So You Hate the EPA, huh?

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ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
WASHINGTON — The Environmental Protection Agency is emerging as a favorite target of the Republican presidential candidates, who portray it as the very symbol of a heavy-handed regulatory agenda imposed by the Obama administration that they say is strangling the economy.

Michele Bachmann of Minnesota wants to padlock the E.P.A.’s doors, as does former Speaker Newt Gingrich. Gov. Rick Perry of Texas wants to impose an immediate moratorium on environmental regulation.

Representative Ron Paul of Texas wants environmental disputes settled by the states or the courts. Herman Cain, a businessman, wants to put many environmental regulations in the hands of an independent commission that includes oil and gas executives. Jon M. Huntsman Jr., the former Utah governor, thinks most new environmental regulations should be shelved until the economy improves.

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Only Mitt Romney, the former Massachusetts governor, has a kind word for the E.P.A., and that is qualified by his opposition to proposed regulation of carbon dioxide and other gases that contribute to global warming.
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Beijing is what you end up with without environmental regulations, i.e. a free market, like conservatives and libertarians on RIU advocate for. Ted Cruz hates it so much he mentioned it twice while listing agencies he'd abolish
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No...

They are lacking in environmental regulations but they are most fucking definately NOT a free market...

It's China, ie Communism, ie not free market with the single exception of Hong Kong.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
No...

They are lacking in environmental regulations but they are most fucking definately NOT a free market...

It's China, ie Communism, ie not free market with the single exception of Hong Kong.
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Are you claiming the environmental issue in Beijing are because of communism? If not, where would you lay blame?

Are you denying my claim that without EPA regulations, you end up with places like Beijing?
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Are you claiming the environmental issue in Beijing are because of communism? If not, where would you lay blame?

Are you denying my claim that without EPA regulations, you end up with places like Beijing?
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Im saying using "free markets" as a whipping boy is inaccurate and intellectually deceiving.

China doesn't give a shit about environmental matters, they're building coal fired power stations like you can't imagine, all of this is the cause of the smog in Beijing, not "free markets".

For the record, who do you think orders these power stations to be built in a Communist system?
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
Im saying using "free markets" as a whipping boy is inaccurate and intellectually deceiving.

China doesn't give a shit about environmental matters, they're building coal fired power stations like you can't imagine, all of this is the cause of the smog in Beijing, not "free markets".
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"China doesn't give a shit about environmental matters"

Yet a lack of regulation - which if enacted would ensure China does give a shit about environmental matters isn't responsible...

"They don't give a shit about this, but if they did, they would!"

OK bud..
Harrekin said:
For the record, who do you think orders these power stations to be built in a Communist system?
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You didn't answer my questions. What was your reason for bringing up communism if you don't believe it plays a role in the environmental catastrophe taking place in Beijing? Was it simply to blame communism and implicate China?

You also didn't answer my question about the absence of a state with EPA regulations
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
"China doesn't give a shit about environmental matters"

Yet a lack of regulation - which if enacted would ensure China does give a shit about environmental matters isn't responsible...

"They don't give a shit about this, but if they did, they would!"

OK bud..

You didn't answer my questions. What was your reason for bringing up communism if you don't believe it plays a role in the environmental catastrophe taking place in Beijing? Was it simply to blame communism and implicate China?

You also didn't answer my question about the absence of a state with EPA regulations
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Are you stupid?

I said you comparing a free market to environmental problems and using China was a non representative example.

I don't disagree with Environmental Protections, I do disagree with people using non related bullshit to try make a point where there is none.
 
Padawanbater2

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
I said you comparing a free market to environmental problems and using China was a non representative example.
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Then please, list the stringent EPA regulations China requires

Oh, none? Exactly how republicans and libertarians want it to be in the US?

Is there any existing definition of a "free market" outside China? Go ahead and list it for us
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater2 said:
Then please, list the stringent EPA regulations China requires

Oh, none? Exactly how republicans and libertarians want it to be in the US?

Is there any existing definition of a "free market" outside China? Go ahead and list it for us
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I think you're confused, Hong Kong is a SAD of China.

It is the only part of China that has a pseudo free market and it was administered by Britain until recent years.

Remember the protests?

It's because China was trying to put their crony in charge who'd fuck up the nice setup they have for themselves there.
 
NLXSK1

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
This must be why padwan is so confused.

Here is his logic. Free markets are bad and pollution is bad so China must have free markets because they have bad pollution.... LOL!!!! Go to LA in the summertime... The free markets are rampant there too!!!
 
C

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
No...

They are lacking in environmental regulations but they are most fucking definately NOT a free market...

It's China, ie Communism, ie not free market with the single exception of Hong Kong.
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India is a free market.
Their pollution is even worse
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
ChesusRice said:
India is a free market.
Their pollution is even worse
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Again, I'm not saying I support pollution but his argument made no sense.

EU countries have freer markets than the US yet far more stringent Environmental regulations.

One is not conditional on the other.
 
see4

see4

Well-Known Member
Actually I can see how Pada drew his conclusion. And I will use your coal power plant as a point of reference Harrekin.

Smog and pollution in China is a result of an unregulated energy and product production explosion. Why? Because more power is required to build more shit. Why? They build more shit because people are buying it. Why? Because free markets around the world, that are unregulated, are driving prices down. So? Isn't that a good thing? Well, yes and no. Yes it's great for the single consumer who buys that fancy KitchenAid mixer, but bad on the ecology. China doesn't necessarily have to be the "free market" for it to see the impact.

However, in this instance, it is wrong to say that China does not have some sort of free market. Though a communist country politically, the production and sale of goods is quite open. Or using the analogous taxonomy, free.
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
see4 said:
Actually I can see how Pada drew his conclusion. And I will use your coal power plant as a point of reference Harrekin.

Smog and pollution in China is a result of an unregulated energy and product production explosion. Why? Because more power is required to build more shit. Why? They build more shit because people are buying it. Why? Because free markets around the world, that are unregulated, are driving prices down. So? Isn't that a good thing? Well, yes and no. Yes it's great for the single consumer who buys that fancy KitchenAid mixer, but bad on the ecology. China doesn't necessarily have to be the "free market" for it to see the impact.

However, in this instance, it is wrong to say that China does not have some sort of free market. Though a communist country politically, the production and sale of goods is quite open. Or using the analogous taxonomy, free.
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You can produce whatever the Govt tells you you can produce, and only if you follow the stringent rules and pay tribute...

Hardly a "Free Market" by the traditional definition.
 
see4

see4

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
You can produce whatever the Govt tells you you can produce, and only if you follow the stringent rules and pay tribute...

Hardly a "Free Market" by the traditional definition.
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What can't China produce? Never mind tribute, in every country its producers must pay tribute to produce. Some get away with bribes in order to "pay less". Brazil for example, if you are not located in Sao Paulo, Rio or Brasilia, you are likely able to get away with paying very little "tribute" to local government. I can't speak first hand about China's business practices in that sense, but I can assume they are similar.
 
pnwmystery

pnwmystery

Well-Known Member
Harrekin said:
You can produce whatever the Govt tells you you can produce, and only if you follow the stringent rules and pay tribute...

Hardly a "Free Market" by the traditional definition.
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Really hate to break it to you, but while the Chinese government is Communist, throughout the 1970s and 1980s they had fiscal decentralization, massive privatization of state enterprises, diversified their banking system though still it maintains state control, they developed a stock market, and they opened up their economy to foreign investment and foreign trade. China is more of a free market economy than a classical Communist economy.
 
Harrekin

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
pnwmystery said:
Really hate to break it to you, but while the Chinese government is Communist, throughout the 1970s and 1980s they had fiscal decentralization, massive privatization of state enterprises, diversified their banking system though still it maintains state control, they developed a stock market, and they opened up their economy to foreign investment and foreign trade. China is more of a free market economy than a classical Communist economy.
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And yet the state has final say on everything and total control of the economy.

Just because they "tolerate" some/most private industry, they still must operate under strict regulations.

People calling China a free market, unbelievable.
 
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