunity to become financially successful?

>Could you be more specific about what you believe the public lacks to become financially successful?

Not sure what exactly what you're asking. I'll give it a shot.

First off, the definition of "financial success" will more than likely be different for all. One guys definition may be to simply pay off his mortgage and have a comfortable place to live in his last days another maybe to make a "bi-zillion" bucks.

Simplistically, you, I, Bucky and everybody else on this site have the same opportunity to achieve our own financial goals/success because of the country we live in.

Is the likely hood of success the same? Most likely not. But that's a different discussion.

>Do you believe everyone can be financially successful?

I believe the opportunity exists for all of us. No guarantees on outcome.

>Do you believe everyone is born with equal amounts of opportunity to become financially successful?

If you're asking if I believe everybody has the same "likely" hood of success when you factor in events beyond their control --- no.

 

[ttystikk]

Compensation that workers have earned is still on the taxpayers dime though. If I gave you 100 bucks and you invested 10 of it, that 10 still came from me originally. The logic is fuzzy. The interest you earn from your investment is all you, the investment itself isn't.

Why would investments on behalf of the worker into a pension plan come from a different source that pays his salary? If you are a government worker, how else does the government raise the money to pay you?

You're describing interest earned on worker's earnings. How the Fuck is that taxpayer supported?

 

[ginwilly]

You're describing interest earned on worker's earnings. How the Fuck is that taxpayer supported?

Read it again tty. I said the interest earned is all you, the investment itself is on the taxpayer dime.

Said it right there in the post you quoted.. damn.

 

[ttystikk]

It seems to me that the op subscribes to a perspective that the current economic "system" is a "zero sum gain" operation and that the opportunity to break that ceiling doesn't exist equally for all.

His observation that "wealth" is concentrated is undeniable, but the opportunity to become "wealthy" in the US is most likely higher than it has ever been for those that want to. I suspect that the general "public" just lacks the characteristics to do what it takes to get there.

check this out:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101099732

This is also wildly untrue. The barriers to gaining wealth if you don't already have it are higher than ever, and fewer are climbing that mountain, not more.

I do not subscribe to the zero sum gain idea. I subscribe to the idea that everyone needs to be fairly compensated on an even playing field. Neither of those conditions currently exist.

In fact,I believe that the American economy would be growing far faster now if income were more fairly distributed and the passing field was more level. The inequities we're discussing hold do many people back that the few getting fabulously rich(er) don't begin to make up for it.

 

[ttystikk]

Read it again tty. I said the interest earned is all you, the investment itself is on the taxpayer dime.

Said it right there in the post you quoted.. damn.

Then you didn't understand the original article. All the money going into pensions is earned income. THAT didn't come from taxpayers, either.

 

[UncleBuck]

Read it again tty. I said the interest earned is all you, the investment itself is on the taxpayer dime.

Said it right there in the post you quoted.. damn.

do you even realize that when a public service employee gets paid, the money no longer belongs to the taxpayer, right?

just like when you go to hobby lobby to buy materials for an obama puppet that you burn in effigy on a cross, the dollars you spend now belong to hobby lobby instead of you, right?

 

[ginwilly]

Then you didn't understand the original article. All the money going into pensions is earned income. THAT didn't come from taxpayers, either.

Sigh....
where did it come from then? The gains don't come from taxpayers but the contributions do.

Again, if your salary is 20hr on the taxpayer dime or 18hr with 2 an hr going into a pension, it still has to come from the same place.

 

[UncleBuck]

Sigh....
where did it come from then? The gains don't come from taxpayers but the contributions do.

Again, if your salary is 20hr on the taxpayer dime or 18hr with 2 an hr going into a pension, it still has to come from the same place.

no. just no. you are dumb. these are employee contributions. the employees worked and earned the money. it is their money now, not the taxpayers.

for example, when you buy your adult diapers for the incontinence caused by your pill and booze addictions, when you give the money to the cashier, it belongs to the store at that point, not you.

do you see how this works?