Israel say's no Palestine, ever.

[abandonconflict]

Sorry if I misunderstood. It was likely because I didn't understand your use of the word Zionism vs diaspora.

I didn't know you were Jewish, it's nice to have this conversation with someone who's on the inside looking out- the simple fact is that since I'm not Jewish or very wealthy- and therefore powerful- this isn't a conflict that affects me or one that I feel I can affect in any meaningful way.

I applaud and support the Jewish diaspora, and their desire to maintain their cultural identity wherever they go- with some minor exceptions, mainly along the lines of getting on with their new neighbors.

That said, Israel needs to come into the fold of mature nations who treat all those they would rule with respect. America should too, for that matter. The differences between the two are more a matter of degree than kind.

I'm of Jewish descent but not at all religious. I study history and cultures so naturally I have much interest in Jewish history but I don't think that it is more important than the history of other people. The fact is that there is a difference between Israel (the Jewish people) and Israel (the nation state). Indeed many Jewish people don't see the difference but the nation state is desperate to own both definitions. From conscription to control of Hebrew language media to control of media in many other languages it exerts much control over many mind. However, it is the most devout among the pious of the Jewish faith, which can be correctly described as a radical fringe, who are most likely to reject Zionism.

Many holocaust survivors also reject it. You have to scratch your head for a moment at that. The major premise of Zionism is defense of the Jewish heritage. Nobody should be more pro-Zionist therefore, than the survivors of NAZI brutality against the Jewish people.

So have some hope, talk to Israelis patiently and find that the most hardcore nationalists are atheists who buy into right wing xenophobia. I can tell you from experience that this is a curable disease.

If you don't believe that people can have a change of heart, what is the point of activism?

 

[ttystikk]

Democracy would destroy theocracy.

I think that would be progress, too.

 

[abandonconflict]

I think that would be progress, too.

I agree, as I agree with most of what you're saying, I'm just trying to interject that many Jews do too.

 

[Red1966]

Benjamin Netanyahu was easily re-elected yesterday by Israeli voters running on a campaign that promised there will never be a State of Palestine, and that a more robust policy of settlement building in Jerusalem and other areas that have been placed off limits by the UN, the EU and the US, will occur. They basically said, again, fuck you to the world at large, we don't care what you ask us to do, we will do what we fucking want to do
This is my question. Should we still give Israel 3.5 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR, even though they as a nation voted yesterday to ignore the request by our government not to do exactly what they voted to do, or cut those cocksuckers off. I would say fuck you Israel, if you want to play by your rules only, don't expect the American people to pay for it, and don't expect any sympathy either when you cry that anti-Semitism is on the rise around the world. You voted for it in my opinion.

We have an obligation to Israel? Who said so, and why?

We did by treaty when we ratified the creation of Israel. You might tried studying a little history. But ............

 

[Red1966]

Saying we would adds inherent protection

That seems to have evaporated recently.

 

[Red1966]

You know what Doer, you want an example of polls, look at the poll that was created on this OP, which is pretty damn close to the WORLDS opinion of Israel, and it's actions Tough shit

You really think this poll represents the world's opinion?

 

[Red1966]

Let's be clear here.... Jimdamick is just a bigot who has found a receptive audience to listen to his hate mongering. You people should be ashamed of yourselves..

 

[Red1966]

The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, quoted in National Journal, November 4, 2010

Their story line is that there must be some villain out there who’s keeping this administration from succeeding.-McConnell, appearing on CNN's "State of the Union," October 23, 2011

But if you're going to make the president's failure your top goal -- and if you're going to brag about it -- you really can't get upset when the president blames you for it and leverages Executive Power

So you're not contesting that Obama has been a complete failure, you just want to deflect his failure on to Republicans?

 

[Red1966]

Who the fuck is we. I've been in this country for a long time, and I never seen a poll asking the American people if we should support Israel. All I know is that our elected Representatives line up for the opportunity to give Israel head, instead of the other way around. Could it have anything to do with money (bribes) given to their campaign coffers, or is it simply the fear of being called an anti-Semite? The American Jew, all 4 million of them, have far too much sway in our countries direction, considering they really are piss ants in the great scheme of things. I wish that the people of color that are US citizens, that were born and bred and live here, or troubled American cities, say like Detroit or Ferguson, were treated as well as we treat Israel.
What the fuck is up with that Doer? Explain it to me.

Once again, you might try studying a little history. Hint: WWII

 

[H R Puff N Stuff]

like i said earlier the US just needs to not block the vote for a palistiniean state isreal has no say in this.that would make both sides accountable because the UN would send UN troops to record whats really going on there and the US can still protect against invasion but we wouldnt have to help anyone hide whats really going on there.

 

[UncleBuck]

Yes. I think this is progress and shows the utility of Palestinian suffrage in a unified Israeli nation. Nothing else will work, short of genocide- and even that doesn't seem to be working.

what genocide? their population is growing.

L2reality.

 

[UncleBuck]

... a bigot who has found a receptive audience to listen to his hate mongering. You people should be ashamed of yourselves..

lol, the irony.

 

[ttystikk]

I agree, as I agree with most of what you're saying, I'm just trying to interject that many Jews do too.

This is heartening news, and confirmation of what I've believed all along.

I'm of Jewish descent but not at all religious. I study history and cultures so naturally I have much interest in Jewish history but I don't think that it is more important than the history of other people. The fact is that there is a difference between Israel (the Jewish people) and Israel (the nation state). Indeed many Jewish people don't see the difference but the nation state is desperate to own both definitions. From conscription to control of Hebrew language media to control of media in many other languages it exerts much control over many mind. However, it is the most devout among the pious of the Jewish faith, which can be correctly described as a radical fringe, who are most likely to reject Zionism.

Many holocaust survivors also reject it. You have to scratch your head for a moment at that. The major premise of Zionism is defense of the Jewish heritage. Nobody should be more pro-Zionist therefore, than the survivors of NAZI brutality against the Jewish people.

So have some hope, talk to Israelis patiently and find that the most hardcore nationalists are atheists who buy into right wing xenophobia. I can tell you from experience that this is a curable disease.

If you don't believe that people can have a change of heart, what is the point of activism?

I'm a student of history in many forms, including the dissection of that written by 'winners.' I DO believe that people can have a change of heart, both for better and for worse. What interests me are the mechanisms by which it can be made to happen. Who would have thought that one street cart vendor's self immolation could have touched off such widespread change?

How can I grab a few of those levers of change and pull them in the direction I would like to see history turn? I may not be of influential descent, nor wealthy- but as a mortal man, I want to see my mark upon the world, something I can look back upon at the end of my life and say, "I helped make that happen. And it's a good thing that will benefit many lives to come."

I want to be one of the good guys in a dusty history book someday... call it folly, call it a religion, call it a desperate attempt to create meaning- but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Religion surely doesn't- and neither does theocracy.

 

[ttystikk]

what genocide? their population is growing.

L2reality.

Exactly!

 

[Red1966]

whoa! did i hit a nerve?





considering the CASH money he pockets, his employees should be making $15/hour for the type of work they do around those chemicals, steam and heat..but i'm sure they're making around $8.05/hour (or less if they're illegal)..because he can get away with it..amirite?

not judging, of course!

EDIT: and as a hiring manager, i'd hire the person (and have) who said they are looking for a paycheck, that means they NEED to work.

dia an hÉireann:

I won't work, but I could use another paycheck! Hire me! Oh, wait, you don't actually have a business, or even a job. Never mind.

 

[Red1966]

well that was a spitter..thanks for the laugh!

you keep saying 'for a pot forum'..why?

FTW: under-reporting is the most heinous thing an american business owner can do..not only is the 'system rigged' CONFIRMED it is conspiring against the american people as a whole. the tax code is broke and every CPA left/right will tell you same...tax code benefits OVERWHELMINGLY the american business owner and they still feel the need to STUFF their pockets. this translates to short-changing the american people.. you see, GW again, it's math..when you take the number of businesses and their projected taxable income, government projects which ends with deficit BECAUSE:..'keeping more of their own money'? attitude..PSSSST: it's not their money any longer and to those, who in the past, had that thought with their employees withheld? never paid the government?..they are vicious and will hunt you down..'but that is my money' isn't an excuse or my payroll company never made the deposits..it's your responsibility as a business owner!

You do know businesses pass thru the cost of taxes they pay to the consumer? Any tax a widget maker pays is built into the price of widgets.

 

[UncleBuck]

You do know businesses pass thru the cost of taxes they pay to the consumer? Any tax a widget maker pays is built into the price of widgets.

economics 101, redtard. competition and substitute goods can and do mitigate that.

hence why federal and state taxes on cigarettes went up by X and the cost of a pack of smokes went up by Y<X.

 

[schuylaar]

zionism is to israel as is tea is to US.

thank you for serving!

i think jewish men are hot

 

[schuylaar]

lol, the irony.

 

[schuylaar]

You do know businesses pass thru the cost of taxes they pay to the consumer? Any tax a widget maker pays is built into the price of widgets.

ruling class 101:

yeah any tax they wish to 'report'.