Keep em green?

[whitebb2727]

Green to the end. My outdoor guerilla plants will shed some leaves at the bottom. That is due to light not reaching them.

Main thing is keep them healthy.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

WOW! F10's? Aren't you seeing lack of vigor starting around F5's?

I would guess that any "pheno" you may find in S1's (Fem's) are actually seeds from different mothers expressing different genetic "traits" = "pheno's".....I mean, you can't expect seed makers to offer thousands of beans from the same mother! Part of why I like breeders who do ultra small batch's from single mothers...They maybe more expensive then from the "big boys" But in S1's you'll get true consistency! You need that to hold true line breeding from lines with no males (clone only lines),,right?

They also mostly sell regulars. That limited amount of sale packs, still makes for far better uniformity in each pheno you find.

I've found IBL's can be very good for producing off the hook potency.....just have to hit that holy grail plant and it's off to the race's!

Well I was in agreement up until this comment.

The S-1 seeds can have the same variance as an F-1. I plant all mine and the plants always are varied phenos. Even new phenos I have not seen from an F-1 seed.

And IBL seeds grow consistent plants. That is the purpose of back crossing but they tend to lose something special. Like Sannie's Herijuana. So overbred it is easy to grow. It's potent. But potent sleepy and boring. Fuzzy buzz and same plant almost every time.

I have original Woodhorse seeds genetics in the Heri in my seeds. It grows crazy varied plants that are all very interesting and trippy to smoke. And show weird Thai traits that have been bred out of the IBL.

And for my opinion on this. I like the varied phenos. I clone and reveg the plants I want to keep. Or I hold clones til the new ones flower.

IBL type genetics are only that breeders version of the plant. I want to see what may be hidden in the genetics and hopefully bring out its potential.

Interesting thread this is becoming.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Once it's a cutting, and down line generations. No, the basic quality and taste etc. - never change....It's just the plant, shifting in it's available genetics. To express the plants structure, owning to the environment it's being grown in. The best growing environment, is part of dialing in for the best quality "potential" from the plant. It's limited BY the genetic "potential".

I have little change in seasonal environmental conditions in my buildings. Minor RH and I control night temps to be the same all year, as I can..... One just cost's more to cool as I hook up a temp control to outside air to be brought in for cooling over AC. That makes for about a 5% drop in ambient RH....The only real thing that changes.

They only "shift" to environmental conditions in the genetic expression of the plants genes included from the cross. They have to be a combination or a hybrid plant.....I have not experienced any loss of quality from environmental "shift" - ever!

This is a topic I will have to delve back into the textbooks for I think. But I will say I think what you are seeing is the plants structure. Changed to the environment only. I don't think you can breed changes you are suggesting into he genetic code in our lifetime.

But plants look and grow differently even with small environmental differences. I could cut humidity and nitrogen and have smaller fan leaves on the next clone of he same plant for example. But it will grow the original way with the original conditions.

No?

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

You can alter the size of your fan leaves with varying fertilizer habits . Custom mixed and loose basal salts are available online. I saw no advantage other than photogenic value.
View attachment 3879885

Nice pic. I love photographing flowers and guitars. I will remember to get my strat in a pic soon.

And yes. Nutrients and environment can alter the structure and pattern of the plants. But I challenge above the concept of genetic manipulation doing it from a few pollinations.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Green to the end. My outdoor guerilla plants will shed some leaves at the bottom. That is due to light not reaching them.

Main thing is keep them healthy.
View attachment 3879965 View attachment 3879966 View attachment 3879967 View attachment 3879969

Beautiful flowers whitebb!

 

[chemphlegm]

This is a topic I will have to delve back into the textbooks for I think. But I will say I think what you are seeing is the plants structure. Changed to the environment only. I don't think you can breed changes you are suggesting into he genetic code in our lifetime.

But plants look and grow differently even with small environmental differences. I could cut humidity and nitrogen and have smaller fan leaves on the next clone of he same plant for example. But it will grow the original way with the original conditions.

No?

well, with a carefully placed or even accidentally exposed, viral/bacterial infection can alter the genetics for every downline resulting. this is precisely whats done to genetically modify our agricultural plants currently. I'm thinking when a grower sees some degradation/"drift" that this is a plausible explanation. Not really a drift but an infection/parasite/bacterial hijacking I think.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

well, with a carefully placed or even accidentally exposed, viral/bacterial infection can alter the genetics for every downline resulting. this is precisely whats done to genetically modify our agricultural plants currently. I'm thinking when a grower sees some degradation/"drift" that this is a plausible explanation. Not really a drift but an infection/parasite/bacterial hijacking I think.

Had not considered infection. Interesting...

 

[whitebb2727]

Beautiful flowers whitebb!

Thank you.

 

[Flowki]

well, with a carefully placed or even accidentally exposed, viral/bacterial infection can alter the genetics for every downline resulting. this is precisely whats done to genetically modify our agricultural plants currently. I'm thinking when a grower sees some degradation/"drift" that this is a plausible explanation. Not really a drift but an infection/parasite/bacterial hijacking I think.

Would you think it's less risky to perpetually take a few cuttings from each previous cuttings as you have more plants to play with in case one has a infection or some other reason of drift?. If a single mother was kept to provide such cuttings and did develop some kind of infection you would stand to lose that strain? assuming such an infection/drfit can't be over come.

What are the meanings of S-1, F-1, IBL?. Almost scared to ask as it's probably the path to a bottomless pit of new interest.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Would you think it's less risky to perpetually take a few cuttings from each previous cuttings as you have more plants to play with in case one has a infection or some other reason of drift?. If a single mother was kept to provide such cuttings and did develop some kind of infection you would stand to lose that strain? assuming such an infection/drfit can't be over come.

What are the meanings of S-1, F-1, IBL?. Almost scared to ask as it's probably the path to a bottomless pit of new interest.

S-1 is a self made seed from a female plant that self pollinated.

F-1 is a first generation cross

IBL. in bred line. They are back crossed continually for genetic stability.

And I think the risk of infection comes from sanitation and gardening practices. I clone clones to reduce plant count. They seem identical to me in appearance (mostly) and effect and everything else. Any changes are usually environmental to the room.

 

[chemphlegm]

infections are beautiful sometimes. many of our agricultural varieties have undergone countless dna hijackings throughout time.
i would be concerned with using clean tools, in a clean are to do your cloning. Not a sterile clean room(unless you got one) but just common sense clean stuff. alcohol, scalpel, cutting board...

 

[Flowki]

S-1 is a self made seed from a female plant that self pollinated.

F-1 is a first generation cross

IBL. in bred line. They are back crossed continually for genetic stability.

And I think the risk of infection comes from sanitation and gardening practices. I clone clones to reduce plant count. They seem identical to me in appearance (mostly) and effect and everything else. Any changes are usually environmental to the room.

Ahh ok thnx.

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

infections are beautiful sometimes. many of our agricultural varieties have undergone countless dna hijackings throughout time.
i would be concerned with using clean tools, in a clean are to do your cloning. Not a sterile clean room(unless you got one) but just common sense clean stuff. alcohol, scalpel, cutting board...

I have been cleaning everything that goes in and out of my rooms and between rooms with isopropyl alcohol. Just a quick spray or wipe off. And I have had no infections or cannabis pests for 3 years. I also never wear anything that has been outside and wash and change first if I have.

A grower on another site called me a "plant o condriac." Lol.

I do get springtails in amended potting soil in winter but they go back outside in spring and are harmless if kept under control. And it's my fault for not clearing the leaves away from the house fast enough.

 

[Dr. Who]

This is a topic I will have to delve back into the textbooks for I think. But I will say I think what you are seeing is the plants structure. Changed to the environment only. I don't think you can breed changes you are suggesting into he genetic code in our lifetime.

But plants look and grow differently even with small environmental differences. I could cut humidity and nitrogen and have smaller fan leaves on the next clone of he same plant for example. But it will grow the original way with the original conditions.

No?

Umm, that's the only point I was making!

 

[Dr. Who]

Well I was in agreement up until this comment.

The S-1 seeds can have the same variance as an F-1. I plant all mine and the plants always are varied phenos. Even new phenos I have not seen from an F-1 seed.

And IBL seeds grow consistent plants. That is the purpose of back crossing but they tend to lose something special. Like Sannie's Herijuana. So overbred it is easy to grow. It's potent. But potent sleepy and boring. Fuzzy buzz and same plant almost every time.

I have original Woodhorse seeds genetics in the Heri in my seeds. It grows crazy varied plants that are all very interesting and trippy to smoke. And show weird Thai traits that have been bred out of the IBL.

And for my opinion on this. I like the varied phenos. I clone and reveg the plants I want to keep. Or I hold clones til the new ones flower.

IBL type genetics are only that breeders version of the plant. I want to see what may be hidden in the genetics and hopefully bring out its potential.

Interesting thread this is becoming.

Total disagreement on that one! S1's are a genetic mirror of the mother! I have in my experience, never found a 'true" phenotypical difference in S1 offspring from a single female plant selfing! (other then the odd male popping in - like from that Skywalker Auto test grow thing I did. It was fun but, they took up count space and strained my rotation being rebuilt).

Now if your getting S1's from seed dealers.....You are NO DOUBT getting beans from various females used in the project!
I can, and do, see phenotypical difference's there!

So we agree to disagree on that point then?

Once your going down line in IBL's over the "cube" level (and in an increasing bell curve rate) you do begin to find some throwing specific traits! They can be many different things. The deeper you go into the backing, the more "problematic recessive" traits begin to rear up! That's the problem with any inbreeding! Kinda basic training in genetic law!
Look at the Czars of Russia. Big in-breeders, Hemophilia was a big problem in that line of people - due to that inbreeding, and the story goes, that's one way that Hemophilia was introduced/increased in the general population!

Anyway, I have seen someone hit squarely the holy grail potency pheno in IBL work (for that strain).....Kind of a middle of the road strain....It jumped to testings of 23-24% in a strain that hit the wall at about 16-18%.....To actually find that trait in F xing work....you would change the line and it would be rare for the ones holding the original intended strain "ideal" to be found.

Hell Riot bumped into the super potent "clockwork orange" by accident in "normal" F breeding. It still only shows in about 1 in 200 plants or so! At his price for beans, and not to mention their storied difficulty in popping...Forget it! Yet, if you got $ and the patience. Along with a male (not sure he does reg's with that line). You could crush his market by IBL breeding to pull that pheno out, or at least increase the chances of that "krinkly leaf" pheno!

See what I mean about IBL breeding now?

I agree,, this is getting to be a nice thread! Stimulating!

 

[Dr. Who]

well, with a carefully placed or even accidentally exposed, viral/bacterial infection can alter the genetics for every downline resulting. this is precisely whats done to genetically modify our agricultural plants currently. I'm thinking when a grower sees some degradation/"drift" that this is a plausible explanation. Not really a drift but an infection/parasite/bacterial hijacking I think.

"Knocking wood" I have yet to experience a viral problem in my MJ growing! I isolate and grow out each new incoming strain. looking for those problems. If it ever shows - they will be burned instantly!

There is no "real" genetic "drift" in a plant but, for breeding! ANY "genetic shift" in a strain. Comes from inclusion of a different strain in pollination!

All sorts of papers on that out there Chemy!
A plant that you've cloned multiple times. That changes in any growth pattern. IS PURELY environmental shifting!
Filed that under "Things I learned in school"..

 

[chemphlegm]

never said I did it, or let it happen, or know of it in cannabis cultivation, only that this is precisely how gmo plants are made. Notice I said "not really a drift". My plants have been cloned from a clone countless times over the years with zero changes or issues. i use papers for rolling joints, but thanks for the tip

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Total disagreement on that one! S1's are a genetic mirror of the mother! I have in my experience, never found a 'true" phenotypical difference in S1 offspring from a single female plant selfing! (other then the odd male popping in - like from that Skywalker Auto test grow thing I did. It was fun but, they took up count space and strained my rotation being rebuilt).

Now if your getting S1's from seed dealers.....You are NO DOUBT getting beans from various females used in the project!
I can, and do, see phenotypical difference's there!

So we agree to disagree on that point then?

Once your going down line in IBL's over the "cube" level (and in an increasing bell curve rate) you do begin to find some throwing specific traits! They can be many different things. The deeper you go into the backing, the more "problematic recessive" traits begin to rear up! That's the problem with any inbreeding! Kinda basic training in genetic law!
Look at the Czars of Russia. Big in-breeders, Hemophilia was a big problem in that line of people - due to that inbreeding, and the story goes, that's one way that Hemophilia was introduced/increased in the general population!

Anyway, I have seen someone hit squarely the holy grail potency pheno in IBL work (for that strain).....Kind of a middle of the road strain....It jumped to testings of 23-24% in a strain that hit the wall at about 16-18%.....To actually find that trait in F xing work....you would change the line and it would be rare for the ones holding the original intended strain "ideal" to be found.

Hell Riot bumped into the super potent "clockwork orange" by accident in "normal" F breeding. It still only shows in about 1 in 200 plants or so! At his price for beans, and not to mention their storied difficulty in popping...Forget it! Yet, if you got $ and the patience. Along with a male (not sure he does reg's with that line). You could crush his market by IBL breeding to pull that pheno out, or at least increase the chances of that "krinkly leaf" pheno!

See what I mean about IBL breeding now?

I agree,, this is getting to be a nice thread! Stimulating!

I guess I have to disagree. I have my own s-1 seeds and all seeds have not grown the same plant as the mother. Nor did I expect they would.

And I don't have the PDF in my phone or the time to re read the chapter now but I am pretty sure that the genetic variance is explained in Clarks Marijuana Botany. For a source anyway.

I never once read what you suggest until I got to the rm3 site. (Not saying that is where you learned this.) I didn't even know it was a belief. A seed is not a clone.

As far as IBL breeding. I am only saying a limited opinion from smoking IBL weed. I have no experience with breeding. I understand your example and will have to learn further

 

[MichiganMedGrower]

Umm, that's the only point I was making!

I thought you were saying that genetic code changed in your growroom.

 

[Jeffro420]

I use a 3 part base nutrient. Usually around week 4 or 5 I start to lower my grow and add a little more bloom. Should I keep using the equal amounts of grow micro and Bloom till the end? Would that lead to greener leaves for a longer period?