Keep em green?

MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Kingrow1 said:
I like my bud leaves green, often if the surrounding fan leaves yellow or crisp up the bud leaf will shortly follow suit.

To my knowledge the calyx as a false leaf still conducts photosynthesis and there is a lot of bud leaf, surely without fan leaves some growth must be possible.

I think as long as your hitting a certain weight per cycle and bud is good then its not the biggest issue to have some yellowing and leaf drop.
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My yield and potency keep getting better as I lose less leaves during their cycle. The faster and better an unobstructed veg cycle to sexing happens the better the plant is too.

And yes. I mean I have found training in veg hurts my results. Even with good recovery time. I have been comparing trhese things all year.

I want to add again. Too green hurts flavor and smoothness and maybe even the high.

And yellowing hurts yield and flavor and potency but not smoothness so much. Which is why I think flushing became popular. To try to mitigate the over fertilized grow.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
My yield and potency keep getting better as I lose less leaves during their cycle. The faster and better an unobstructed veg cycle to sexing happens the better the plant is too.

And yes. I mean I have found training in veg hurts my results. Even with good recovery time. I have been comparing trhese things all year.

I want to add again. Too green hurts flavor and smoothness and maybe even the high.

And yellowing hurts yield and flavor and potency but not smoothness so much. Which is why I think flushing became popular. To try to mitigate the over fertilized grow.
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It all points to having healthy plants, certainly a healthier plant will stay greener longer.

Maximizing your veg will knock weeks off your cycle :-)
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
I do think there is a "too green" at the end. I like to see the natural fall colors if a plant seems to insist.

I want to add again. Too green hurts flavor and smoothness and maybe even the high.

And yellowing hurts yield and flavor and potency but not smoothness so much. Which is why I think flushing became popular. To try to mitigate the over fertilized grow.
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One must be prudent with one's N in mid-later bloom.

As far as any chance of cross pollination....Nope! To me it's that chaos theory thing...."Nature will find a way." I can't explain why it happens. But it does. There are a group of commercial breeders that feel the same way. I've spoken to several that have had the male S1 experience. All but one of us that had it, jumped on the male for breeding projects....Kinda like me saying that all S1's are exact mirrors of their mothers then eh?

But, here we are quoting science rules vs. personal experience's. Appears as though we each have feet on each side of the track on things....Interesting isn't it.
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
One must be prudent with one's N in mid-later bloom.

As far as any chance of cross pollination....Nope! To me it's that chaos theory thing...."Nature will find a way." I can't explain why it happens. But it does. There are a group of commercial breeders that feel the same way. I've spoken to several that have had the male S1 experience. All but one of us that had it, jumped on the male for breeding projects....Kinda like me saying that all S1's are exact mirrors of their mothers then eh?

But, here we are quoting science rules vs. personal experience's. Appears as though we each have feet on each side of the track on things....Interesting isn't it.
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Im sure in time this mystery will be unsolved, maybe some new genetics from it if were lucky...
 
MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
One must be prudent with one's N in mid-later bloom.

As far as any chance of cross pollination....Nope! To me it's that chaos theory thing...."Nature will find a way." I can't explain why it happens. But it does. There are a group of commercial breeders that feel the same way. I've spoken to several that have had the male S1 experience. All but one of us that had it, jumped on the male for breeding projects....Kinda like me saying that all S1's are exact mirrors of their mothers then eh?

But, here we are quoting science rules vs. personal experience's. Appears as though we each have feet on each side of the track on things....Interesting isn't it.
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Can you report on these breeders findings with the male subject as a parent?
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
Can you report on these breeders findings with the male subject as a parent?
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I found stronger definition in pheno's produced -faster. They tended to be more one side of the cross......I wish I had more to work with... A North of the boarder breeder I suggest quite a bit, did about the same with the 2 he found, (in different strains). The others I have either only read minor descriptions of or have read that they are "working" the male. I never did hear more on that one....I should ask I guess... Most of his goes out pre-order. Only a handful or so of packs make the web site.....
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
@MichiganMedGrower @Kingrow1

In conversation with the breeder of those Skywalker auto S1's (Mephisto) that popped the male and the twins. I got this reply from Mitch.

"Hi ---- that's odd, but I would say we probably find about 1 male every 3000 or more grown, so in the last couple of years I've come across two where they shouldn't have been.

Twins - is more common, some strains produce more than others, on the ones that do perhaps 1 every 200 seeds."

So I got off my ass and finally got an answer from another well known and mass marketing breeder. I asked if these # numbers were in line with what they see...

"Even though most of my gear is regular, as you know. Yeah, that's right along the same thing I see. But, you basically knew that didn't you? I mean, you use my STS mix still, right?" And got that male from some Giesel S1's , right?"

I figured I would ask the guys that do the big plant numbers. The guy I got the beans from and the guy I quote from his manifesto on S1's!

I didn't want to read paper after paper looking for the science, when I could ask those that actually see plant counts to give a male ratio could quote.

So then, I firmly reiterate my stand on S1's being No guarantee of 100% females!

Boom done!
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
@MichiganMedGrower @Kingrow1

In conversation with the breeder of those Skywalker auto S1's (Mephisto) that popped the male and the twins. I got this reply from Mitch.

"Hi ---- that's odd, but I would say we probably find about 1 male every 3000 or more grown, so in the last couple of years I've come across two where they shouldn't have been.

Twins - is more common, some strains produce more than others, on the ones that do perhaps 1 every 200 seeds."

So I got off my ass and finally got an answer from another well known and mass marketing breeder. I asked if these # numbers were in line with what they see...

"Even though most of my gear is regular, as you know. Yeah, that's right along the same thing I see. But, you basically knew that didn't you? I mean, you use my STS mix still, right?" And got that male from some Giesel S1's , right?"

I figured I would ask the guys that do the big plant numbers. The guy I got the beans from and the guy I quote from his manifesto on S1's!

I didn't want to read paper after paper looking for the science, when I could ask those that actually see plant counts to give a male ratio could quote.

So then, I firmly reiterate my stand on S1's being No guarantee of 100% females!

Boom done!
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It leaves me complex problems-

*Is it a breedable trait?
*What is the result of various crosses?
*Can a male turn female?
*Exactly what genetics?

....and many more once these have answers.

I need a point of reference but at this stage there are none but a low ratio such as 1 in 3000 approx. All the breeders i use out right deny this possibility but little is S1 gennerations.

Long term we will wait for more cases on RiU and for it to gather more substance. Ive maybe a couple hundred S1 plants off my own seed in all my grows plus loads more but they wernt seed id made myself. Even with that experience i cannot match the criteria to see one and havent yet.

Twins is more than common though, no debate there.
 
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Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
MichiganMedGrower said:
Ok @Dr. Who and @Kingrow1 I will send an email to Pete at Ch9 too. He knows all the classic old breeders and has been feminizing since I think 1998.

Dr. Who. Have we settled the different pheno question? Sort of?
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For the most part, I'm looking for the notes I kept on that....Kinda busy right now so it may be a day or so.

I'll give greenthumb a call too.....he does shit tons of S1's....
 
MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Dr. Who said:
For the most part, I'm looking for the notes I kept on that....Kinda busy right now so it may be a day or so.

I'll give greenthumb a call too.....he does shit tons of S1's....
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@Kingrow1 and Dr. Who

Here is the email response I got back from CH9 when I asked the question about males and different phenos from s-1 seeds. Please note that English is not one of his 1st languages.


"maybe some dif phenos but not muhc if you use one pollen only, and rarely a male, but male can happen with fem seeds so why not s1 too, by expeirience i do not remeber seeing a male with s1 but again why not, its part of nature. if it can happen to fem seeds it can happen to s1 too"
 
MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Observe & Report said:
I wish people would stop spouting ignorant crap like "S1's are a genetic mirror of the mother." Seriously, scientists have been working on this for centuries and your "observations" add NOTHING to the conversation except confusing other ignorant people.

A good place for you to start is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance Pay particular attention to the Law of Assortment.
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Ever wonder why people don't listen and you have to announce and yell?

We have been chatting about much more than that and are enjoying clearing up doubts or myths about many things.

Try copying the particular info you command us to read and enter it into the conversation civilly.

Thanks
 
Kingrow1

Kingrow1

Well-Known Member
Observe & Report said:
I wish people would stop spouting ignorant crap like "S1's are a genetic mirror of the mother." Seriously, scientists have been working on this for centuries and your "observations" add NOTHING to the conversation except confusing other ignorant people.

A good place for you to start is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance Pay particular attention to the Law of Assortment.
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Your welcome to add what you know, for me its just basic asexual reproduction and plants have been doing this for a long time.
 
Dr. Who

Dr. Who

Well-Known Member
Observe & Report said:
I wish people would stop spouting ignorant crap like "S1's are a genetic mirror of the mother." Seriously, scientists have been working on this for centuries and your "observations" add NOTHING to the conversation except confusing other ignorant people.

A good place for you to start is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance Pay particular attention to the Law of Assortment.
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I quote opinion from hands on work. I follow the science more then you think. I suggest you dig deeper into exactly what you are doing and how it's done by "selfing" or creating S1 seeds. When you treat a plant with an agent to make it grow balls. Where would the "other" genetic material come from that would create phenotypical difference's? This has been the point of many on my saying, "There is no guarantee of 100% female seeds from fem - S1 - selfed seeds (they are the same thing)."

S1 seeds contain only the identical genetic strands of the mother! THIS IS SCIENCE! Now how is this not a "genetic mirror" of the mother?

You must also remember that there is no such thing as a "genetic" shift. Without new genetic material. I believe in "Chaos" theory. In nature, living things will find a way to naturally reproduce (even if the science say's it can't happen by genetic "law") this theory was part of the point in the first Jurassic Park movie. Everything evolves by genetic shift, applied by environmental condition. This is how I like to categorize those "males" popping up in selfed seeds.....Some times the reality of nature, stick's it to science.

Mendelian law is correct. Your understanding it, in what is involved here....is incorrect.

The "ignorant" comment is rather misplaced.
 
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MichiganMedGrower

MichiganMedGrower

Well-Known Member
Oh and @Kingrow1 the Ch9 Greenbud is a hybrid of Ed Rosenthal Super Bud which seems to have some amazing phenos from the old sativas too.

Hope you weren't being sarcastic. I don't actually have any other experience with Sensei. Only the strains the breeder wanted over a decade ago.
 
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