Official Lolbertarian thread. Discuss the benefits of No goverment

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Yes you do support pedophiles and racists. You don't care if they run amok. Your ideology is childish but you preach it every day.

I'm not refuting the use of force to protect people. I support using the law and law enforcement to capture and put away child molesters and I support the lawful use of force to protect children as they attend integrated schools. You do not. You would I guess, use the free market to do something about it but I can't guess what that is.
If a person IS being molested, there's a very good chance they didn't consent to it. So, in that circumstance we seem to agree they should be left alone.

If a person IS capable of consenting to something that you don't like, but doesn't involve you, your intervening then becomes the molestation, grasshopper. You are unable to refute that and all you have done is offer diversions.

You abuse the term "Protecting a person". You've implied it means, making them stop doing something they've willingly consented to....that's what Prohibitionists do.
 
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Not GOP

Well-Known Member
What do you think about that Cheesey? Did he take advantage of your golden opportunity and knock it out of the park? You have my consent to respond now
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
so tell us. How does consent happen in your world. How does one 13 year old achieve consent and another not? Also, why are you leaving it up to the 13 year old to decide? The adult is the one with the better capacity to make decisions.

In today's society, not the weird anachrocapitalist one you fulminate about, the adult MUST LEAVE THE CHILD ALONE. State laws are in place to punish people that molest children.

Why do you put the responsibility on the child, who is the least able to decide? The developing brain doesn't have full ability to make good decisions at the age of 13. No 13 year old child does. That's why the law puts the burden of making this choice on the adult, not the child. Why do you support the molester and not the child?

It's not my responsibility or job decide what other people who ARE capable of consenting to something, will consent to. I don't own them....do you?

While some people will consent to things I wouldn't, how is it my business or yours to forcibly make their choices for them or to prevent them from enacting their choices if we aren't involved ?

You seem to like to PROHIBIT people from engaging in consensual behavior...why? What gives you the right to forcibly dictate to people how they will interact if they aren't depriving you of the same right or improperly using YOUR property?

You seem good at redirecting, but pretty lame at recognizing your position is blatantly the same one that cannabis prohibitionists use.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
@Rob Roy

This really is your chance to explain your philosophy

We don't want ad hominin , strawmen or platitudes
We want real answers to real questions

I'm quite capable of offering logical explanations to all of your questions. Are you capable of having the conversation is my concern.

I will consider answering some of your questions, but you'll need to disavow your past erroneous allegations you've made about me and be man enough to offer a sincere apology.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
What happens when you have a grievance with somebody who hasn't consented to your form of 'justice'?
That's a good question, which I can get to. To better discuss this, let's see if we can establish some common goals and understanding of what occurs in the present and then move onto how that might be improved.

What happens now in the present paradigm? Is it foolproof? Does it always provide justice ?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
What happens when you have a grievance with somebody who hasn't consented to your form of 'justice'?
While it may be a bit tedious, I ask you to consider reading what I've posted below as an aid to further discussion. It's excerpted from a Rothbard discussion, and I think might help establish a fair foundation for discussion of any comparison of "what is" vs "what could be"....



...One important caveat before we begin the body of this paper: new proposals such as anarchism are almost always gauged against the implicit assumption that the present, or statist system works to perfection. Any lacunae or difficulties with the picture of the anarchist society are considered net liabilities, and enough to dismiss anarchism out of hand. It is, in short, implicitly assumed that the state is doing its self-assumed job of protecting person and property to perfection. We cannot here go into the reasons why the state is bound to suffer inherently from grave flaws and inefficiencies in such a task. All we needdo now is to point to the black and unprecedented record of the state through history: no combination of private marauders can possiblybegin to match the state’s unremitting record of theft, confiscation,oppression, and mass murder. No collection of Mafia or private bankrobbers can begin to compare with all the Hiroshimas, Dresdens, and Lidices and their analogues through the history of mankind.

This point can be made more philosophically: it is illegitimate to compare the merits of anarchism and statism by starting with the present system as the implicit given and then critically examining only the anarchist alternative. What we must do is to begin at the zero point and then critically examine both suggested alternatives. Suppose, for example, that we were all suddenly dropped down on the earth de novo and that we were all then confronted with the question of what societal arrangements to adopt. And suppose then that someone suggested: “We are all bound to suffer from those of us who wish to aggress against theirfellow men. Let us then solve this problem of crime by handing all of our weapons to the Jones family, over there, by giving all of our ultimate power to settle disputes to that family. In that way, with their monopoly of coercion and of ultimate decision making, the Jones family will be able to protect each of us from each other.” I submit that this proposal would get very short shrift, except perhaps from the Jones family themselves. And yet this is precisely the common argument for the existence of the state. When we start from zero point, as in the case of the Jones family, the question of “who will guard the guardians?” becomesnot simply an abiding lacuna in the theory of the state but an overwhelming barrier to its existence.
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
That's a good question, which I can get to. To better discuss this, let's see if we can establish some common goals and understanding of what occurs in the present and then move onto how that might be improved.

What happens now in the present paradigm? Is it foolproof? Does it always provide justice ?
To better discuss this, you should just answer the simple question. I've answered yours already in another thread long ago and you never replied. In case you forgot, the answers are pretty fuckin' obvious.

Now... what would you do if you have a grievance against somebody who does not consent to your form of 'justice/mediation/whatever'?
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
While it may be a bit tedious, I ask you to consider reading what I've posted below as an aid to further discussion. It's excerpted from a Rothbard discussion, and I think might help establish a fair foundation for discussion of any comparison of "what is" vs "what could be"....



...One important caveat before we begin the body of this paper: new proposals such as anarchism are almost always gauged against the implicit assumption that the present, or statist system works to perfection. Any lacunae or difficulties with the picture of the anarchist society are considered net liabilities, and enough to dismiss anarchism out of hand. It is, in short, implicitly assumed that the state is doing its self-assumed job of protecting person and property to perfection. We cannot here go into the reasons why the state is bound to suffer inherently from grave flaws and inefficiencies in such a task. All we needdo now is to point to the black and unprecedented record of the state through history: no combination of private marauders can possiblybegin to match the state’s unremitting record of theft, confiscation,oppression, and mass murder. No collection of Mafia or private bankrobbers can begin to compare with all the Hiroshimas, Dresdens, and Lidices and their analogues through the history of mankind.

This point can be made more philosophically: it is illegitimate to compare the merits of anarchism and statism by starting with the present system as the implicit given and then critically examining only the anarchist alternative. What we must do is to begin at the zero point and then critically examine both suggested alternatives. Suppose, for example, that we were all suddenly dropped down on the earth de novo and that we were all then confronted with the question of what societal arrangements to adopt. And suppose then that someone suggested: “We are all bound to suffer from those of us who wish to aggress against theirfellow men. Let us then solve this problem of crime by handing all of our weapons to the Jones family, over there, by giving all of our ultimate power to settle disputes to that family. In that way, with their monopoly of coercion and of ultimate decision making, the Jones family will be able to protect each of us from each other.” I submit that this proposal would get very short shrift, except perhaps from the Jones family themselves. And yet this is precisely the common argument for the existence of the state. When we start from zero point, as in the case of the Jones family, the question of “who will guard the guardians?” becomesnot simply an abiding lacuna in the theory of the state but an overwhelming barrier to its existence.
LOL

The lengths you go to in order to avoid the most simple of questions.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
To better discuss this, you should just answer the simple question. I've answered yours already in another thread long ago and you never replied. In case you forgot, the answers are pretty fuckin' obvious.

Now... what would you do if you have a grievance against somebody who does not consent to your form of 'justice/mediation/whatever'?
Hire somebody to arbitrate and facilitate restitution if I can prove I was aggrieved. Except in my world the entity hired would not have a forcibly held monopoly on the resolution of disputes. There would be choices.

If I neglected to answer a question in the past, my apologies.

So, how would you use an entity based in coercion and holding a monopoly on the use of force to prevent coercion from happening?
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
Hire somebody to arbitrate and facilitate restitution if I can prove I was aggrieved. Except in my world the entity hired would not have a forcibly held monopoly on the resolution of disputes. There would be choices.

If I neglected to answer a question in the past, my apologies.

So, how would you use an entity based in coercion and holding a monopoly on the use of force to prevent coercion from happening?
You answered a question I didn't ask. Also, I'm under no illusion that coercion can be prevented.

But ok, lets go with what you have here. So you, the 'plaintiff', hires the arbitrator?






That doesn't wave any red flags for you right there?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
You answered a question I didn't ask. Also, I'm under no illusion that coercion can be prevented.

But ok, lets go with what you have here. So you, the 'plaintiff', hires the arbitrator?






That doesn't wave any red flags for you right there?
If you are under no illusion that coercion CAN be prevented, would you say it OUGHT to be prevented?

Isn't that one of the goals that arbitration and justice seeking has? The prevention of coercion?
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
If you are under no illusion that coercion CAN be prevented, would you say it OUGHT to be prevented?

Isn't that one of the goals that arbitration and justice seeking has? The prevention of coercion?
Of course I'd like to prevent it, but I'm debating your criminal justice ideas. The plaintiff choosing the judge doesn't sound much like justice to me.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Of course I'd like to prevent it, but I'm debating your criminal justice ideas. The plaintiff choosing the judge doesn't sound much like justice to me.
Isn't that what happens with government, when the "plaintiff" is government?
 

Glaucoma

Well-Known Member
Isn't that what happens with government, when the "plaintiff" is government?
LOL

So you want to give that caveat to every individual citizen in an attempt to make things better? Talk about trying to put out a fire with gasoline.. Holy shit!
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
LOL

So you want to give that caveat to every individual citizen in an attempt to make things better? Talk about trying to put out a fire with gasoline.. Holy shit!
When you are done laughing, could you offer any kind of refutation to what I said?

You stated you didn't like the plaintiff choosing the judge, but then couldn't refute it was exactly what happens when government holds the monopoly on justice / arbitration of disputes.

Also, did you read what I had politely asked you to read a few posts back and how would you refute the Jones family analogy offered by Rothbard?

BTW, you ask good questions but seem a little unable to consider any information that contradicts your preconceived notions that what presently exists is the best that can ever be. Lighten up. You have potential if you are open to logic and don't jump back into the cognitive dissonant pool so readily.
 

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
If a person IS being molested, there's a very good chance they didn't consent to it. So, in that circumstance we seem to agree they should be left alone.

If a person IS capable of consenting to something that you don't like, but doesn't involve you, your intervening then becomes the molestation, grasshopper. You are unable to refute that and all you have done is offer diversions.

You abuse the term "Protecting a person". You've implied it means, making them stop doing something they've willingly consented to....that's what Prohibitionists do.
The majority of children molested gave consent Rob to be molested. You are a sick fuck. And why would Anyone agree that stopping the commission of a crime is wrong?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
If a person IS being molested, there's a very good chance they didn't consent to it. So, in that circumstance we seem to agree they should be left alone.

If a person IS capable of consenting to something that you don't like, but doesn't involve you, your intervening then becomes the molestation, grasshopper. You are unable to refute that and all you have done is offer diversions.

You abuse the term "Protecting a person". You've implied it means, making them stop doing something they've willingly consented to....that's what Prohibitionists do.
When an person over the age of 21 has sex with a 13 year old and the child says they agreed to it, does that meet your definition of consent?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
The majority of children molested gave consent Rob to be molested. You are a sick fuck. And why would Anyone agree that stopping the commission of a crime is wrong?


If a person capable of consenting to an act consents, can you explain how they were molested? Also you seem unable to separate a generic discussion about consent from your pedo laced retorts. I'm not a sick fuck. I'm quite healthy and leave others alone to decide how they'll live. You can't say the same though.

Wouldn't a molestation of a kind take place when one of the participants is involuntarily accosted or prevented from engaging in act with another person that also is there voluntarily? You know, like being forcibly prevented from engaging in free trade via a Prohibitionist or something.



Commission of a crime you say?

Crimes as defined by statute should be examined. Weren't you just whining about how the "crime" of growing a plant shouldn't be a crime? Wasn't it a crime to help runaway slaves escape ?

A real crime, not the fictional kind made up by the State involve the creation of a real victim, not simply disobeying a malum prohibitum edict.

 
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