crab meal vs. oyster shell

Nullis

Moderator
Not yet. I've been studying for placement exams, I just read about organic chemistry or soil sciences when I get the chance. More recently I've had a son to help support and some health issues.

To answer Patt, I use lime probably for some of the same reasons you do. In particular though, I usually mix (recycle) my soil or customize/blend one or two bagged mixes for container growing. Either way I am adding coco coir, and sphagnum is another main ingredient in the base mix.

I use rain water typically ~10 ppm, no mineral content. The plants I grow tend to get fairly large. Also, I consider that the microbes in the media also require minerals. Bacteria and fungi too require Calcium and Magnesium cations for growth and proper functioning. Even roles for trace elements are becoming more apparent. Magnesium, for example, living cells need it not only to store ATP, but for their DNA, RNA, enzymes. The common genus of soil bacterium Bacillus, obligate aerobes or facultative anaerobes all of which are capable of going to endospore and they need Calcium to do this effectively. Additionally, some N-fixing bacteria (Azotobacter) prefer a soil pH slightly above 7.

On the topic of Calcium; I should note that I suppose you could call ionic Calcium 'elemental', but it really isn't ever strictly so I don't believe it would be correct to. Also, Magnesium (in dolomite/dolomitic lime) is ionic just the same. Ions are charged particles or chemical species, with either a net + charge for a cation or a net - charge for an anion. Ca and Mg can both occur as bivalent, monatomic cations. Ca and Mg are both metals and can ionize, losing two of their valence (outer shell) electrons to another (non-metal) species to make a neutral ionic compound or salt. In CaCO3 for example, carbonate is the non-metal anion and it is polyatomic, CO3--, with a net negative charge (also divalent).

Both Ca and Mg can loose 2 electrons to a carbonate anion, giving the respective cation bonded in ionic (electrovalent) fasion to the carbonate. This is different than covalent bonding, in which electron pairs are shared between molecules, and those bonds are generally much stronger. The Carbonate anion itself does feature covalent bonds: those are the bonds that hold the carbonate together. Bonds between the metal and non-metal are strictly ionic, though. Same thing goes for table salt: sodium (Na) is the metal and chlorine is the non-metal, and the bond is ionic. Gypsum is calcium sulfate (CaSO4), and in this case sulfate (SO4--) is the non-metal. Natural gypsum has water (hydration) trapped within its crystal.

As solids, ionic compounds arrange in a crystal-lattice structure. While in solution they dissociate (ions separate, more or less depending on solvent, temp, pressure, etc.) and the ions behave independently of one another. A solid ionic substance can take on more than one mineral\crystal form, with the other forms referred to as polymorphs. For (pure) CaCO3 the other common form (polymorph) is Aragonite, and a rare polymorph is Vaterite. The crystal/lattice systems are the only real differences between them; just the way the molecules arrange themselves. Going back to pure dolomite, in that case it is just that Ca and Mg cations are alternating. Physical/chemical properties are still generally the same as for other carbonates.
 

YesMamNoSir

Active Member
[QUOTE="Schwagstock, post: 10598396, member: 873848"
. m−3.

In acid mineral soils, dissolution and precipitation of aluminium ions contribute to the buffering processes, but most of the buffering in non-calcareous soils is caused by specific ion adsorption at variable-charge sites, in particular those associated with the dissociation of humus acids. Typical buffer capacity values of non-calcareous soils vary from 10 Eq. m−3 for sandy soils to 100 Eq. m−3 for peats. The pH changes associated with buffering are produced by leaching of calcium from soil, or by adding calcium to soil in liming materials.[/QUOTE]

Could you explain this part a little further?? ....The reason I asked this question was because I was going to try and make a soil without the use of LIME. I started looking up different sources of cal-carb and crab meal was listed, though not molecularly the same as Lime. I also found some other sources of cal-carb at the farm supply store. They had oyster shell/coral calcium. This was not the usual oyster shell you find from san fran bay it was pelleted and similar to cat litter on the top and fine dust at the bottom of the bag.

I feel as though I have plenty of sources of calcium in my mix....bentonite, alfalfa, kelp, gypsum, glacial milk, to name a few, I also have carbon in my mix from using horticultural charcoal, not sure what affect carbon has on ph(If any), but I do know I love and won't plant medicine/food or make a terrarium without it. They use charcoal for drug overdoses and poison control by pumping someone stomach full of charcoal. Also used to clean aquariums and can be used to purify drinking water with just charcoal filter. So I like it in my loamy soil because I water to little or no run off usually.

I also have a hook up on organic hardwood charcoal made by a company called "Green Eggs". It is still in the shape of wood but black and sooty. It is not a briquette, would this be ok to grind up and throw in soil mix or should I stick to horticultural char.
 

YesMamNoSir

Active Member
Oyster shell flour is predominately calcium carbonate, just like egg shells, and it cotains virtually no magnesium. Dolomitic limestone has something like 6-12% magnesium.

Ca, Mg and K are 'base cations', simply put they are the most prevalent and exchangable cations in the soil. Good base cation saturation will counteract acidity and these cations tend to associate with oxides and carbonates, which increase alkalinity. Crab meal sources tend to contain from 15-25% calcium, and K is also a base cation.

I would use both crab meal and dolomitic limestone.

With teas, especially the bacterially dominated type, the pH is always going to raise over time no matter what you put in it. Most bacteria produce an alkaline bio-slime.
Thank you very helpful info here......I top dress at transplant with a product called "Peggy Green Natural and Organic Garden Minerals" .... I actually bought it for my tomatoes,okra, and eggplants, but it made such a NOTICEABLE difference between the ones that got and the ones that didn't I took it to the medicine garden. They are derived from Magnesium sucrate, Manganese Sucrate, Iron Sucrate, ZINC OXIDE, COPPER OXIDE, and calcium sulfate. Are you referring to these types of oxides?
 

Banana444

Well-Known Member
Have you ever had a problem using them? Organics seems to be very forgiving, I ammended my current soil with locally sourced crushed clam shells and mollusk shells and neptunes crab meal. If any of your neighbors get food stamps you can ask them for thier leftover lobster and crab shells for your compost.
 

CannaBare

Well-Known Member
Hey everyone! Would crab shell meal be the best option? I just ran out and I am planning to buy more but I found shrimp meal. Should I just go for crab meal? I barely see a difference. If diversity is key then I will buy both!

Thanks!
 

YesMamNoSir

Active Member
It depends on what you're trying to accomplish with each. I ended up employing both in my grow. I used crab as an amendment and top dress for NPK/chitin, and I used oyster shell/coral calcium as an amendment for calcium/liming properties and it's the size of kitty litter with just as long as a break down time so it's a nice aeration amendment. One week after amending my soil with oyster/calcium I could find not trace of white pebbles in my soil. The humus covered it in black goo and exudates, perlite and kiln clay still glossy white though so I have a inkling the micro herd loves this aeration amendment……..PS the same happens to my little chunks of lava rock in the soil, where they get covered in humus FAST. no longer recognizable.
 

YesMamNoSir

Active Member
Hey everyone! Would crab shell meal be the best option? I just ran out and I am planning to buy more but I found shrimp meal. Should I just go for crab meal? I barely see a difference. If diversity is key then I will buy both!

Thanks!
Also another aspect to keep in mind is break down time. I am not 100% but I am pretty sure their mineral content is close to the same (shrimp and crab), but the big difference would be break down time. The shrimp will be a little more fast acting and be a quicker punch to the soil, crab meal is a longer steadier break down of the same minerals, but will definitely last through an entire grow.

An easy way to think about it is how HUMANS eat them. Shrimp can just be peeled and broken apart by your fingers, but the crab shell and legs have to be crushed with metal prongs :)) I would think lobster is on par with the crab.
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
Old thread, sort of, I know, but what about application rates, anyone?

Generally speaking, is it around 1 cup crab meal per cubic foot of soili?
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
Is this per cubic ft of soil? If so that's a lot of calcium..

What else is in your mix? ratios and all..
Especially if there's a strong third-source of calcium in your mix, like rock phosphate..

You could always make more base to match your input ratios too.
 

DonBrennon

Well-Known Member
Very long.
Hahaha, sorry for the sarcy reply, I was quite intoxicated last night................but.............if you do want an intelligent and helpful reply, you need to put a little more thought into the question you're asking.

Are you talking 2 cups of each? (4cups)
Is this a 1st mix? Or re-amend
What is the base? and how much are you adding 2 or 4 cups to?
What are the other amendments you are adding?

As you can see, your question only serves up other questions
 

Amitabha

Member
Is this per cubic ft of soil? If so that's a lot of calcium..

What else is in your mix? ratios and all..
Yes thats per cf I just made the assumption that whoever read it would have assumed its cups per cubic feet. I should've been more clear. I'm doing no till. Theres 1-2 cup gypsum, 1 cup neem cake, 1-2 cup alfalfa, 1-2 cup kelp, 2 cups rock dusts. There was about 2 cups crab and OSF each per cubic feet. It was re amended with another 2 cups about a year later. I asked because I was having a deficiency issue a month after the re amend with a new set of plants that looked like it could have been caused by having too much calcium in my mix and I read that it takes about that much time for crab meal to break down but the OSF is faster. Everything has worked itself out. It could have been that the plants were in store bought synthetic fertilized soil and the switch over to organic slowed its nutrient uptake ability? If not then there was simply not enough nutrients left after my last harvest because a EWC top dress along with a kelp tea seems to have solved the problem.

Especially if there's a strong third-source of calcium in your mix, like rock phosphate..

You could always make more base to match your input ratios too.
Thanks for the confirmation on the excess calcium. I didnt use rock phosphates thankfully.

Hahaha, sorry for the sarcy reply, I was quite intoxicated last night................but.............if you do want an intelligent and helpful reply, you need to put a little more thought into the question you're asking.

Are you talking 2 cups of each? (4cups)
Is this a 1st mix? Or re-amend
What is the base? and how much are you adding 2 or 4 cups to?
What are the other amendments you are adding?

As you can see, your question only serves up other questions
Yes sorry I see what you mean it served up more questions. I meant to say 2 cups each per cubic foot. I was most likely stoned myself and asked a simple question like that when I couldve just looked it up. I have answers to your questions replied above but I have found the answer to my question. Thanks for your reply anyhow, even the drunk one =)
 

MistaRasta

Well-Known Member
a EWC top dress along with a kelp tea seems to have solved the problem.

Always does, Nothing else compares.. When I see a problem I just top dress some neem and kelp, then cover it up with some compost. Deficiency's/lockouts' gone in a week..


You put a lot of amendments in your soil, plenty of organic matter in there for sure.
 

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
neptune crab meal is good. i just got the down to earth crab meal because i got 1 pound more for same price. neptune - 4lbs - $10 dte - lbs - $10

has to do with bacteria interaction to the buffering.. other things buffer as well. coco, compost, worm castings, etc.... crab meal does not. Great for nutes and the chitin is a bacteria that fights off and inhibits pests.

i use crab meal, neem meal, kelp meal, rock dust and homemade castings and compost. and thats its.
Down to Earth is cheaper because they source their stuff through China, I recently discovered.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Down to Earth is cheaper because they source their stuff through China, I recently discovered.
You're replying to a post from 2 years ago.

I learned that too. That's just the neem. They source their products from all over. But there is better quality from else where.

I get ahimsa neem cake from build a soil. I use Neptune harvest brand for kelp and crab meal. The oyster shell flour and fish bone meal is down to earth. I can't find any other brand locally. My rock dust is from rock dust local
 

DonTesla

Well-Known Member
You're replying to a post from 2 years ago.

I learned that too. That's just the neem. They source their products from all over. But there is better quality from else where.

I get ahimsa neem cake from build a soil. I use Neptune harvest brand for kelp and crab meal. The oyster shell flour and fish bone meal is down to earth. I can't find any other brand locally. My rock dust is from rock dust local
Of course Neem is sourced from Asia, boys

The neem tree is native to Asia ;)

If you're getting non Asian neem, I'd be more concerned, lol..

But you guys are two of my favourites on RIU by far, so no beef!

@hyroot do I gather you skip alfafa meal now, bruh?
 
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