HighLowGrow
Well-Known Member
Gotta say thanks for all the great info. It's invaluable coming from people that have the knowledge and have been through this already.
Berry Ryder - WTF let's SEED ONE again Doh!!
- Thread starter HighLowGrow
- Start date
tekdc911
Well-Known Member
rinse and repeat to further lock traits down or stop
tekdc911
Well-Known Member
lol my one year old started screaming so the baby monitor woke us up .... she's been takiing ambien or some sleeping shit the doc prescribed so .... i get the kid happy and im craving bacon and egg's ........i start cooking and my old lady comes out asking about her turtle and bitching me out for cooking bacon ..... then i realized we aint got no turtle ...... O.O
HighLowGrow
Well-Known Member
lmao turtle..............
tekdc911
Well-Known Member
she was going off on me for getting grease on the new paint ???? about the time i was like what new paint i realized she just asked if i fed her turtle or saw it or some shit
<~~~ me her ~~~>
she's a sweet heart until xanax or sleeping meds are introduced lol
tekdc911
Well-Known Member
i asked her this morning how her turtle was doing .... she didnt have a clue what i was talking about .... i told her and she turned red and went and hid in the bathroom for while
HighLowGrow
Well-Known Member
HighLowGrow
Well-Known Member
BHO Butane Hash Oil
HighLowGrow
Well-Known Member
Berry Ryder bud only. Oh so good!!
bf80255
Well-Known Member
just off by a bit highlow
F1 will be a pretty homogenous mix of the 2 parent strains, is that your experience so far? if so then.....
F2 once youve found 2 F1 plants u liked and made F2 seed the genes will segregate and youll get plants that lean to varying degrees to either side... kind of like a bell graph with most being somewhat similar still but some outer weirdos getting all sort of odd combinations.
The F2 is very important because selecting for certain traits will go easier with a homozygous set of genes for the monogenetic (simple) traits rather than a heterozygous set of genes.
but either way itll happen just keep selecting what you want and rejecting everything else. Its much better to breed this way rather than just self a plant over and over thats the lazy way and pretty much destroys genetic diversity within that strain while the ol tried and true method creates it.
F1 will be a pretty homogenous mix of the 2 parent strains, is that your experience so far? if so then.....
F2 once youve found 2 F1 plants u liked and made F2 seed the genes will segregate and youll get plants that lean to varying degrees to either side... kind of like a bell graph with most being somewhat similar still but some outer weirdos getting all sort of odd combinations.
The F2 is very important because selecting for certain traits will go easier with a homozygous set of genes for the monogenetic (simple) traits rather than a heterozygous set of genes.
but either way itll happen just keep selecting what you want and rejecting everything else. Its much better to breed this way rather than just self a plant over and over thats the lazy way and pretty much destroys genetic diversity within that strain while the ol tried and true method creates it.
bf80255
Well-Known Member
YUMMMM
tekdc911
Well-Known Member
ive noticed it happens almost twice as fast when dealing with fem's.....
fem seed selfed and then one of the offspring selfed ... now grow those seeds out next to one of the original fem's and its obvious
the amount of vigor that has been bred out ...
tekdc911
Well-Known Member
roughly 7-10 % return on normal bud 10-20% on shit thats dripping resin and maybe 5 % on some really good trim .... it doesnt sound like much .... but you get stuff that normal smokers only need half a hit to get baked
better returns come from bud thats winterized atleast from my experience
Skeet Kuhn Dough
Well-Known Member
Those are nice, man. That berry looks freaking insane.
EverythingsHazy
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that selfing a plant ruins the vigor over time.
Genetically, selfing a plant is the similar to pollinating it with pollen from one of it's "siblings" from the same generation. That's why all of the babies from a selfed plant aren't identical. If you self an f1, you get a lot of variation in the f2 generation, just like if you cross two f1's.
To my understanding, even if you select the most vigorous plant from each generation, and self/cross it with a "sibling", it will most likely not be as vigorous as an f1 hybrid. It sucks, but the trade-off is stability, and knowing what genes you are passing onto your next batch of seeds, when you cross for each generation. When you use an f1 hybrid, there will be different genotypes causing varying degrees of vigor, and they won't necessarily be noticeable at first, but if you select your parents from the first several generations poorly, you may very well quickly see an extra dropoff in vigor, that could probably have been avoided.
1. Improvement:
Over time, species can "improve" due to genetic diversity, but that takes thousands and millions of years to happen naturally, and would be incredibly difficult to replicate (you can increase size or vigor through selective breeding, but only to a certain point. That's where the evolution has the time advantage of waiting for a mutation that allows access to the "next level". Fortunately, the benefits you can feasibly achieve from selective breeding are still worth something, but you don't need a ton of genetic diversity to for this, and selfing a plant isn't cloning, so there is still enough to get different genos/phenos.
2. Protection
There can very well be one individual in a species with a gene combination that is superior to the others, and making the entire species have either the same or and extremely similar (which is the case with all sexual reproduction) genetic makeup as that one individual, would be of great benefit (It would be incredibly rare for an individual to be born with that exact genetic code, but it is theoretically possible). EXCEPT for when there is a weakness being exploited, such as a vulnerability to a certain kind of mold or pest. If one thing can manage to kill one of those plants, it can kill them all before they have time to mutate protection which could have been naturally selected had there been more genetic diversity.
The thing is, indoors, your population is less likely to encounter something that will wipe it out completely, especially if you are a breeder with a big seed collection IMO always keep a bunch of seeds from each generation of every cross, in case you mess up somewhere along the line and don't want to start from scratch. If you ever need to give your genetic pool a bit of a change to help solve a problem, you can mix in genes from any generation you want. It only takes one plant from a different generation to add a ton of new genetic combinations.
Genetically, selfing a plant is the similar to pollinating it with pollen from one of it's "siblings" from the same generation. That's why all of the babies from a selfed plant aren't identical. If you self an f1, you get a lot of variation in the f2 generation, just like if you cross two f1's.
This however, can be experienced simply due to Hybrid Vigor, which is caused by all of the dominant genes being expressed in the f1 generation, which leads to the plant being very vigorous. A lot of commercial "strains" are nothing more than unstable f1 crosses that still possess the hybrid vigor, which makes them seem more impressive to the average buyer. Breeders get annoyed with this though, because crosses are much more unpredictable when using an unstable plant as a parent than they are when you use a parent that is homogeneous for most of its traits. You should experience the same dropoff in vigor, if you inbreed a strain starting with a commercial seed, by crossing with a single "sibling".
To my understanding, even if you select the most vigorous plant from each generation, and self/cross it with a "sibling", it will most likely not be as vigorous as an f1 hybrid. It sucks, but the trade-off is stability, and knowing what genes you are passing onto your next batch of seeds, when you cross for each generation. When you use an f1 hybrid, there will be different genotypes causing varying degrees of vigor, and they won't necessarily be noticeable at first, but if you select your parents from the first several generations poorly, you may very well quickly see an extra dropoff in vigor, that could probably have been avoided.
Again, to my understanding, genetic diversity has two main advantages:
1. Improvement:
Over time, species can "improve" due to genetic diversity, but that takes thousands and millions of years to happen naturally, and would be incredibly difficult to replicate (you can increase size or vigor through selective breeding, but only to a certain point. That's where the evolution has the time advantage of waiting for a mutation that allows access to the "next level". Fortunately, the benefits you can feasibly achieve from selective breeding are still worth something, but you don't need a ton of genetic diversity to for this, and selfing a plant isn't cloning, so there is still enough to get different genos/phenos.
2. Protection
There can very well be one individual in a species with a gene combination that is superior to the others, and making the entire species have either the same or and extremely similar (which is the case with all sexual reproduction) genetic makeup as that one individual, would be of great benefit (It would be incredibly rare for an individual to be born with that exact genetic code, but it is theoretically possible). EXCEPT for when there is a weakness being exploited, such as a vulnerability to a certain kind of mold or pest. If one thing can manage to kill one of those plants, it can kill them all before they have time to mutate protection which could have been naturally selected had there been more genetic diversity.
The thing is, indoors, your population is less likely to encounter something that will wipe it out completely, especially if you are a breeder with a big seed collection IMO always keep a bunch of seeds from each generation of every cross, in case you mess up somewhere along the line and don't want to start from scratch. If you ever need to give your genetic pool a bit of a change to help solve a problem, you can mix in genes from any generation you want. It only takes one plant from a different generation to add a ton of new genetic combinations.
Last edited:
tekdc911
Well-Known Member
@EverythingsHazy didnt feel like quoting that whole post
just from what ive experienced is a selfed fem is more stable than the parent stock ... but over the next selfed generation the junk really starts to stick out..... more variance plant to plant yes ... but the undesirable traits are magnified ... i would argue for actual breeding purposes selfing a plant more than once in a row without atleast adding the diversity of a sibling is kinda asking for trouble
my hazes never showed any hermi traits from f1-f3 reg ... i sprayed a clone from a keeper and let it self ... the plant i took the clone from budded out to sensi ..... sprayed clone was small but produced around 20-25 seeds first 3 i planted were full blown hermi's .... i dont know what im getting at just kinda explaining where im coming from i guess
and then F4 reg i had hermi's show so i backcrossed to a F1 with a plant that showed no signs of being a girly boy ... the seeds that actually sprouted i had no issues with .... kinda spilt a glass of milk on seeds i had drying so i lost most of them ..... but i got around 20 of my F1's back from a buddy i traded to a few years ago .... so hopefully i'll get a crinkly leaf haze to start over with
just from what ive experienced is a selfed fem is more stable than the parent stock ... but over the next selfed generation the junk really starts to stick out..... more variance plant to plant yes ... but the undesirable traits are magnified ... i would argue for actual breeding purposes selfing a plant more than once in a row without atleast adding the diversity of a sibling is kinda asking for trouble
my hazes never showed any hermi traits from f1-f3 reg ... i sprayed a clone from a keeper and let it self ... the plant i took the clone from budded out to sensi ..... sprayed clone was small but produced around 20-25 seeds first 3 i planted were full blown hermi's .... i dont know what im getting at just kinda explaining where im coming from i guess
and then F4 reg i had hermi's show so i backcrossed to a F1 with a plant that showed no signs of being a girly boy ... the seeds that actually sprouted i had no issues with .... kinda spilt a glass of milk on seeds i had drying so i lost most of them ..... but i got around 20 of my F1's back from a buddy i traded to a few years ago .... so hopefully i'll get a crinkly leaf haze to start over with
Last edited: