High CRI 90+ vs. Efficacy

[Rahz]

Nice. You know I have an appreciation for the technical side of things. It's not as cut and dry as it used to be, and that's a good thing.

I'm planning to run some tests, both measurements and real world. I'l like to restrict the test sample to 5 types. Any comments on the selection or substitutes?

3000K 70, 80, 90 CRI
2700K 90 CRI
3500K 80 CRI

 

[JorgeGonzales]

Nice. You know I have an appreciation for the technical side of things. It's not as cut and dry as it used to be, and that's a good thing.

I'm planning to run some tests, both measurements and real world. I'l like to restrict the test sample to 5 types. Any comments on the selection or substitutes?

3000K 70, 80, 90 CRI
2700K 90 CRI
3500K 80 CRI

What kind of tests? On paper, 3500K 90CRI looks like the bees knees to me. I'm starting to finally get set up here, but I may switch from 4000K 1818 80CRI to 3500K 1812 90CRI just because I like the relative amounts of B/G/R/FR. It's very balanced.

Or I might add 660nm to 4000K. But I think the 3500K should be good for anything I want to chuck under it. Oof.

 

[PurpleBuz]

Nice. You know I have an appreciation for the technical side of things. It's not as cut and dry as it used to be, and that's a good thing.

I'm planning to run some tests, both measurements and real world. I'l like to restrict the test sample to 5 types. Any comments on the selection or substitutes?

3000K 70, 80, 90 CRI
2700K 90 CRI
3500K 80 CRI

I'd like to see a 3500K 80 cri Plus a bit of actinic blues, and a bit of deep reds. Both par measuremets as well as replicated grow off to whatever cob temps you want to compare to.

 

[Rahz]

What kind of tests? On paper, 3500K 90CRI looks like the bees knees to me. I'm starting to finally get set up here, but I may switch from 4000K 1818 80CRI to 3500K 1812 90CRI just because I like the relative amounts of B/G/R/FR. It's very balanced.

Or I might add 660nm to 4000K. But I think the 3500K should be good for anything I want to chuck under it. Oof.

I will be building 5 identical lamps with 4 emitters each, testing at a couple amperages under an SQ-520 sensor. Lamps will then be shipped cross country for practical tests under fairly controlled conditions. Common water/nute source and common air exchange. Lamps will be loosely partitioned so temps should all be similar.

It looks like the 3000K 90CRI (1825) contains plenty of blue. Moving to 3500 would bump blue, green and yellow. I'm still working on getting a quote for the parts so things are still fluid at this point. If I added 3500K 90 in, which would you subtract from the test?

I'd like to see a 3500K 80 cri Plus a bit of actinic blues, and a bit of deep reds. Both par measuremets as well as replicated grow off to whatever cob temps you want to compare to.

I think that would be great but not in the cards for my product line at the moment so it's difficult to justify doing the test for it.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

It looks like the 3000K 90CRI (1825) contains plenty of blue. Moving to 3500 would bump blue, green and yellow. I'm still working on getting a quote for the parts so things are still fluid at this point. If I added 3500K 90 in, which would you subtract from the test?

Well, robin already has a practical test going of the 3500K 90CRI. Let's actually see here...yeah they are very, very close. Not as much added between 500-599nm as you'd think eyeballing it. Either way, 14% is not too much blue. The sun is like 38/36/26 Red/Green/Blue, give or take. Wish I had some CXB data I could trust, to put it in perspective. I straight up don't trust the 3590 3000K 80 vs 90 CRI chart @alesh posted. That's obviously not 3000K If it's 3500K that Cree accidentally showed, that's a lot more blue than Citizen. Would make sense, Cree is definitely bluer across the board, Bridgelux the opposite, Citizen somewhere in the middle. You can't really tell that by eyeballing though, which is why I like breaking things up into bands.

Here's some more Mickey Mouse charts:

 

[ttystikk]

What kind of tests? On paper, 3500K 90CRI looks like the bees knees to me. I'm starting to finally get set up here, but I may switch from 4000K 1818 80CRI to 3500K 1812 90CRI just because I like the relative amounts of B/G/R/FR. It's very balanced.

Or I might add 660nm to 4000K. But I think the 3500K should be good for anything I want to chuck under it. Oof.

I'm running the 3500K and I just couldn't be happier! Hands down the best indoor horticultural lighting I've ever used, and I've run a list.

From what I'm seeing in quite a few head to head tests out there is that the plants themselves aren't showing huge differences in response between the different color temperatures. So maybe it isn't as critical a decision?

Nice. You know I have an appreciation for the technical side of things. It's not as cut and dry as it used to be, and that's a good thing.

I'm planning to run some tests, both measurements and real world. I'l like to restrict the test sample to 5 types. Any comments on the selection or substitutes?

3000K 70, 80, 90 CRI
2700K 90 CRI
3500K 80 CRI

I have the same thoughts about adding monos to the fixture in an effort to fine tune spectrum. It would be interesting to run those head to head vs similar fixtures without them.

 

[Rahz]

Well, robin already has a practical test going of the 3500K 90CRI. Let's actually see here...yeah they are very, very close. Not as much added between 500-599nm as you'd think eyeballing it. Either way, 14% is not too much blue. The sun is like 38/36/26 Red/Green/Blue, give or take. Wish I had some CXB data I could trust, to put it in perspective. I straight up don't trust the 3590 3000K 80 vs 90 CRI chart @alesh posted. That's obviously not 3000K If it's 3500K that Cree accidentally showed, that's a lot more blue than Citizen. Would make sense, Cree is definitely bluer across the board, Bridgelux the opposite, Citizen somewhere in the middle. You can't really tell that by eyeballing though, which is why I like breaking things up into bands.

Here's some more Mickey Mouse charts:
View attachment 3736400
View attachment 3736397

View attachment 3736398

Regarding Vero, Gen 6 was an improvement over Gen 5, and Gen 7 is looking better than Gen 6. Keeping that in mind, I did my 3000 -vs- 3500 runs with Gen 5 and had no issues with veg using either selection. I agree 14% isn't too much blue, but maybe 12.5% isn't too little. I feel like I would be looking for very slight variations in morphology if I went with both. I really want to keep the 2700/90 in the mix and am curious how the 3000/70 will perform under the meter, so maybe I'll ditch the 3500/80 and use the 3500/90 for the higher K sample.

 

[ttystikk]

Regarding Vero, Gen 6 was an improvement over Gen 5, and Gen 7 is looking better than Gen 6. Keeping that in mind, I did my 3000 -vs- 3500 runs with Gen 5 and had no issues with veg using either selection. I agree 14% isn't too much blue, but maybe 12.5% isn't too little. I feel like I would be looking for very slight variations in morphology if I went with both. I really want to keep the 2700/90 in the mix and am curious how the 3000/70 will perform under the meter, so maybe I'll ditch the 3500/80 and use the 3500/90 for the higher K sample.

Please don't ditch the 3500k. Too many of us use it.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

Please don't ditch the 3500k. Too many of us use it.

Agreed, it's the comfort zone, even if Citizen's 4000K is closer to Cree's 3500K than anything else.

 

[Rahz]

These will all be CLU058-1825C4 so not exact representations of the CXB spectrum most people have. You would rather see 3500K 80 CRI in the test rather than 3500 90?

 

[ttystikk]

These will all be CLU058-1825C4 so not exact representations of the CXB spectrum most people have. You would rather see 3500K 80 CRI in the test rather than 3500 90?

Oh! Nevermind, carry on!

Agreed, it's the comfort zone, even if Citizen's 4000K is closer to Cree's 3500K than anything else.

I do happen to like the light from chips right around 3500-4000 because it's similar to sunlight and easy to work in. The plants respond well to every light I've operated in that color temp range. Therefore, they'd likely be the range I'd go for if I were to use these chips in another build.

 

[JorgeGonzales]

These will all be CLU058-1825C4 so not exact representations of the CXB spectrum most people have. You would rather see 3500K 80 CRI in the test rather than 3500 90?

I think so, since it's the de facto standard around here. Most people are going to reach for 3500K 80CRI.

 

[alesh]

I straight up don't trust the 3590 3000K 80 vs 90 CRI chart @alesh posted. That's obviously not 3000K ]

Huh? It's what Cree sells as 3000K. It's 3000K+ actually.

 

[tags420]

You guys do really realize that HPS is the number 1 light source used in horticulture(moguls in fact, DE's are still on the rise when it comes to sales and implementation)??? And that it is also one of the most(if not the most...but floro's might be) well documented and successful lights out there? Something that LED's in general are all lacking....real results. Yes, there are a few results out there. Some well documented, some not at all, but regardless...there are very few. And as of today are out of date.

This should make it easier for the people who have never grown under LED(you know who you are) to maybe contribute if they could ever sack up. And there is also no reason why an LED guy can't get an hps for a side by side. If you're a real grower(even if all led's currently)...you probably have a hps or 2 sitting around.
If someone really wanted to be a boss you would throw a clone of the same outside too. But lets try for just an new hps showdown.

I don't think anyone has a question of will the 90cri grow...or will the 80cri grow(maybe the guy who hasn't ever used led's...just beats off to them). The question is which is the best replacement for HPS with the least input(wattage), and ideally lowest cost too. Until someone can show(not parrot someone else) that...it doesn't matter in the real world of horticulture. I'm sure growing in closets is fun and that led's can be a huge help. But that is not what supplies society. And to have a real impact(savings, carbon footprints, profitability)...led's need to help the big guys, then the little by association. If they help the big...they can help the little. But 98% of the time is not the otherway around.
If anyone is says "why waste the time with hps...I know led is better". Then you better have a full facility with led's booming and strutting their stuff like champs.
All I want is something to actually SEE, not read or type. The bigger, the better.

 

[Tactical Farmer]

Seriously Tags,,, OMG.. Good freaking night.

 

[Malocan]

Something that LED's in general are all lacking....real results. Yes, there are a few results out there. Some well documented, some not at all, but regardless...there are very few. And as of today are out of date.

hm... i dont know if you ever checked the internet for led grow reports? but there a so many grow reports with led out there...
and a lot of them are "good" documented. I dont know why you say something like that? Only beacuse HPS has some more well documented grows? No wonder, much older tech which is since long time available on market.

 

[ttystikk]

You guys do really realize that HPS is the number 1 light source used in horticulture(moguls in fact, DE's are still on the rise when it comes to sales and implementation)??? And that it is also one of the most(if not the most...but floro's might be) well documented and successful lights out there? Something that LED's in general are all lacking....real results. Yes, there are a few results out there. Some well documented, some not at all, but regardless...there are very few. And as of today are out of date.

This should make it easier for the people who have never grown under LED(you know who you are) to maybe contribute if they could ever sack up. And there is also no reason why an LED guy can't get an hps for a side by side. If you're a real grower(even if all led's currently)...you probably have a hps or 2 sitting around.
If someone really wanted to be a boss you would throw a clone of the same outside too. But lets try for just an new hps showdown.

I don't think anyone has a question of will the 90cri grow...or will the 80cri grow(maybe the guy who hasn't ever used led's...just beats off to them). The question is which is the best replacement for HPS with the least input(wattage), and ideally lowest cost too. Until someone can show(not parrot someone else) that...it doesn't matter in the real world of horticulture. I'm sure growing in closets is fun and that led's can be a huge help. But that is not what supplies society. And to have a real impact(savings, carbon footprints, profitability)...led's need to help the big guys, then the little by association. If they help the big...they can help the little. But 98% of the time is not the otherway around.
If anyone is says "why waste the time with hps...I know led is better". Then you better have a full facility with led's booming and strutting their stuff like champs.
All I want is something to actually SEE, not read or type. The bigger, the better.

I have it on very good authority that even Gavita are looking into COB LED.

HID lighting is being outlawed even as we speak; no waiting, it's already happening.

You're whining about high up front cost and your crops are worth HOW MUCH?!

Forget the crop improvements for a moment- COB LED pays for itself in electrical savings alone, nevermind lamp changes and power savings from HVAC.

You're the one behind the times, mate. Time for you to bone up.

 

[PurpleBuz]

LOL tty your funny! looks like you failed reading comprehension just like airhead.

tags never said HPS is better. Simply said hps and fluoros have the most real replicated results and studies in the world of horticultural lighting.

 

[robincnn]

http://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/may/phosphor-development-addresses-lower-efficacy-of-warm-white-leds

LED makers have addressed the CCT and CRI challenges to some extent by mixing the YAG phosphor with another phosphor that adds red wavelengths, extending CCT to warmer zones and improving CRI.

The major drawback of adding the “red” phosphor is a reduction in LED efficacy.

Consequently, phosphor manufacturers are stepping up to the challenge to produce new materials that promise to form commercial phosphors with higher conversion efficiency while supporting a wide CCT range and good CRI. Among the most promising candidates are nitride and oxynitride materials that replace the electroluminescent properties of cerium with another rare element, the metal Europium (Eu).

Work on a new range of phosphors, based on nitrides and oxynitrides doped with Europium, promises to yield new materials offering good CCT and CRI, but with quantum efficiencies on par (or better) with the pure YAG phosphor used in contemporary, highly efficient cool-white LEDs.

High CRI can be efficient too. I tried to ask citizen what Phosporus they use in high CRI but they do not disclose that info.
Citizen did give digitalized spectrum and the LER QER were same as what was calculated by @JorgeGonzales

90 cri 3500k looks like 4000k 80 cri + 660 monos
Would be easy to just use efficient 90 cri instead of adding monos

@NapalmD started a journal with CRI 90 3500K
Waiting on @nevergoodenuf results
There was a customer who was interested in testing 1825 3500K 80 vs 90 cri in 2x4 tent. He may document it at RIU

 

[JJFOURTWENTY]

Hopefully I'll find my camera soon to show mine as well: Citizen clu058 3500k 90cri alongside a51 w90 4000k Vero29 in a 2x2 tent. I've grown with 250, 300, and 400 watt HID, T8 fluoros, large 5 and 8u cfls, T5 ho... even those worthless corn cob leds. I think I'll be able to offer a good assessment for the closet grower on cob results.

What I'm looking for is bud density. That's how I gauge success of failure in a very small micro grow (sub 600w light imo). Light penetration is a factor too, though we all know that can be circumvented with a scrog trellis.
Density vs. airiness is what it all comes down to for me personally. I realize I'm not going to get rock hard nugs that twin 600s or a 1000w bulb can provide, but a much lower electricity bill easily offsets that I feel.