Problems with LED vs. CFL

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
cal-mag+ is dumb.

It's just watered down calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate, and chelated iron.

You could get those individually, and use magnesium sulfate instead since it's cheaper and you don't need it in a stock solution, and same with iron sulfate vs chelated. Iron sulfate is fine as long as it's not mixed in a stock solution with certain other chemicals, like boron. Iron sulfate (green) mixed with sodium borate (white) together turns into a black cloudy insoluble precipitate. Mixing in nitric acid causes it to turn orange and soluble.. too much info... hmm.
I am under the assumption that you too are a hydro grower? Your take on hydro leaves a "chemical taste"? lol
In the past I ran a few not so scientific experiments with "organic" nutrients against the regular mineral fert I use on some lettuce and came to the conclusion that it is too high of a nitrogen level at the finish that makes people think "chemical" taste. I would assume that a hot batch of guano or cow shit would give the same effect.
Any thoughts on that?
 

tightpockt

Well-Known Member
I'm thinking I'll have to use a different nutrient strategy. I want to incorporate the cal-nit I have but I'm currently using Dyna which is N heavy to begin with. I use a mix of DG foliage pro and maxibloom 5-15-14 sometimes in the flowering stage. I'm thinking about just using the maxibloom with the calcium nitrate. I'm going to have to do a lot of reading tonight to figure out how you do the calculations to find your percentages unless someone can beak it down simple like for me...cough cough @churchhaze
 

SnotNazi

Well-Known Member
WHO THE FUCK CARES?!?! You've mentioned how you worked for a dispensary like 1000000000 times when nobody even asked.
So again...WHO GIVES A FUCK?
Reminds me of a guy at my work - always tooting his own horn about how he did this and did that but when it comes down to it . . . not a very bright individual on said subjects lmao
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
They're called A19 and A21. And the PAR38 spots/floods. There's also a BR19 but I never liked it much. Stay away from the less expensive/plastic Cree "Tri-Flow."
Of the ones you have personally tried, which are the best to sprout seeds under and not have stretch?
 

doz

Well-Known Member
I think what's meant by "spectrum" is that more umoles are reaching the canopy. Driving the plant's photosynthesis harder and creating a deficiency that didn't exist when there was enough mg to satisfy the photosynthesis occurring under lower umoles.

I think the difference between your COB and the Platinum is that the COB is more efficient, producing more umoles. I think the difference between LED and HPS is that you can get the LED closer and overdo the umoles compared to an HPS. I.e., it's just HPS's nature that you can't overdo the umules without burning the plants with radiant heat. It's a self-correcting problem. :) LED makes it easy to do the "more is better" mistake.

How many watts per sq. ft. do you run with your COBs? That's not as accurate as measuring actual umoles at the canopy. But, if you're doing something like 40w/sq ft with such an efficient light (or, have it too close) I think that would coincide with my theory.
I have about 10 sq ft of area and I am running 400w of the CXB3070 (200w each light). So yeah, I am right at 40w per sq ft. Previously, I was running a 1000w HPS over the canopy, about 14-18" above it. Amazing how much that PLED sucked. 287w and I only had it covering a 2'x2' area (whereas my CXB are covering 2'x2.5') and it was not as good as HPS even.
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know SPECIFICALLY what causes the Mg deficiency from LED (I believe its more Mg than Cal, I may be wrong)? I ran the exact same strain (clones) and within 1 week of flowering I ran into Mg deficiency whereas under HPS, I NEVER had Mg issues. Pretty crazy as I really did not believe it would happen, thought it was more of a case by case basis but it seems across the board.

Whats weird too is I grew for a short time with a PlatinumLED (P450) and NEVER had Mg deficiency issues. It worked under the same nute schedule was the HPS plants. Only 1 week in flower under my CXB3070 and I had Mg issues! It was easily corrected and better now, just a bit of a learning curve. Id really like to know what exactly causes it. People say "spectrum" but that is a poor answer and very vague. Trying to figure it out I just have not found any solid documentation.
It's likely that the blue from cool white (or something about the spectrum) causes more chlorophyll to be produced, and thus more N, Mg, and Fe, and S to be needed.. I honestly think the main issue is that most people's nutrient solutions are not perfectly balanced to begin with (in hydro) and that often Fe is on the lower side (iron's range varies from 1-5ppm in hoagland formula alone. I use 5ppm)
 

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
I am under the assumption that you too are a hydro grower? Your take on hydro leaves a "chemical taste"? lol
In the past I ran a few not so scientific experiments with "organic" nutrients against the regular mineral fert I use on some lettuce and came to the conclusion that it is too high of a nitrogen level at the finish that makes people think "chemical" taste. I would assume that a hot batch of guano or cow shit would give the same effect.
Any thoughts on that?
What do chemicals taste like?

I think that flushing nutrients to get rid of chemical taste is counter-intuitive. A deficiency in phosphate, for example, will promote the production of starch rather than putting sugars into new growth. This could lead to a more starchy product that crunches, crackles, and smells like stale bread. This is why a high phosphorous fertilizer is used in tobacco for the ripening process. It's said to produce a cleaner/smoother burn.

On the other hand, too much potassium and calcium toward harvest might mean the vacuoles in the cell will not dry out as much. The more K+ and Ca++ left in the plant tissue, the more water it will retain.... of course that white ash is mostly potassium and calcium oxides. (the chemicals you fed with, aka potash)

In short, I think people are nuts. lol.
 

OneHitDone

Well-Known Member
What do chemicals taste like?

I think that flushing nutrients to get rid of chemical taste is counter-intuitive. A deficiency in phosphate, for example, will promote the production of starch rather than putting sugars into new growth. This could lead to a more starchy product that crunches, crackles, and smells like stale bread. This is why a high phosphorous fertilizer is used in tobacco for the ripening process. It's said to produce a cleaner/smoother burn.

On the other hand, too much potassium and calcium toward harvest might mean the vacuoles in the cell will not dry out as much. The more K+ and Ca++ left in the plant tissue, the more water it will retain.... of course that white ash is mostly potassium and calcium oxides. (the chemicals you fed with, aka potash)

In short, I think people are nuts. lol.
Ya lots of strange thoughts and beliefs with no real science or studies behind it.

What are your thoughts on tap vs ro water? My thought is that unless you have horrible water the minerals and such that are in it are freebies, why strip them out?
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Tap water often includes recycled sewer water from rivers. Some of the potential problems:
-Chlorine/cloramine
-Pharmaceutical cocktail (see Poisoned Waters)
-Heavy metals
-Herbicides/pesticides/fungicide residue
-Persistent organic pollutants, PCBs
-Flame retardants "nanofiltration is an excellent technical option for removal of flame retardants"

Regarding drinking water:
- gastrointestinal viruses like norovirus can survive chlorination, very small can pass through sediment filters
- gastrointestinal cysts like giardia, cryptosporidium, easily filtered out
- hormone disruptors

That said, if you don't add calmag back into R/O water, your plants will be very pissed off, especially if you are running soilless. @churchhaze I do finish the ladies with straight R/O to try and get a strong fade, never considered that might be a bad idea I will have to experiment with that.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
What are your thoughts on tap vs ro water? My thought is that unless you have horrible water the minerals and such that are in it are freebies, why strip them out?
It depends what's easier/cheaper for you... You could either replace some calcium nitrate with nitric acid (a lot more expensive than calcium nitrate), or you could use RO and not need nitric acid. Both are a pain in the ass, but I think the nitric acid route is more straight forward.

I just got done making A+B stock solutions for my DIY mix so I don't have to use 5 bottles anymore.. and to get enough nitric acid for my part A, I'd need to use more than the entire volume of stock solution of the 10% nitric acid I have. I'd need to get 30% for it to even fit in the bottle! So I think I'll be using 3 bottles still... A, B, and pH down (10% nitric)....
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Of course water is recycled sewage!! Think about that one! What is rain? Brand new water?

A lot of sewage this month has come directly from the rain! (drains)

(but i know what you mean.. lol)
A more direct route that can literally transmit viral disease and contaminants, sewage is processed (composted) and expelled into rivers. The next town takes it in, processes it and delivers as municipal water. Neither the sewage treatment or drinking water processing can remove all the contaminants I mentioned and municipalities do not test for all that stuff. Some do add fluoride though LOL.

I use well water for the ladies, about 150ppm 7.5 ph. Seems to have plenty of calmag for ROLS + LED.
 

the dopest

Well-Known Member
Supra, since you are on well water, does that also mean you are on a septic sewer system instead of a municipal that at least attempts to filter sewage? If so, your crap(along with your neighbors) goes into your well water too.

I'm on city water and sewage, my tap water is about 130 ppm and 7.3 pH straight out the tap, plus I can get a water analysis report that shows exactly what is allowed through the pipes in detail. Not all city water is worse than well water.
 

SupraSPL

Well-Known Member
Yes we have septic but luckily no birth control or meds so our crap is valuable :) It is a deep well but I don't doubt it is somewhat contaminated by man made chemicals by now.

We also have a municipal water hookup (unfortunately IMO). It is 100 ppm 7.5ph. Occasionally sourced from a polluted river and who knows what kind of chem they add to it. THAT water is what is polluting our septic system. We use undersink R/O with UVC filter that turns out 2ppm for cooking etc and I haul in confined aquifer spring water for drinking.

400+ pharmaceuticals in the Potomac municipalities couldnt care less. They don't test for much, have look at your water report.
 

the dopest

Well-Known Member
They're called A19 and A21. And the PAR38 spots/floods. There's also a BR19 but I never liked it much. Stay away from the less expensive/plastic Cree "Tri-Flow."
I tried a PAR38 18w Cree in my 2.4 sq ft veg and just changed to a CXA3070 AD on 1500ma, it's like night and day, literally. Having tried the PAR38, I have to say, it puts off a lot more heat, less wattage and lumens than the COB. The fins on the PAR38 were averaging 119*F whereas the COB is on a fan/heatsink from an old Pentium comp and it stays about 1-3* above ambient. My PAR38 is going outside in the security light where it belongs. jm $0.02
 

tightpockt

Well-Known Member
I felt like I should update this in the very off chance that someone might give a shit :)
The fix was a simple one, Like most of you suggested I just added a little epsom ( 1/4 tsp per gallon ) and everything's back on track.
The 36w of led's are slightly out performing the 100w worth of cfl's. I unintentionally created a side by side comparison between the two while vegging in a small space. The led side is cooler, allows for more height, using less power, less frequent waterings ( I hand water ), faster more vigorous growth. The cfl will still have it's uses with seedlings and clones though..
 
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