Ruwtz Maneuver Vol 1

[Wisher2]

see the only problem I have with that chart is that it was created studying leafy greens

I grow alot of Afghan Landrace
where my seeds came from it is hot and dry and elevation is high
Kunar Province Afghanistan
so that chart does me no good
but this one does

peak heat 80 peak RH 44%

VPD???????
probably not
just my experience

 

[Wisher2]

keeping the rootzone at the optimal moisture level for the enviroment my vegging plants look like this

flowering plants end like this

 

[Wisher2]

Dehu has been set to 70% and I will be recording temps & humidity throughout the day for the room and the canopy, and as best I can for leaf temps although I know that is difficult.

This is up from 55% which may or may not have been causing some VPD effects / looking like tox or def.

As I understand it people aim for a VPD of between 8.0 and 10.0 and I have several charts to reference the sweet spot. I am aiming for 75F at 65-70% humidity as my room seems able to manage this temp very well even on very hot days outside.

I still don't know how to establish a decent 10 degree drop for night times since these cobs kick out hardly any heat that would otherwise contribute to a decrease at lights off. I did trial the AC timer to turn off with the lights but since this room is 90% sealed this didn't really do much: temps just held in the mid to high 70's. I'd rather condition the air and keep that number stable, so AC continues to run 24/7.

RO filter is running and I should have a full res in a day or so, so we will see where the girls are at before going to flood. I do not want to repeat the overwatering and most of the blocks remain heavy from this weeks' watering. I'm going to aim for 650ppm. Hopefully my temp/humidity combo hits the right VPD to encourage the girls to feed as they should be. All are over a month old now so we really ought to be rocking.

@Wisher2 Since pH is so stable in RO, do you then fully articulate the res pH in order to facilitate the whole range of uptake? eg. starting at 5.5 and going to 5.6 for the next water and so on up to 6.0?

Also, do you guys pH before nutes then again after? In soil with tap I found this used much less pH down and at least appeared to hold a little better, but not sure if this will apply to hydro/RO. I have heard pH'ing plain RO doesn't work because there is nothing in it to buffer. Thoughts?

as for the ph of the res
I set it between 5.5-6.0....where ever it falls
and let it ride
and only drop it back down when it reaches over 6.3.....back to between 5.5-6.0
depending how much or little the plants consume and create waste will be how fast your ph will swing

 

[ruwtz]

as for the ph of the res
I set it between 5.5-6.0....where ever it falls
and let it ride
and only drop it back down when it reaches over 6.3.....back to between 5.5-6.0
depending how much or little the plants consume and create waste will be how fast your ph will swing

I've left the Bluelab probes in the tank and I will be checking anecdotally per day to see if its swinging and/or requires fixing before a feed.

 

[Wisher2]

I've left the Bluelab probes in the tank and I will be checking anecdotally per day to see if its swinging and/or requires fixing before a feed.

usually you should only need to mess with ph when you top off or change out
I am not sure how you have it.....but it is also best to have a seperate Res just for RO....then when you need to top off the feed res....you drop a mini pump in the ro and transfer to the feed....check the ppm and top off to reach your desired ec...wait 30min....check ph and adjust accordingly

I dont mean to sound like a douche but some of these things people overlook when new to say hydroponics....or a bad ass room like yours....especially little things that can be overlooked or never thought of....

 

[ruwtz]

usually you should only need to mess with ph when you top off or change out
I am not sure how you have it.....but it is also best to have a seperate Res just for RO....then when you need to top off the feed res....you drop a mini pump in the ro and transfer to the feed....check the ppm and top off to reach your desired ec...wait 30min....check ph and adjust accordingly

I dont mean to sound like a douche but some of these things people overlook when new to say hydroponics....or a bad ass room like yours....especially little things that can be overlooked or never thought of....

You don't sound anything but helpful and I appreciate your input, some of which is aiding this new garden along nicely so cheers!

Basically I built a shed and then put some things in it that resemble a grow room and now i'm finding out what works and what doesn't and what I thought I knew and what I really ought to know. Its a great adventure every day and i'm stoked to have you guys around for the ride.

 

[ttystikk]

Ok, makes sense and I have been using that chart. The axes make easy sense if you want to stay in the green: ie. choose a temp and choose its correlating RH, however the corresponding values don't make sense with the way i'm calculating (my workings are above). It seems the more I improve the relationship between temp and RH (going by this chart), the more my VPD measurement goes way off, and perhaps @Wisher2 is explaining the same issue.

@ttystikk how are you in the green if you're mid 70's temps and in the 50's for humidity? Going by the chart alone, 50's humidity puts you in low to mid 60's for temp, which can't be right. Am I reading this wrong? Are their other factors i'm just not considering?

I'm not going to get bogged down in numbers and this is merely a curiosity to me, but it is bothering my brainbox, and i'd like to work towards fully realizing this if i'm going to be a competent grower like you lot.

I run my veg more dry. I follow VPD more closely in bloom.

 

[ruwtz]

I've been tweaking the AC and dehumidifier all day since before lights on and interval recording the results from the room, from the canopy and from two areas of foliage as best I can without a laser .

Temps and humidity have been within these ranges all day:

- - Room: 73-75F, 55-60%RH
- - Canopy: 74-76F, 60-68%RH
- - Leaves: [1] 74F, 69-71%RH and [2] 74-76F, 63-67%RH

Going by those humidity readings at the leaf I may just nudge it down a little more, but i'd like to score a balance for all four strains if poss.

Strains are Larry OG (ind dom), Black Jack (50/50 hybrid), 24K Gold (60% ind dom) and Gorilla Glue #4 (sat).

Due to early issues with Larry I'll probably just grow out the runners for clones. GG was bagseed so jury is out if they're any good at all (hermies expected). That leaves two hybrids in the BlackJack and 24K to flower this run so hopefully their traits are reasonably closely matched. Both are a long flower (9-10 weeks).

 

[Wisher2]

remember Humidity will be higher at the leaf or canopy itself do to the fact that the plant is transpiring

Indy like dry conditions
Saties like a more humid enviroment

rule of thumb is
72-80f
RH 55-65%
for both veg and flower
very even conditions for all varities
you may be able to find cultivars that do extremely well in certain conditions
but
IMO
I would just concentrate on watering cycles and making sure temp and RH dont fluctuate wildly
stay within the values above and you will be perfectly fine.....

 

[weed-whacker]

hey @ruwtz !

thanks for sharing your adventure with us, i just got over hear after reading the build thread, cool stuff.


Everyone seems to be a master grower in this thread giving u advise so ill give you some too, take it with a a grain of salt as I have only had around 3 Mj grows, but I've worked in horticulture and on an aquaponic chilli farm for some years so hopefully i know a lil bit about growing plants in controlled environments?


1 RO water=biggest scam ever! you got enough other stuff to work on here before needing to throw money at this, instead get your tap water into that drum and bubble it for 2 days, this will remove chlorine, chloramine and cloradioxide or whatever type of chlorine your city uses to kill bacteria, you will be left with the salts only, those salts are usually calcium and magnesium which we like to add anyway, and sure you will still be getting 10ppm of like metals but hey.
alas if you are not doing any organics stuff i.e. beanies and whatever then a bit of chlorine is just what you want to help with killing off any pythium ect a lot of ppl use tap water in their cloners for this reason.... as long as its safe for humans to drink I'm sure the plants will not complain


2 ditch that rock wool, it is the shittiest medium and when you start to treat it like hydro(as you have over watering and stuff) nothing grows in it. switch to coco and change nothing else because your set up and grow style seems to suit this medium.


also your humidity is highly irrelevant at this stage, the real cause of your high humidity problems is those big wet sponges all over the grow room, the rock wool

 

[Wisher2]

hey @ruwtz !

thanks for sharing your adventure with us, i just got over hear after reading the build thread, cool stuff.


Everyone seems to be a master grower in this thread giving u advise so ill give you some too, take it with a a grain of salt as I have only had around 3 Mj grows, but I've worked in horticulture and on an aquaponic chilli farm for some years so hopefully i know a lil bit about growing plants in controlled environments?


1 RO water=biggest scam ever! you got enough other stuff to work on here before needing to throw money at this, instead get your tap water into that drum and bubble it for 2 days, this will remove chlorine, chloramine and cloradioxide or whatever type of chlorine your city uses to kill bacteria, you will be left with the salts only, those salts are usually calcium and magnesium which we like to add anyway, and sure you will still be getting 10ppm of like metals but hey.
alas if you are not doing any organics stuff i.e. beanies and whatever then a bit of chlorine is just what you want to help with killing off any pythium ect a lot of ppl use tap water in their cloners for this reason.... as long as its safe for humans to drink I'm sure the plants will not complain


2 ditch that rock wool, it is the shittiest medium and when you start to treat it like hydro(as you have over watering and stuff) nothing grows in it. switch to coco and change nothing else because your set up and grow style seems to suit this medium.


also your humidity is highly irrelevant at this stage, the real cause of your high humidity problems is those big wet sponges all over the grow room, the rock wool

just to let you know
you cant bubble off chloramine
and 10ppm isnt all you are left with
that would work for aquaponics as the algae and fish filter the water before it goes to the plants
my local water leaves me with over 500ppm sulfate
RO is not a scam as all the cut flower hydroponic industry in my area use RO machines

I do agree coco is a much better medium as I have had great success and many hydroponic grow facilities in the Aggie world use coco slabs in substitue for RW

again Auquaponics and hydroponics vary wildly in terms of what you may or may not need.....as I am sure in the aquaponic pepper farm you werent feeding the plants the fish were.....in a sterile controled enviroment you always start at zero and build up

 

[ruwtz]

hey @ruwtz !

thanks for sharing your adventure with us, i just got over hear after reading the build thread, cool stuff.


Everyone seems to be a master grower in this thread giving u advise so ill give you some too, take it with a a grain of salt as I have only had around 3 Mj grows, but I've worked in horticulture and on an aquaponic chilli farm for some years so hopefully i know a lil bit about growing plants in controlled environments?


1 RO water=biggest scam ever! you got enough other stuff to work on here before needing to throw money at this, instead get your tap water into that drum and bubble it for 2 days, this will remove chlorine, chloramine and cloradioxide or whatever type of chlorine your city uses to kill bacteria, you will be left with the salts only, those salts are usually calcium and magnesium which we like to add anyway, and sure you will still be getting 10ppm of like metals but hey.
alas if you are not doing any organics stuff i.e. beanies and whatever then a bit of chlorine is just what you want to help with killing off any pythium ect a lot of ppl use tap water in their cloners for this reason.... as long as its safe for humans to drink I'm sure the plants will not complain


2 ditch that rock wool, it is the shittiest medium and when you start to treat it like hydro(as you have over watering and stuff) nothing grows in it. switch to coco and change nothing else because your set up and grow style seems to suit this medium.


also your humidity is highly irrelevant at this stage, the real cause of your high humidity problems is those big wet sponges all over the grow room, the rock wool

Good advice to take this with a pinch of salt. Cos that's what I'll do here since it's nearly all conjecture and what I will call "video fact". Thanks anyway & peace

 

[ruwtz]

So coming up to 24hrs after flooding with 5.7/710ppm @74F and all the girls look sad: droopy in the leaf, some curling and just totally the opposite of perky. All plants have well established roots appearing from the base so the decision was made that they could handle a proper feed and watering.

Looks like classic overwatering AGAIN, from one 15 min flood. I'm literally about to throw myself in the river i'm so frustrated...

New growth hasn't picked up and remains pale green and spindly, with some of it tight and rigid between veins as it curls under.

I have done some very minor pruning to remove damaged leaves and to thin out the bottom third, especially on the Blackjacks (left of first pic) as they are squatted with very tight noding and short basal stem.

Room at 74F, 60% humidity although I am reducing this to 55% currently to encourage the girls to drink.

I'm waiting on a CO2 ppm meter but in the meantime I have a CO2 tank on slow release every hour to add a little.

Fans have been turned to face the wall and provide indirect fluttering: I will be moving them further up the wall today to avoid any wind burn.



They're not quite as pale as this pic shows, just a little overexposing, but i'm still concerned about new growth slowing.





Seems the girls were doing much better when I was simply hand watering. @Wisher2 this was your idea so you have some esssplainin' to do! Just kidding, but seriously i'm like

 

[ttystikk]

DON'T FLOOD ROCKWOOL.

The stuff is designed to be top fed drain to waste only.

Shit is nasty and I'd recommend you quit using it altogether. You can't recycle it, and you do NOT want to handle it dry without eye, hand and respiratory protection. Think of it as blocks of asbestos.

Consider this, instead; Tupur Royal Gold. It's better than coco because it strains better and has biochar, which buffers EC and pH effectively.

 

[Wisher2]

DON'T FLOOD ROCKWOOL.

The stuff is designed to be top fed drain to waste only.

Shit is nasty and I'd recommend you quit using it altogether. You can't recycle it, and you do NOT want to handle it dry without eye, hand and respiratory protection. Think of it as blocks of asbestos.

Consider this, instead; Tupur Royal Gold. It's better than coco because it strains better and has biochar, which buffers EC and pH effectively.

I had suggested that in the very beginning
but he didnt want to scrap everything

@ruwtz
there has to be a factor we are missing
did you rinse the hydroton extremely well
even though You shouldnt flood the rockwool.....you should be able to
I have seen it done many times with great success
there has to be some factor that we who are not at your grow shack dont know about

 

[ruwtz]

I had suggested that in the very beginning
but he didnt want to scrap everything

@ruwtz
there has to be a factor we are missing
did you rinse the hydroton extremely well
even though You shouldnt flood the rockwool.....you should be able to
I have seen it done many times with great success
there has to be some factor that we who are not at your grow shack dont know about

I'm invested in these blocks for this grow only - I have too much on the table to throw them out, even if i'm only growing for cuttings at this point. But it has been nothing but hard work and I am already looking at an alternative for future cycles. It shouldn't be this challenging.

With my plan for flower set for coco in smart pots its highly likely I will go with this for veg. As a matter of fact, that was the plan all along until I was sold these blocks by my hydro store. The cleanliness really appealed to me at that time. Now I just want to get my hands dirty.

All that being said I do not want to blame the medium: plenty of people grow successfully in E&F with rockwool. I have to be able to get this setup at least to adequate before moving on.

Yes, everything was rinsed thoroughly several times, and also soaked before being pH rinsed again before the plugs were moved over.

I really am stumped. I am putting everything into this and I could be losing my mind at this point.

Only thing I haven't thought of... could it be an Indian burial ground curse??

 

[Wisher2]

you know I have been racking my brain about this

a few years ago a buddy gave me a cut of his
it looked just like some of your really bad plants
it was in rockwool
it looked like total trash

it stuck it in some ocean forest soil and watered it a few times
I finally threw it in the trash because it just stayed shitty lookin

I figured it had some systemic vivus or some shit
but now I am second guessing myself

most people I know that use RW just use the starter plug then go strait to hydroton in DWC
I know none of this helps your situation....

some of your plants look good.....but some look REALLY BAD!!!!
I just dont get it

the flooding shouldnt effect the plant that way....as those blocks are supposed to have good oxygen retention
15 min is standard flood time.....maybe next time flood it until the water hits the overflow and then shut it off.....just give it a super tiny bit of water

 

[ruwtz]

you know I have been racking my brain about this

a few years ago a buddy gave me a cut of his
it looked just like your plants
it was in rockwool
it looked like total trash

it stuck it in some ocean forest soil and watered it a few times
I finally threw it in the trash because it just stayed shitty lookin

I figured it had some systemic vivus or some shit
but now I am second guessing myself

most people I know that use RW just use the starter plug then go strai to hydroton in DWC
I know none of this helps your situation....

All I can think is perhaps a pathogen was borne in the previous res that was overwhelming those added bennies etc (including Recharge which contains molasses, i.e. Food even for bad guys), and this was passed to the plants and stunting or even killing roots. Maybe it's still a delicate situation down there in the root zone.

They bounced back quickly with a flush and hand watering straight nutes, so I'm just gonna stick with that as per KISS.

I should probably start thinking about cloning now so I've not wasted $500 on seeds. Not interested in moving weak plants to flower.

 

[ruwtz]

Or maybe the flood was just too long? I was just reading that some like to run the table until it hits the drain then add a minute before stopping and that's your run time.

Off the top of my head is say that'd be 4 or so minutes for me. Not 15.

This way the roots are encouraged to uptake from that submerged inch, whereas a longer flood saturates the block through heavy wicking. These blocks are called quick drain but they hold around 3/4gallon each and are still heavy 24hrs later despite favorable room conditions and root development.

 

[Wisher2]

that sounds like a good plan