Why do you oppose universal, single-payer healthcare?

thenotsoesoteric

thenotsoesoteric

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
Sales makes labor which makes the world go around:wink:
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No labor makes sales. You have to have a product before you can pitch it for sales. With or with out sales, people will still need services and so they would seek out those services. Sales just helps maximize demand by finding the demand instead of demand finding service.
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
visajoe1 said:
think i didnt know you would say that? we're all a spokes in the wheel bud. but, lets see the forklift guy at the campbells soup factory lead a national brand. negotiating agreements with a litany of vendors and creditors and landlords, ensuring accurate marketing campaigns with multi million dollar budgets, dealing with union contracts, state laws, federal laws, employment laws, and answer to investors every 3 months. that would be embarrassing to watch, just like watching a ceo run a forklift. can you do any of that? most cant, which is why ceo's make so much loot. anyone can drive a forklift, so, although important, there isnt much value there. thats all it is.
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I'm here to tell you not everyone can drive a forklift in a high speed shipping facility and be good.

That's the truth. Its why it pays good most places.

Can you pick a nickel up with a fork lift? I can.
 
captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
The government better do something to keep it's citizens happy or things could get ugly in the next 15 years. According to some studies 38% of the US workforce will be vulnerable to being replaced by AI and automation by the 2030's. Bill Gates has been talking about universal basic income and a tax on robots.
 
captainmorgan

captainmorgan

Well-Known Member
If you look at the amount of money he has given away already and he's still the richest man in the world and he plans on giving it all away eventually. I'd say he's in a class of his own while the rest of the billionaires seem to chase every last nickle they can get their hands on until someone throws dirt on their graves.
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
SneekyNinja said:
The only thing ginger is good for is adding zing to a curry or baking some cookies.

I'll stick to chemo for cancer, thanks.
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Actually he is speaking truth. Watched it with my own eyes. Doctor almost killed my dad with chemo and radiation. He quit and never looked back. He uses nothing but herbal medicine now.

Hell our own history books tell us that American Indians were disease free.

I have family that were taught "medicine" similar to what Indians used.

Why do researchers spend so much time studying plants in rain forest?

There is truth to it. I'm not going to say any one of those roots will cure by themselves. It takes a combination of things when going that route.

Cannabis kills cancer, so do other plants and herbs.
 
visajoe1

visajoe1

Well-Known Member
whitebb2727 said:
I'm here to tell you not everyone can drive a forklift in a high speed shipping facility and be good.

That's the truth. Its why it pays good most places.

Can you pick a nickel up with a fork lift? I can.
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thats cool, how much does that trick pay?
 
Rooster802

Rooster802

Active Member
SneekyNinja said:
I like science.

The thing about medicine is that if it works, the scientists take it away and isolate the active ingredient and then a new medicine is born.

Do you honestly think ginger can cure cancer yet millions of people die from it worldwide every year?
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Yes. And I like science too. I have 2 science degrees and have been involved in medical research. So I understand the game a little better than most.

I get what you are saying. Its cute you believe that is the way the world works. It isn't. A scientist discovers something that may be of use. The company then invests in tons of research that costs a lot of money (millions and millions) and involves heavy payoffs to the FDA and then publishes the positive findings and buries the negative. Then they mass produce this drug under half truth pretense. And then inundate our televisions with the suggestion this new chemical will finally give us some relief from our awful lives. And usually somehow these drugs are all addictive and once we start them we can't stop... customer acquisition is expensive but it is for life so worth it.

I believe (and there is plenty of evidence to support my theory) that if we destroyed all prescription drugs in the world right now, a lot of people would die over the next couple of weeks and the rest of us would feel better if we survived the first 6 months. I have floated that theory to a lot of physicians and almost all of them ruefully laugh and say I'm probably right....

Anyhow, it doesn't matter. I'm not going to change your mind and that is fine. Your also not going to convince me that prescription medicine is safe. But I do encourage you to start asking questions for yourself and stop accepting what is being told to you by people who have a personal profit motive involved. If someone has nothing to gain except maybe helping a fellow human being (such as the entire hippie community that has continued to share their knowledge of cannabis as medicine, and just now 60 years later the science community is beginning to research it and is finding out the hippies were right all along).
And a more honest answer to if I believe ginger can "cure" cancer, well it causes tumor cells to go through something called "apoptosis" which is programmed cellular death. So actually ginger DOES kill cancer cells. But just taking ginger for your real life cancer tumor probably isn't going to save your life. But it sure could be another weapon to fight cancer with.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Rooster802 said:
Yes. And I like science too. I have 2 science degrees and have been involved in medical research. So I understand the game a little better than most.

I get what you are saying. Its cute you believe that is the way the world works. It isn't. A scientist discovers something that may be of use. The company then invests in tons of research that costs a lot of money (millions and millions) and involves heavy payoffs to the FDA and then publishes the positive findings and buries the negative. Then they mass produce this drug under half truth pretense. And then inundate our televisions with the suggestion this new chemical will finally give us some relief from our awful lives. And usually somehow these drugs are all addictive and once we start them we can't stop... customer acquisition is expensive but it is for life so worth it.

I believe (and there is plenty of evidence to support my theory) that if we destroyed all prescription drugs in the world right now, a lot of people would die over the next couple of weeks and the rest of us would feel better if we survived the first 6 months. I have floated that theory to a lot of physicians and almost all of them ruefully laugh and say I'm probably right....

Anyhow, it doesn't matter. I'm not going to change your mind and that is fine. Your also not going to convince me that prescription medicine is safe. But I do encourage you to start asking questions for yourself and stop accepting what is being told to you by people who have a personal profit motive involved. If someone has nothing to gain except maybe helping a fellow human being (such as the entire hippie community that has continued to share their knowledge of cannabis as medicine, and just now 60 years later the science community is beginning to research it and is finding out the hippies were right all along).
And a more honest answer to if I believe ginger can "cure" cancer, well it causes tumor cells to go through something called "apoptosis" which is programmed cellular death. So actually ginger DOES kill cancer cells. But just taking ginger for your real life cancer tumor probably isn't going to save your life. But it sure could be another weapon to fight cancer with.
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"A lot of people would die in the first few months"

Fucking Republicans. Only care about themselves. If you were on high blood pressure medication, maybe you'd be less blase. Penicillin saved a lot of lives too. Ibuprofen is an over the counter drug but a dependable treatment for inflammation that saved my life during some weird autoimmune flare up.

It's the drive for give rosy quarterly reports and Wall Street business practices that corrupt the pharma industry. Also an overworked medical system that is forbidden to advise outside of DEA guidelines.

Some people in San Francisco were poisoned by herbal concoctions to treat anxiety from a homeopathic herbalist too. What you said was stupid, simple and wrong. Not false in facts but wrong in conclusion.
 
Rooster802

Rooster802

Active Member
Fogdog said:
"A lot of people would die in the first few months"

Fucking Republicans. Only care about themselves. If you were on high blood pressure medication, maybe you'd be less blase. Penicillin saved a lot of lives too. Ibuprofen is an over the counter drug but a dependable treatment for inflammation that saved my life during some weird autoimmune flare up.

It's the drive for give rosy quarterly reports and Wall Street business practices that corrupt the pharma industry. Also an overworked medical system that is forbidden to advise outside of DEA guidelines.

Some people in San Francisco were poisoned by herbal concoctions to treat anxiety from a homeopathic herbalist too. What you said was stupid, simple and wrong. Not false in facts but wrong in conclusion.
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LOL, not a Republican. Penicillin is wonderful but has been misunderstood and over prescribed by a factor of a thousand and because of this it has taken a lot of lives. Ibuprofen is a wonderful drug, but can destroy the kidneys if taken inappropriately. You guys, I'm a health care professional with a license and everything. Stop reading into what I'm writing. A lot of people would die immediately because without insulin all those diabetics would... die. My point was that diabetes can be "cured" with simple real food. FACT. You mention blood pressure medication, BP meds cause impotency, impotency is one of the biggest problem in middle aged men and it makes for a lot of insecurity and mental illness. But blood pressure can be controlled through diet alone. Fact. Cannabis is the best BP medicine I've ever seen in effect, and it doesn't kill your boner. As a matter of fact, sex is better on cannabis. My point is big pharma is fucking all of us with false information and preventing us from having knowledge of treatments that are just as effective without side effects that we can grow for pennies in our gardens. Or buy off the grocery store shelves (or order online from Amazon). Being healthy doesn't have to be expensive, and can be much more effective, and you can even feel good!
Those are very liberal thoughts. Everyone healthy and feeling good. I like socialized medicine (especially for trauma and emergency care, as well as surgery). What I don't like is being told we all have to share the costs of an ineffective profit driven healthcare system that prefers us chronically sick and stupid over a healthy mentally alert society. We are basically being raised like cattle, fed the wrong foods to get us ill, and then we take addictive meds that hurt us without killing us. Like BP medicine. Lipitor is even worse. Lipitor lowers cholesterol, but there is zero evidence that is actually prolongs life. But it has a bunch of nasty side effects. Millions and millions of Americans are taking Lipitor. And they will take it until death. That's a beautiful business model.
But keep reading into what I'm writing. I'm on your side. All of your sides, both liberals and conservatives. I'm simple saying we have to fix the health care system before we can discuss a socialized option.
Health care can be cheap, just eat the right foods and walk for 20 minutes a day. You won't be sick. And then it will be easier for all of us to share the burden of world class emergency care and surgical trauma services. I like a model that works, Obamacare has its days numbered. It was never sustainable and was never meant to be, just a short term fix to get the last administration through their eight years. We can't spend a million dollars on every cancer case when 1 in 3 Americans get cancer. We don't have that much money. Nobody does. The math doesn't work... that all I've been trying to say.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Rooster802 said:
LOL, not a Republican. Penicillin is wonderful but has been misunderstood and over prescribed by a factor of a thousand and because of this it has taken a lot of lives. Ibuprofen is a wonderful drug, but can destroy the kidneys if taken inappropriately. You guys, I'm a health care professional with a license and everything. Stop reading into what I'm writing. A lot of people would die immediately because without insulin all those diabetics would... die. My point was that diabetes can be "cured" with simple real food. FACT. You mention blood pressure medication, BP meds cause impotency, impotency is one of the biggest problem in middle aged men and it makes for a lot of insecurity and mental illness. But blood pressure can be controlled through diet alone. Fact. Cannabis is the best BP medicine I've ever seen in effect, and it doesn't kill your boner. As a matter of fact, sex is better on cannabis. My point is big pharma is fucking all of us with false information and preventing us from having knowledge of treatments that are just as effective without side effects that we can grow for pennies in our gardens. Or buy off the grocery store shelves (or order online from Amazon). Being healthy doesn't have to be expensive, and can be much more effective, and you can even feel good!
Those are very liberal thoughts. Everyone healthy and feeling good. I like socialized medicine (especially for trauma and emergency care, as well as surgery). What I don't like is being told we all have to share the costs of an ineffective profit driven healthcare system that prefers us chronically sick and stupid over a healthy mentally alert society. We are basically being raised like cattle, fed the wrong foods to get us ill, and then we take addictive meds that hurt us without killing us. Like BP medicine. Lipitor is even worse. Lipitor lowers cholesterol, but there is zero evidence that is actually prolongs life. But it has a bunch of nasty side effects. Millions and millions of Americans are taking Lipitor. And they will take it until death. That's a beautiful business model.
But keep reading into what I'm writing. I'm on your side. All of your sides, both liberals and conservatives. I'm simple saying we have to fix the health care system before we can discuss a socialized option.
Health care can be cheap, just eat the right foods and walk for 20 minutes a day. You won't be sick. And then it will be easier for all of us to share the burden of world class emergency care and surgical trauma services. I like a model that works, Obamacare has its days numbered. It was never sustainable and was never meant to be, just a short term fix to get the last administration through their eight years. We can't spend a million dollars on every cancer case when 1 in 3 Americans get cancer. We don't have that much money. Nobody does. The math doesn't work... that all I've been trying to say.
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No big fan of Big Pharma. For myself, I maintain physical well being, I do eat the right foods and don't take anything because I don't need to. Not responding in defense of big pharma. The way they structure their business to maximize profit and suppress smarter ways towards good health is a major reason why our health care system is fucked. For instance, I do not doubt that studies regarding the effects of high cholesterol drugs and cholesterol in general were influenced if not designed by Big Pharma to benefit their business model and not actually advance our knowledge. As you point out we've recently learned drugs like Lipitor don't really help the patient. I'm willing to bet that the makers of Lipitor have a lobbying effort to cast doubt on this finding.

Just saying that prescription medicine does have it's place in health care. Also the underlying cause of the decline in health in the US has little to do with health care.

What I found shocking was your callous opening line about people dying without medication but the remaining population will be healthy. What you suggest is horrifying. Emphasizing economics as the limiting factor is also simple and wrong. Yes, there are limits but the focus has to be on people, facts, advancing knowledge, education and the reduction in economic stress in this society. Other societies operate just fine with socialized medicine, which is pretty much proof positive that your idea about this subject are your own and not factual.
 
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