Are mono panels going away?...or not?

[JorgeGonzales]

Or on the flip side the highly efficient cobs let you compensate for the lower electrical efficiency monos that in turn help the PLANTS MORE EFFICIENTLY (remember they're the ones doing all the work!) produce essential oils/thc, terps, carotenoids/pigment, etc they may not have fully pronounced under standard whites.

Quick googling on the go:

"PAR as described above does not distinguish between different wavelengths between 400 and 700 nm, and assumes that wavelengths outside this range have zero photosynthetic action. If the exact spectrum of the light is known, the photosynthetic photon flux density (PPFD) values in μmol/s can be modified by applying different weighting factor to different wavelengths. This results in a quantity called the yield photon flux (YPF).[3] The red curve in the graph shows that photons around 610 nm (orange-red) have the highest amount of photosynthesis per photon. However, because short-wavelength photons carry more energy per photon, the maximum amount of photosynthesis per incident unit of energy is at a longer wavelength, around 650 nm (deep red)."

I hesitate to say YPF is controversial, but Bugbee and friends have some interesting things to say:

"Surprisingly, we found that photosynthetic efficiency slightly decreased as YPF increased, especially in high light (Fig. . This indicates that YPF was not a better indicator than PPF of the photosynthetic efficiency of the light sources in this study. Furthermore, YPF may undervalue the efficiency of blue and green light in driving photosynthesis in whole plants and plant communities."

I mean that's out of context, not a cannabis study, and they used 200 and 500 PPF, so lower than we are used to, but it helps me sleep better at night not worrying about YPF. What's cool is that it was a study using white leds, and shows how different plants sometimes behave very differently to changing spectrum, and how hard it is to really tease out solid conclusions, even for professionals.

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__4124704.pdf

Also, another gem:

"The YPF curve, however, was developed from short-term measurements made on single leaves in low light. Over the past 30 years, numerous longer-term studies with whole plants in higher light indicate that light quality has a much smaller effect on plant growth rate than light quantity."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099010

Bugbee stirring the pot as usual!

 

[PurpleBuz]

I never liked YPF because it overemphasizes the effect of absorption, which is actually already integrated in a photosynthetic action response curve. (ie the light has to be absorbed and drive photosynthesis to be measured in the first place)

 

[tstick]

Do you think that, as the cost of COBs goes down, there will be more and more fixtures coming that will utilize more and more of them per fixture until they end up essentially making a panel array of nothing but COBs? Or, do you think that the LES, itself, will just become one, gigantic, singular surface (a la Flip Chip Opto Titan series with the large, rectangular LES)?

 

[Airwalker16]

I'm glad I built my far red light. It is only being used for 5 mins before lights off and 10 after, but it's more and more seeming I should be using it through out all 12 hrs and then also after lights out for 10-15 mins.

 

[Scotch089]

I hesitate to say YPF is controversial, but Bugbee and friends have some interesting things to say:

"Surprisingly, we found that photosynthetic efficiency slightly decreased as YPF increased, especially in high light (Fig. . This indicates that YPF was not a better indicator than PPF of the photosynthetic efficiency of the light sources in this study. Furthermore, YPF may undervalue the efficiency of blue and green light in driving photosynthesis in whole plants and plant communities."

I mean that's out of context, not a cannabis study, and they used 200 and 500 PPF, so lower than we are used to, but it helps me sleep better at night not worrying about YPF. What's cool is that it was a study using white leds, and shows how different plants sometimes behave very differently to changing spectrum, and how hard it is to really tease out solid conclusions, even for professionals.

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__4124704.pdf

Also, another gem:

"The YPF curve, however, was developed from short-term measurements made on single leaves in low light. Over the past 30 years, numerous longer-term studies with whole plants in higher light indicate that light quality has a much smaller effect on plant growth rate than light quantity."

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099010

Bugbee stirring the pot as usual!

Will have to make sure to set and read these later, only been at Magic Kingdom for 9 hours............. (one word: swampass)

 

[hillbill]

How do we refer to panels with white xte's and such or white niches. Mono don't really cover it. I have cobs but I also have 5w white and r/w panels and they still do very well but I would imagine the labor required also will put pressure on their future.

 

[Trippyness]

Let me just say this loud and clear. There are single dipdes that are just as efficient as COBs.
XML-2 XPG-3 among other companies. If you can get a good price on them your golden. Single diodes will always be here. Thr XPG-3 if could get super cheap I would build a light. However COBS are super efficient and price per watt is less than singles. Most companies use eipistar or older cree versions of the diodes.
Singles can be just as efficient but takes alot of them which can be a good thing for spread. Highest umol/J at the lowest cost is what we look for with low heat. If single diodes keep getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper there may be a reason but COBs are far cheaper.

 

[BOBBY_G]

If single diodes keep getting better and better and cheaper and cheaper

why wouldnt they?

 

[Trippyness]

why wouldnt they?

They will but as will COB. Honestly I would rather build with monos for a better spread of light than CObS but its far too expensive currently over COBs

 

[BOBBY_G]

$5-$10 cobs at 10-30W each are pretty much what we want but it will be another year yet. that one citizen is pushing it.

 

[Trippyness]

$5-$10 cobs at 10-30W each are pretty much what we want but it will be another year yet. that one citizen is pushing it.

Lower wattagw cobs with high efficiency. $10 for a 10-30W cob is absurd. Citizen 12 bucks for 100w.
As long as price is there we are golden. Spreading out many is ideal. Wouls love to rock say 10W at 190+ LPW to even out a canopy. Single diodes have their place still.

 

[BOBBY_G]

the $12 clu048-1212 is 172 lm/W at 25W

 

[tstick]

I can't tell if the industry is going to go with making fixtures with multiple, smaller COBs....or, if they might turn to making really large LESs, instead. I have a suspicion that LESs will one day be rolled out in big sheets and then cut to size and shape -maybe even entire rooms/tents will be constructed of walls and ceilings that are LES material so that the entire interior becomes the light, itself....but those kinds of developments would have to be made on an industrial level. Realistically, I think that we'll probably be seeing more and more fixtures with larger and larger arrays of smaller-sized COBs -which is essentially what single diode array fixtures already do (as far as coverage is concerned)!

The question of coverage sometimes gets put on the back burner and discussions change to questions of efficiency...But once the efficiency thing levels out, then the discussion will turn back to coverage again...I think so, anyway. That's what brought the initial topic to my mind- coverage...i.e., what type of fixture provides the best distribution of the light over a given space? A lot of serious companies are involving themselves with single-diode array fixtures and producing lights that are getting impressive results -really impressive results! Maybe they are more of a pain in the butt for the DIYer to wire up...but that probably isn't as much of an issue to an established manufacturer...?

If the question is solely "most even coverage", then isn't the multiple array of single diodes the best provider of it? I just can't get the images of those NextLight Mini 150 watt fixtures out of my mind!

 

[tstick]

....or that Sun Cloak, too!!!!!

 

[BOBBY_G]

I can't tell if the industry is going to go with making fixtures with multiple, smaller COBs....or, if they might turn to making really large LESs, instead. I have a suspicion that LESs will one day be rolled out in big sheets and then cut to size and shape -maybe even entire rooms/tents will be constructed of walls and ceilings that are LES material so that the entire interior becomes the light, itself....but those kinds of developments would have to be made on an industrial level. Realistically, I think that we'll probably be seeing more and more fixtures with larger and larger arrays of smaller-sized COBs -which is essentially what single diode array fixtures already do (as far as coverage is concerned)!

The question of coverage sometimes gets put on the back burner and discussions change to questions of efficiency...But once the efficiency thing levels out, then the discussion will turn back to coverage again...I think so, anyway. That's what brought the initial topic to my mind- coverage...i.e., what type of fixture provides the best distribution of the light over a given space? A lot of serious companies are involving themselves with single-diode array fixtures and producing lights that are getting impressive results -really impressive results! Maybe they are more of a pain in the butt for the DIYer to wire up...but that probably isn't as much of an issue to an established manufacturer...?

If the question is solely "most even coverage", then isn't the multiple array of single diodes the best provider of it? I just can't get the images of those NextLight Mini 150 watt fixtures out of my mind!

not really. any light can provide even coverage, even a 1000W HID or the sun at a proper distance

youre gonna be hard pressed to see more advantage beyond the 25-75W cobs spaced at 6-18" apart. perfect coverage starting at about the same distance fromt he array as the array spacing (if that makes sense)

the downside with small diodes is they are often grouped together. like i ditched my solarstorm 880s (660W of blurple) for multiple 220s (165W total). which work great, and i get great coverage and can make any intensity i want just by spacing.

again indoors anyhting from 10W up to 1000 can be done with proper spacing, but with the thouies youre at 36" or more. with a 10-50W array you can be as close as 12" if you so desire

even in an array i prefer to run higher intensity at higher spacing, say 24"+. get a deeper canopy that way. what some call "penetration" and mistakenly think it is a function of the light tech, it is not. it is ONLY dependent on light intensity and distance from canopy. the farther away your light is to get your required ppfd at your canopy, the deeper the canopy will be. and thats just physics

 

[Airwalker16]

I'm glad I built my far red light. It is only being used for 5 mins before lights off and 10 after, but it's more and more seeming I should be using it through out all 12 hrs and then also after lights out for 10-15 mins.

I'm at I'll using it only at lights out. But I'm on day33 & it definitely seems further along than last run with these same cuts

 

[PurpleBuz]

it is ONLY dependent on light intensity and distance from canopy. the farther away your light is to get your required ppfd at your canopy, the deeper the canopy will be. and thats just physics

there are other ways to get deeper penetration. side lighting, ample green light, inter canopy lighting and lube.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

Let me just say this loud and clear. There are single dipdes that are just as efficient as COBs.
XML-2 XPG-3 among other companies.

Prove it, especially with the white single diodes. Cobs have like, a bunch of leds, all running at a few milliamps. Like, a bunch. It's hard to compete with that.

I need to try to take a picture. Hey @BOBBY_G do you have welding glasses? I bet those would be great.

 

[Airwalker16]

Prove it, especially with the white single diodes. Cobs have like, a bunch of leds, all running at a few milliamps. Like, a bunch. It's hard to compete with that.

I need to try to take a picture. Hey @BOBBY_G do you have welding glasses? I bet those would be great.

That photos been taken and posted here a few times already here.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

That photos been taken and posted here a few times already here.

Great, but I took my own.