51 Percent Of All American Workers Make Less Than 30,000 Dollars A Year

[Padawanbater2]

They had jobs rebuilding their manufacturing bases. We had jobs exporting shit until they caught up. They've caught up.

Show me a source that verifies this claim

You need a source that government spending in the 50's was lower.....

No, I know it was lower. Your entire point relies on the assumption that spending was so much lower in the 1950's that that's what led to the GDP increase per capita, not actual domestic production or growth when the corporate tax rates were higher.

That's what I need a source on

If the company is not a US company anymore, they can still do business here right? If not, then shit, put a wall up around the country and we'll just go that route.

Not if any executives hold American citizenship

Those good paying jobs from Honda, Kia, Mercedes, Toyota and Mercedes are still here. Why are you trying to run them off? We NEED those jobs.

Why do foreign corporations choose to do business in America if our tax policy is so bad?

Do you think it has anything to do with the number of potential customers?

 

[ginwilly]

Show me a source that verifies this claim

No, I know it was lower. Your entire point relies on the assumption that spending was so much lower in the 1950's that that's what led to the GDP increase per capita, not actual domestic production or growth when the corporate tax rates were higher.

That's what I need a source on

Not if any executives hold American citizenship

Why do foreign corporations choose to do business in America if our tax policy is so bad?

Do you think it has anything to do with the number of potential customers?

Damn pad, I can't believe I have to explain this to you...

You were using the higher taxes during a period of prosperity as proof that it was a causation. I sarcastically used lower government spending as the same proof trying to show the idiocy of either claim.

So an executive working for a foreign owned company will have to live under different rules than an executive working for a US owned company. Restricting individuals from job choices helps in which way again?

The foreign corporations doing business here received tax breaks. They DON'T pay our rates. Your solution is to kick them out of the country taking 10's of thousands of solid middle class life long jobs with them or take away the incentive that brought them here. How does that help our economy?

Of course there are customers here to buy their product. They had them here while building their shit in their own country too, but we made it profitable enough to build them here through our tax incentives. Having your way eliminates those jobs, eliminates the tax base collected from those good jobs through workers (don't forget payroll taxes are matched by the company, that's all gone too now) and has 10's of thousands of unskilled people trying to save their homes. Not well thought out.

 

[Darth Vapour]

Then make it more expensive to import

That's how you incentivize domestic production

lol does not quite work that way i mean if you make it more expensive to import tha 800 dollar i phone is now 1300 dollars where does that leave you

 

[ginwilly]

lol does not quite work that way i mean if you make it more expensive to import tha 800 dollar i phone is now 1300 dollars where does that leave you

Oooo I Know!!

It leaves the American people with less buying power!

Tell him what he won!!

 

[Darth Vapour]

Short sighted business leaders, with as little interest in manufacturing as our farmer had in farming, decided their own personal bonuses would be higher if they simply sold their factories rather that ran them. After WW2, the 27 American TV companies including Zenith, Emerson, RCA, GE, etc. led the world in TV technology. Then, the owners of the patents on TV technology decided they didn't need to dirty their hands by actually making the TV sets themselves any more, and they started selling licenses to manufacture, which the Japanese bought.

By 1987, the only remaining American TV company is Zenith. The patent holders get their money, but the American products which can be sold overseas are gone, along with the jobs to make them.

The same happened in high-tech electronics. The integrated circuit was invented in the United States. But rather than focus on selling integrated circuits, the companies that owned that technology sold the machines to MAKE integrated circuits around the world, and now America sells very few chips anywhere. The patent holders have their money, but the cash flow from sales of manufactured goods, and the jobs that go with them, are gone. When Seymour Cray needed custom chips for his supercomputers, he had to order them from Japan.

The same thing has been happening in aviation. The airplane was invented in the United States, and through the 60s, we sold a lot of them around the world. But lately, all aircraft sales to foreign countries involve "offsets", a portion of the core technology that gets licensed to the purchasing nation and gets manufactured there. Bit by bit, the core technology gets bled off, taking with it jobs, and cash flow from the sale of those manufactured products. Along the way, the rights to manufacture American inventions outside America leak away on a steadily increasing basis. Even the mighty F-16 is now being manufactured overseas, under license.

 

[abandonconflict]

Why do foreign corporations choose to do business in America if our tax policy is so bad?
Do you think it has anything to do with the number of potential customers?

These right wing blowhards will do anything they can to ignore the existence of aggregate demand in order to justify their irrational worship of the John Galts in society who get rich on the backs of others. They'll even pretend that wealth can be created magically, in the absence of labor.

 

[Wavels]

These right wing blowhards will do anything they can to ignore the existence of aggregate demand in order to justify their irrational worship of the John Galts in society who get rich on the backs of others. They'll even pretend that wealth can be created magically, in the absence of labor.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?
It is that simple.
And yet you fail to comprehend?
Oh well.

 

[Padawanbater2]

You were using the higher taxes during a period of prosperity as proof that it was a causation. I sarcastically used lower government spending as the same proof trying to show the idiocy of either claim.

No, actually that's not what I was doing. I was using the higher tax rates during the 1950's as evidence that having a higher corporate tax rate does not limit economic growth, like you believe it does. Economic prosperity and higher corporate taxes are not mutually exclusive and the 50's prove it.

So an executive working for a foreign owned company will have to live under different rules than an executive working for a US owned company. Restricting individuals from job choices helps in which way again?

If an American executive wants to sell his company to a foreign buyer to avoid paying American corporate tax rates and remain affiliated with said company, then that's simply a loophole being exploited by the American executive. The company will still be denied access to the American market at competitive foreign tax rates until that douchebag (and everyone else with American citizenship) is off the payroll.

Do you think pulling some bullshit like that is OK? What about paying back what they owe to US taxpayers for providing essential services that enable their business to thrive?

 

[abandonconflict]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?
It is that simple.
And yet you fail to comprehend?
Oh well.

No, you don't even understand my argument, as you have demonstrated by your distortions, trimming out the parts you can't respond to, and by your repetitive fallacies. Ideas are great, but they don't become new wealth with out labor. I say 'new wealth', because we're talking about the creation of it, not obtaining it. Labor creates all wealth, ya dingus.

 

[Padawanbater2]

lol does not quite work that way i mean if you make it more expensive to import tha 800 dollar i phone is now 1300 dollars where does that leave you

See what happens to sales if you raise that $800 product to $1,300

 

[abandonconflict]

Also, I'm just going to say it. Iphones are fucking crap anyway. The only part of an Iphone that makes it worth buying is IOS, which IS made in USA. I get the idea that the quality of a product is proportional to the wages paid to the laborers who create it.

 

[Wavels]

No, you don't even understand my argument, as you have demonstrated by your distortions, trimming out the parts you can't respond to, and by your repetitive fallacies. Ideas are great, but they don't become new wealth with out labor. I say 'new wealth', because we're talking about the creation of it, not obtaining it. Labor creates all wealth, ya dingus.

And yet, where would labor be without any innovative ideas?
That is why I assert that you have it precisely backwards...
You are AC...Always Confused.

 

[abandonconflict]

And yet, where would labor be without any innovative ideas?
That is why I assert that you have it precisely backwards...
You are AC...Always Confused.

I have what backwards? I didn't assert what you're saying I did, ya dingus. FYI, you failed yet again to demonstrate the creation of wealth in the absence of labor, ya dingus.

 

[ginwilly]

No, actually that's not what I was doing. I was using the higher tax rates during the 1950's as evidence that having a higher corporate tax rate does not limit economic growth, like you believe it does. Economic prosperity and higher corporate taxes are not mutually exclusive and the 50's prove it.

If an American executive wants to sell his company to a foreign buyer to avoid paying American corporate tax rates and remain affiliated with said company, then that's simply a loophole being exploited by the American executive. The company will still be denied access to the American market at competitive foreign tax rates until that douchebag (and everyone else with American citizenship) is off the payroll.

Do you think pulling some bullshit like that is OK? What about paying back what they owe to US taxpayers for providing essential services that enable their business to thrive?

First I need to get this out of the way. I find your position that someone else "owes" you part of their money to be unethical. Not to mention just icky.

OK, having gotten that out of the way...

Again, then I should be able to use our high government spending today as proof that it DOES limit economic growth. You are making a simplistic argument based on the wrong info. We were a prospering nation during a time that was seeing a leap in manufacturing EXPORT from this country. Cars, steel, electronics. Other countries caught up to us and in many cases surpassed us in quality and affordability. Your way makes goods cost more which would make our exports even less attractive. "Hey, why can't we sell our shit that's poorly made and costs more over there?"

Our tax rates in the 50's were higher but in line with the rest of the world. The rest of the world started drastically reducing corporate rates to bring jobs into THEIR country and now we are out of whack and noncompetitive. What your "proof" shows is that when America is on a level playing field with the rest of the world regarding corporate tax levels our economy does pretty good.

If Tim Horton's wanted to hire an American to run their US division, you want him to live by different rules than if he worked at Starbucks. I can't even begin to understand why you think that's acceptable in a supposedly free country.

You are talking about building an economic wall around our country. I thought you guys were against walls.

 

[Wavels]

I have what backwards? I didn't assert what you're saying I did, ya dingus. FYI, you failed yet again to demonstrate the creation of wealth in the absence of labor, ya dingus.

Ha, hahah. hardee, hahaha.
Wowee.
Have you been drinking?
I hope so, for your sake.

 

[hellmutt bones]

"We just got more evidence that the middle class in America is dying. According to brand new numbers that were just released by the Social Security Administration, 51 percent of all workers in the United States make less than $30,000 a year. Let that number sink in for a moment. You can’t support a middle class family in America today on just $2,500 a month – especially after taxes are taken out. And yet more than half of all workers in this country make less than that each month. In order to have a thriving middle class, you have got to have an economy that produces lots of middle class jobs, and that simply is not happening in America today.

You can find the report that the Social Security Administration just released right here. The following are some of the numbers that really stood out for me…

-38 percent of all American workers made less than $20,000 last year.

-51 percent of all American workers made less than $30,000 last year.

-62 percent of all American workers made less than $40,000 last year.

-71 percent of all American workers made less than $50,000 last year.

That first number is truly staggering. The federal poverty level for a family of five is $28,410, and yet almost 40 percent of all American workers do not even bring in $20,000 a year.

If you worked a full-time job at $10 an hour all year long with two weeks off, you would make approximately $20,000. This should tell you something about the quality of the jobs that our economy is producing at this point.

And of course the numbers above are only for those that are actually working. As I discussed just recently, there are 7.9 million working age Americans that are “officially unemployed” right now and another 94.7 million working age Americans that are considered to be “not in the labor force”. When you add those two numbers together, you get a grand total of 102.6 million working age Americans that do not have a job right now.

So many people that I know are barely scraping by right now. Many families have to fight tooth and nail just to make it from month to month, and there are lots of Americans that find themselves sinking deeper and deeper into debt.

If you can believe it, about a quarter of the country actually has a negative net worth right now.

What that means is that if you have no debt and you also have ten dollars in your pocket that gives you a greater net worth than about 25 percent of the entire country. The following comes from a recent piece by Simon Black…

Credit Suisse estimates that 25% of Americans are in this situation of having a negative net-worth.

“If you’ve no debts and have $10 in your pocket you have more wealth than 25% of Americans. More than 25% of Americans have collectively that is.”

The thing is– not only did the government create the incentives, but they set the standard.

With a net worth of negative $60 trillion, US citizens are just following dutifully in the government’s footsteps.

As a nation we are flat broke and most of us are living paycheck to paycheck. It has been estimated that it takes approximately $50,000 a year to support a middle class lifestyle for a family of four in the U.S. today, and so the fact that 71 percent of all workers make less than that amount shows how difficult it is for families that try to get by with just a single breadwinner.

Needless to say, a tremendous squeeze has been put on the middle class. In many families, both the husband and the wife are working as hard as they can, but it is still not enough. With each passing day, more Americans are losing their spots in the middle class and this has pushed government dependence to an all-time high. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, 49 percent of all Americans now live in a home that receives money from the government each month.

Sadly, the trends that are destroying the middle class in America just continue to accelerate.

With a huge assist from the Republican leadership in Congress, Barack Obama recently completed negotiations on the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Also known as Obamatrade, this insidious new treaty is going to cover nations that collectively account for 40 percent of global GDP. Just like NAFTA, this treaty will result in the loss of thousands of businesses and millions of good paying American jobs. Let us hope and pray that Congress somehow votes it down.

Another thing that is working against the middle class is the fact that technology is increasingly taking over our jobs. With each passing year, it becomes cheaper and more efficient to have computers, robots and machines do things that humans once did.

Eventually, there will be very few things that humans will be able to do more cheaply and more efficiently than computers, robots and machines. How will most of us make a living when that happens?…

The robopocalypse for workers may be inevitable. In this vision of the future, super-smart machines will best humans in pretty much every task. A few of us will own the machines, a few will work a bit… while the rest will live off a government-provided income… the most common job in most U.S. states probably will no longer be truck driver.

For decades, we have been training our young people to have the goal of “getting a job” once they get out into the real world. But in America today there are not nearly enough good jobs to go around, and this crisis is only going to accelerate as we move into the future.

I do not believe that it is wise to pin your future on a corporation that could replace you with a foreign worker or a machine the moment that it becomes expedient to do so. We need to start thinking differently, because the paradigms that worked in the past are fundamentally breaking down.

So what advice would you give to a young adult today that is looking toward the future?"

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/10/goodbye-middle-class-51-percent-of-all-american-workers-make-less-than-30000-dollars-a-year.html

https://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/netcomp.cgi?year=2014


Is this a system worth saving?

Thats where the drugs come in!

 

[Padawanbater2]

First I need to get this out of the way. I find your position that someone else "owes" you part of their money to be unethical. Not to mention just icky.

I already know you believe taxes are unethical. I find the position of one entity paying for all the infrastructure and security required to facilitate successful business and another not paying their share and threatening the US government they'll outsource jobs if they don't lower the rates to be unethical.

You are talking about building an economic wall around our country. I thought you guys were against walls.

Yeah, just like that huge economic wall that was created around the US under Eisenhower when we enjoyed unprecedented economic growth

 

[Darth Vapour]

So, with most of our manufacturing now gone, just what DOES America make? Trouble, mostly. With 4% of the world's population and 18% of the economy, we have 50% of all the lawyers, all looking to make a killing by looting those few industries that still call America home (like Microsoft). Kids don't want to be scientists and engineers; they've seen how little such people are valued in our country. Based on recent history, kids see the "big bucks" are in corporate law, specifically investment banking, leveraged buyouts, greenmail, junk bonds, in short what other countries describe as "trying to make money grow by shaking it side to side".

With America's ability to actually produce products that can compete on the open world market in decline, it's no wonder that the balance of trade is the problem it is. Nobody buys our export products because we just don't make that many any more, and like or not, we have to buy our appliances from the people who make them, which are NOT Americans. (When Ampex invented the VCR, they didn't even bother trying to find an American company to make it, they immediately sold the rights to Japan).

So, what do all these countries on the plus side of the trade imbalance do with their surplus billions? Well, they have been loaning it right back to us!

Our government engages in a practice politely called "deficit spending". Other terms which would aptly describe the practice include "counterfeiting" and "check kiting", but it all comes down to the same thing; spending money one does not actually have.

 

[ginwilly]

I already know you believe taxes are unethical. I find the position of one entity paying for all the infrastructure and security required to facilitate successful business and another not paying their share and threatening the US government they'll outsource jobs if they don't lower the rates to be unethical.

Yeah, just like that huge economic wall that was created around the US under Eisenhower when we enjoyed unprecedented economic growth

Taxes are not unethical, it's how we pay for shit, don't put words in mouth.
I think INCOME tax is counter-productive and unethical the way we use them for social engineering, big difference, learn the difference and you'll be better off for it.

Again, we competed on a level playing field in regards to corporate taxes in the 50's. We no longer do and are feeling the effects of it. It's so simple it shouldn't have to be explained.

 

[Darth Vapour]

And What would be a jailable offense for a normal citizen was rendered legal for the government by the Federal Reserve Act. This was not a popular piece of legislation. In fact the Democrats had campaigned in 1912 on a platform of rejection of the creation of a private bank in charge of a fiat money system. Nevertheless, on December 23, 1913, taking advantage of the absence of congressmen opposed to the creation of a fiat monetary system during the Christmas break, the Federal Reserve Act was passed.