Have any of you DIY COB Growers finished a crop under 1000W DE HPS? - POLL

[Sativied]

I own some COBs but am still interested in DE HPS, so not everyone here is closed minded. The only thing keeping me from trying DE is the height restriction. Sativied says thousands of growers are using DE in 7' tents, while patrickkawi37 says he gets better results from SE even with 9' ceilings. So there is no consensus on the height thing. Makes me want to buy a pair of AC/DE rigs just to see for myself. If the light is too intense I'm sure they'll be easy to sell anyway.

Consensus is a rare thing in these matters, but what you can easily learn for a fact is that not everyone is having heat problems with 1000DE. Appearantly there are ways to handle it depending on several circumstances other than limited height. The common distance in small setups is 75-100cm. And that includes running 1150 and tall haze varieties. With one bulb no ac is required either, just a good exhaust matching the light (1 m3/h per watt of hps, that's where many go wrong). 2 is still doable but harder without ac in warmer areas/seasons. Pull air from room through tent to window.

 

[BOBBY_G]

i hate that i have to run the HPS room cooler due to higher leaf temps

LEDs win hands down in terms of keeping the room at the optimum temps for metabolism w/co2 without stressing the plant from hi leaf temps

 

[J Bleezy]

Not everything is as it seems on paper. This is Is why some people own businesses .. And some talk about owning them. Anyone can think they are right with some numbers on a piece of paper. I overshoot my estimated run costs by 20% almost every time. Nothing is what it seems. You'll always use more light, nutes, break shit. Stuff costs money. It is not cheap to grow cannabis.. There are very very few making the insane bucks that most of you think is out there.. Dudes might be doing well with LEDs but they aren't worth the investment you can argue it til you're blue in the face. Someone stated about about how there are plans this and someone talking about that. Let's fucking see these fat shops with nothing but led. No one in my circle fucks with it, and we all clear over 2 per lamp EVERYTIME. So we are doing something right. An average 5k sqft warehouse costs upwards of 100k to setup. The way I see it, you don't get that money back for a year. And that's with hps budget growing.. Who's to say you don't get your door kicked in.. We're trying to turn a profit here, kinda hard to do when you fork out 10x the investment for gear.. For what? So you can be with the coolest hottest new gear? I pull 3 per 1k fixture on a consistent basis , why The fuck would I change anything? To lower my electric bill? Who the fuck cares about the electric bill when you're talking about buying 60+ fixtures for 2k a pop lol. That's like 8 years worth of electric bills to save 20% or so on my power bill... Where is my math wrong here? Where is the return on investment . Anyone that says they plan on getting there money back first round. Has never grown more than a couple lights . And dude above says he can payback an LED grow first batch. Have you ever grown anything more than a closet setup? No comercial grower is going to grow with 315watt cmh either hahhah

https://www.rollitup.org/t/50000-square-feet-colorado-legal-rec-grow.883667/
They are running the philips 315's

 

[CaliWorthington]

i have two ac/des in a 5x9 gorilla right now at 36" from canopy. its been cold last few days (30s at night, 50s in day). tent has not gone over 90 so ive been running them at 1100. if it gets too hot out ill dial them down to 850

loving the solistek matrix ballasts with these

ACDE crushes the gavita indoors in every respect. better coverage/footprint, air coolable, remote ballast...

not even a fair fight, look at that footprint at 36"

http://growershouse.com/images/DE_TEST_INFOGRAPHIC.pdf

i was over HPS but i bought "the best" (solis/ushio/acde) to have as a reference tent.

in general in the last few years my results from (good) blurples are better than anything id ever done in almost 2 decades of hps. i guess i dont get the guys that have to rally for their setups. esp the guy above that is the gavita fanboy. yes they work and are cheap, which is why they lead the market.

def get what you can out of your hps because there wil come a time (soon) when an entire cob setup is cheaper than what you spend on bulbs in 2 years

you haters should build the shittiest cob rig you can. take a citled with the cheapest driver you can find and run it out to 4.6A at well under a dollar a watt, and watch it beat hps.

I am a Ushio fan as well. I would try the Opti Red bulb since it's less powerful. My drip tables are pretty low, but no way can I squeeze 29.5-36" between light and canopy. I'll have to put some pots on the ground in a tent to try it. At 18-24" it would probably be a no-go.

Consensus is a rare thing in these matters, but what you can easily learn for a fact is that not everyone is having heat problems with 1000DE. Appearantly there are ways to handle it depending on several circumstances other than limited height. The common distance in small setups is 75-100cm. And that includes running 1150 and tall haze varieties. With one bulb no ac is required either, just a good exhaust matching the light (1 m3/h per watt of hps, that's where many go wrong). 2 is still doable but harder without ac in warmer areas/seasons. Pull air from room through tent to window.

I would use the AC/DE reflector, so not worried about the heat, but rather, too much light intensity. I guess you can dial them down, but it's not optimal.

 

[ttystikk]

600-700 watt replacement fixture for a Gavita is not worth it when you could replace 1000 watt of Gavitas with 1000 watt of COBs and get a greatly increased yield.
More yield brings more money than reduced energy costs.

So now you get better yield for the same watts. Still get the heat savings. Win/win!

 

[Stephenj37826]

I can only assume you offer crap if you have to slander gavita with nonsense like pretending gavitas need plasmas and the bullshit above.

""""""
My friend Jorge asked me to jump in here to answer a few questions. Gavita has been active in the horticultural market as one of the market leaders for More than 30 years now. We developed and introduced the electronic ballast into the horticultural market in 2003. We also introduced Miro aluminum for reflectors, the 600W HPS lamp, metal ballast housings, the internal reflector lamp etc etc. Gavita Holland started in 2010 as a spin-off company to adapt the highly efficient professional concepts to the hobby market and to make new technology available there. Mostly the same people that equip 100,000 lamp greenhouse projects and professional climate rooms now share their professional experience in this market. So Gavita is not the average company that sources Chinese ballast and puts their own name on it, we have a long history in professional lighting development.

The Philips double ended lamps have been on the (professional) market for about 10 years now. During these years they optimized the lamp and electronic ballast that was developed for it. The ballast is already in its third generation, the last lamp improvement was about 2 years ago, changing to the "plus" type, outputting 2100 umol s-1. Philips is currently the market leader in HID lamps with a market share world wide of about 60%. Philips is by far market leader in the horticultural market in Europe where we do not grow a crop that offers you a ROI of 3 months of course, and efficiency is key to a profitable grow. So growers choose the most efficient systems on e market.

Three years ago we introduced this lamp to the hobby market, equipped with a ballast that was suitable for 240V instead of 400V. Until that time it was only available for 400V professional 3 phase systems. The combination of this lamp and the very efficient open reflector created a bit of a hype around this lamp and it has proved to be a great success. It was awarded the European Product Award, the HT stash Award etc. Breeders like DNA genetics, Greenhouse, Serious Seeds, Sannies Seeds and many others use or switched to Gavita systems. The reason? More light for your buck and better results.

There is not lamp on this market that has a higher output or efficiency. The light maintenance is better than 96% per year of use, which means that after a year of use it outputs still more light than any other new lamp in this market. In our light lab, where we have a calibrated Ulbricht sphere to our disposal (the ONLY way to test light output of a lamp!) we tested the most popular lamps on the market. The runner-up was Hortilux with less than 1800 umol, so about 15% less output using the same power. Together with the highly efficient HR96 reflector we offer (96% efficiency) that is up to 40 (!) % more light compared to an air cooled reflector. So it is not strange that growers report 15-50% more yield using the Gavita Pro 1000. ROI is a no-brainier of course.
""""" (posted by whazzup in 2013, who basically introduced DE and gavitas to cannabis growers, was admin at the oldest and largest dutch grow forum).


Not one of those dudes, DE doesn't require hyping, but, I can tell you it's commonly used by thousands of growers in 200-210cm high tents. 7 feet. I posted examples a week or two ago. They don't pull 1.7 though...

And I should say 'was' commonly used as they are no longer available in NL for cannabis growers. Gavita is so 2015... Dimlux is the hot shit... No pun intended. http://dimlux.nl (

Slandering Gavita? When? So you are saying that Gavita doesnt recommend there plasma as supplemental spectrum to there de fixtures for increased quality? I never once said Gavita produces bad quality now did I? I'm not going to argue anymore. Time will tell the tale and yes that fixture is duct cooled they aren't hooked up in the pic.

 

[ttystikk]

here is EXACTLY my point. He is SO heavily invested, his opinion has become one sided. had he bought DE's, he would be singing their praises. He will deny it and scream a bunch of shit about led's in 2 years,yada,yada,yada, but it IS because he is deep in it now.

Dude, I just got them. An HID user would still run his new lamps, right? Your assertion is that somehow making a rational decision is suspect.

And I looked at DE, it wouldn't work for me. That's why I went with what turned out to be very inefficient 860W CDM lamps on magnetic ballasts. Spectrum and frost is better, yield not.

And finally, don't you go besmirching my reputation without a shred of evidence, a**hole. I don't lie about my crops, I don't pad numbers and I call them like I see them, loudmouth. I'll thank you to do the same, at least when it comes to me.

 

[Sativied]

I would use the AC/DE reflector, so not worried about the heat, but rather, too much light intensity. I guess you can dial them down, but it's not optimal.

I see... removes heat without cooling the bulb they say. I still think it's silly to use a closed vented hood but if it works for you...

The results in that growerhouse pdf are clearly skewed. It should be obvious the output of the bulb is not actually that much higher. In a situation where the walls surrounding that footprint are reflective or there are many overlapping bulbs the comparison would be more balanced. Just as the values vary per height for the same reflector they differ per height across different reflectors. Without wall reflection a reflector that bundles the light more narrowly...

Unless you are going to use it on 3x3 or something there's no need to worry about too much light intensity.

 

[CaliWorthington]

I see... removes heat without cooling the bulb they say. I still think it's silly to use a closed vented hood but if it works for you...

The results in that growerhouse pdf are clearly skewed. It should be obvious the output of the bulb is not actually that much higher. In a situation where the walls surrounding that footprint are reflective or there are many overlapping bulbs the comparison would be more balanced. Just as the values vary per height for the same reflector they differ per height across different reflectors. Without wall reflection a reflector that bundles the light more narrowly...

Unless you are going to use it on 3x3 or something there's no need to worry about too much light intensity.

Actually you can take the glass completely off the AC/DE and it still cools the enclosure but not the bulb. I'll say it again, great design.

 

[BOBBY_G]

Not everything is as it seems on paper. This is Is why some people own businesses .. And some talk about owning them. Anyone can think they are right with some numbers on a piece of paper. I overshoot my estimated run costs by 20% almost every time. Nothing is what it seems. You'll always use more light, nutes, break shit. Stuff costs money. It is not cheap to grow cannabis.. There are very very few making the insane bucks that most of you think is out there.. Dudes might be doing well with LEDs but they aren't worth the investment you can argue it til you're blue in the face. Someone stated about about how there are plans this and someone talking about that. Let's fucking see these fat shops with nothing but led. No one in my circle fucks with it, and we all clear over 2 per lamp EVERYTIME.

no but really, im glad to hear youre approaching 1 GPW, nice work!

 

[BOBBY_G]

I see... removes heat without cooling the bulb they say. I still think it's silly to use a closed vented hood but if it works for you...

The results in that growerhouse pdf are clearly skewed. It should be obvious the output of the bulb is not actually that much higher. In a situation where the walls surrounding that footprint are reflective or there are many overlapping bulbs the comparison would be more balanced. Just as the values vary per height for the same reflector they differ per height across different reflectors. Without wall reflection a reflector that bundles the light more narrowly...

Unless you are going to use it on 3x3 or something there's no need to worry about too much light intensity.

yeah i dunno, those guys sell all that gear and have done the same measurements on dozens and dozens of fixtures. 600-800@ 36" is consistent with the measurements with my li-cor in my tent, its super uniform

 

[BOBBY_G]

Actually you can take the glass completely off the AC/DE and it still cools the enclosure but not the bulb. I'll say it again, great design.

yeah i thought about that but i dont want air bypassing my filter, even a tiny amount. still plenty of light with the glass on even tho i know it eats 4%

 

[BOBBY_G]

If a LED unit hits the market that grows as much weed as my DE and uses less power to do it.I'll be first in line to buy it.
I don't want to spend 2500 bucks on 3 units to replace my 1 gavita either.

ok here ya go. this single unit should out yield your hps

http://www.bcblondes.com/Cree-cxb-3590-led-grow-light-with-meanwell-driver-p/bcb-900rw.htm

theres about $1100 in parts in that light its a pretty good deal

lets just say that is a mere 10% more efficient than your HPS- you'll pay for it in less than a year. im betting its more like 30% more yield watt per watt with better quality

 

[chuck estevez]

lol, funny how butthurt they get when presented with the facts.

 

[chuck estevez]

Dude, I just got them. An HID user would still run his new lamps, right? Your assertion is that somehow making a rational decision is suspect.

And I looked at DE, it wouldn't work for me. That's why I went with what turned out to be very inefficient 860W CDM lamps on magnetic ballasts. Spectrum and frost is better, yield not.

And finally, don't you go besmirching my reputation without a shred of evidence, a**hole. I don't lie about my crops, I don't pad numbers and I call them like I see them, loudmouth. I'll thank you to do the same, at least when it comes to me.

my opinion is that you have spent so much money, your opinion is now one sided. call me whatever names you want child the truth hurts and im just the messenger.

 

[GreenSanta]

how can they sell it for so cheap? looking at how much I spent for a 400watts DIY with the same components I agree this seems like a great deal.

 

[BOBBY_G]

lol, funny how butthurt they get when presented with the facts.

i know, its hilarious. then they act as if they are some top shelf pro-grower using decades old streetlamps. you just cant argue efficiency with people who dont understand it i guess

 

[BOBBY_G]

how can they sell it for so cheap? looking at how much I spent for a 400watts DIY with the same components I agree this seems like a great deal.

they prob buy in bulk

units/our cost/their cost
cobs/$50/$40
drivers/$60/45
etc.

casing including heatsink and fans is prob <$50 from china in 100 lots

 

[Sativied]

Slandering Gavita? When? So you are saying that Gavita doesnt recommend there plasma as supplemental spectrum to there de fixtures for increased quality? I never once said Gavita produces bad quality now did I? I'm not going to argue anymore.

Good, cause you suck at "arguing" with your strawman attack. You tried to justify the cost of led by implying gavitas need plasma. Gavita recommends plasma as supplemental spectrum to make money, not, as you appearantly agree, because one cannot grow quality without it.

Your strawman: "So you are saying that Gavita doesnt recommend their plasma as supplemental spectrum to their DE fixtures for increased quality?"

No, that's not exactly my claim. But, it is obvious you claim they do recommend their plasma as supplemental spectrum to their DE fixtures. By itself a true statement, but that does not apply to every interpretation, including yours. What it means is that gavita recommends their plasma IF YOU want to (which should be out of need) supplement and complete the spectrum. It does not mean gavita recommends DE users get a plasma by default. It doesn't even get interesting unless you use 4 x HPS and can put the plasma in the middle.

Gavita's recommendation to use plasma to supplement hps simply doesn't make led any less expensive.

Phillips has recommended the hpi-t plus (mh) bulb (somewhat similar output as some 315watters) as supplement to hps - essentially to make up for the lack of daylight in closed greenhouses - for years but somehow that never was an argument...

 

[Stephenj37826]

Good, cause you suck at "arguing" with your strawman attack. You tried to justify the cost of led by implying gavitas need plasma. Gavita recommends plasma as supplemental spectrum to make money, not, as you appearantly agree, because one cannot grow quality without it.

Your strawman: "So you are saying that Gavita doesnt recommend their plasma as supplemental spectrum to their DE fixtures for increased quality?"

No, that's not exactly my claim. But, it is obvious you claim they do recommend their plasma as supplemental spectrum to their DE fixtures. By itself a true statement, but that does not apply to every interpretation, including yours. What it means is that gavita recommends their plasma IF YOU want to (which should be out of need) supplement and complete the spectrum. It does not mean gavita recommends DE users get a plasma by default. It doesn't even get interesting unless you use 4 x HPS and can put the plasma in the middle.

Gavita's recommendation to use plasma to supplement hps simply doesn't make led any less expensive.

Phillips has recommended the hpi-t plus (mh) bulb (somewhat similar output as some 315watters) as supplement to hps - essentially to make up for the lack of daylight in closed greenhouses - for years but somehow that never was an argument...

You are correct using plasma doesn't make LED and cheaper but it sure makes A DE/Plasma setup A. More expensive B. Less efficient. Also this totally applies as now with plasma you do have a spectrum that is quite frankly more sought after now than ever before.

Once again name calling and taking things personal is somewhat unnecessary in a discussion between adults. Also accounting for cooling of today's modern controlled environment agriculture rooms does affect total bottom line and total facility efficiency. In a new build out fixture cost is only a piece of the puzzle/cost of setting up a facility from the ground up. I wont argue numbers with you because quit frankly you aren't even willing to put some thought to it and be subjective. As I've said your mind is made up and that's the bottom line.