amending as you go?

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I called the local farmers co-op

they don't stock it but I bet if I went in I could ask them to order it

im just a little paranoid
its a small farming community and I don't have a garden/farm going :shock: gotta keep the peepers away
everyone knows everyone (except me im from out of town lol)

ive gone in there in the past and ordered stuff they don't stock
everyone always gets curious and asks :what are using that for?

I order some mkp 50lbs a couple years back and was asked by three people what im using it for

I said roses
but still
KIS organics has the 35 lbs of basalt with free shipping
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
i was shooting for granite rock dust first
specifically for the k

im going to avoid the soft rock phosphate and green sand for now

andesite
that's a new one for me I will need to search it out...haven't yet seen it supplied anywhere

suppose I can find the andesite

it seems I have options in
glacial rock
basalt rock
azomite

would you have a recommendation on how % to blend any of these options?
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
i was shooting for granite rock dust first
specifically for the k

im going to avoid the soft rock phosphate and green sand for now

andesite
that's a new one for me I will need to search it out...haven't yet seen it supplied anywhere

suppose I can find the andesite

it seems I have options in
glacial rock
basalt rock
azomite

would you have a recommendation on how % to blend any of these options?
a one to one ratio of the basalt and glacial rock would be fine, you'd also be fine to use the basalt on it's own, if you are using kelp meal it'll cover most everything that azomite has, and it's more available
don't get the granite with the expectation that it'll give you the potassium that you need, its waaaaay too slow of a release for that, same with greensand.
andesite is similar to basalt, highly paramagnetic.
I don';t like granite because it's possible/likely its slightly radioactive.
5% naturally is
heres a good read regarding it

http://solidsurfacealliance.org/G-radioactivity-radon-issues.html
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
they add the shipping into the purchase price

so its not really free its just included

if I buy the fifty pounds with shipping its about $80 so its close to the same
This is why I keep yarping about buying locally.

Here, 60lbs+ costs a whopping $5. That is per a 5 gallon bucket and you supply the bucket and shovel. Weight is closer to 75# if you really fill the bucket, but I only did that once. LOL

It did take a couple of years to locate a source, but wasn't looking all that hard, because at the end of the day there was still the kelp meal.

A 50lb bag of kelp meal is $74.80 delivered to my door. Besides the K value it also covers all the minerals and trace elements needed and much more beyond that. It is a true "must have" and well worth the ~$1.50/lb cost.

Granite meal @0.08/lb is nice for something that's nice to have, but not necessarily needed. $1.50/lb is downright silly. Same with any other rock dust or even Azomite, although IMO, Azomite is the best bang for the buck if shipping is involved. It truly does have everything, but still less than what kelp meal offers.

But, it's your $$$ to spend .... or not.
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
so maybe im just stuck with using the azomite for now
I can buy it local and its not expensive when theres no shipping

question;
if I was planning to mix new soil

1 cubic ft
2.5 gallons peat
2.5 humus
2.5 gallons perlite
1 cup lime
4 cups basalt rock dust
2 cups kelp meal
2 cups amendments

1 part alfalfa
1 part crab meal
1/2 part neem cake
1/2 part fish meal


how would I best change the mix removing the or eliminating the basalt rock dust?
would I increase kelp or add azomite or both or neither?

second question
how much vermiculite would be suggested to add to this mix? and would adding vermiculite change any of the other amounts
(for example perlite)

third question;
its related to potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate
I am currently adding in potassium sulfate in the event I need more K and magnesium sulfate if I need more magnesium

but since potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate are water soluble and not bio available thru decomp, would it be safe to assume it leaches from the soil quickly requiring frequent inputs?

or is that not the way it works??
if I add magnesium sulfate and or potassium sulfate to my soil to cook it in... will that potassium and magnesium remain in the soil available when the fat girls want it ... or is it going to leach away with each watering

if it does leach away
whats a primary source (other than kelp meal) that adds a medium/slow release K
(other than green sand and granite RD which is super slow)
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
I think it was said early that maybe (mis spelled) lingbinite or something close to that

please correct me

whats the % amounts for whats in it ... my memory want to tell me it wasn't very high in K,,,... but I could be recalling wrong
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
maybe I could also look at it another way

if my amendment mix had less or no fishmeal or neem meal id have better N to K ratio in the mix
by proportionately increasing the amount of alfalfa and kelp meal
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
GMM

Keep us updated on the paramagnetism thing. IDK, I got pretty heavy into the Pyramid Power thing in the early/mid 70's and that experience left me pretty much un-enthused concerning further research. Like....:hump: unenthused.:roll:

Yeah, the K in granite meal is really slow and seems to work better for that in actual soil rather than container mixes. As slow as it is, *I* would still prefer Greensand over granite meal for that purpose. It also brings more to the table IMO and really compliments kelp meal.

God, not too glow in the dark I hope. Underneath all this red clay is pretty much solid granite. But still, it gets damn dark here at night. LOL
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
10- 5- 7 if I drop the fish meal
figuring
1/2 part neem cake
1part alfalfa
1part crabmeal
2part kelp

7-4-6 if I drop the fish meal and neem cake
figuring
1part alfalfa
1part crabmeal
2part kelp
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
14-5-5 if I use them all (a lot of N ah?)
figuring
1/2 part neem
1/2 part fish meal
1 part alfalfa
1 part crab meal
2 parts kelp meal
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
I guess it really just depends on how quickly each becomes available

im not looking t the numbers as if there hydro

im just looking for some kind of reference to make sure my amendment mix is balanced
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
so maybe im just stuck with using the azomite for now
I can buy it local and its not expensive when theres no shipping

question;
if I was planning to mix new soil

1 cubic ft
2.5 gallons peat Increase to 3 gallons
2.5 humus Decrease to 2 gallons or less
2.5 gallons perlite Increase some
1 cup lime
4 cups basalt rock dust Eliminate. Use 1 - 2 cups Azomite, but no more than 2
2 cups kelp meal Make this instead
1 cup kelp meal
1 cup bone meal (whatever works for you, fish, cow, porcine)
1 cup neem meal

2 cups amendments

1 part alfalfa
1 part crab meal
1/2 part neem cake Use this serarate, see above
1/2 part fish meal


how would I best change the mix removing the or eliminating the basalt rock dust?
would I increase kelp or add azomite or both or neither?

second question
how much vermiculite would be suggested to add to this mix? and would adding vermiculite change any of the other amounts
(for example perlite)
IDK, I don't use vermiculite at all in my mixes, so no help there

third question;
its related to potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate
I am currently adding in potassium sulfate in the event I need more K and magnesium sulfate if I need more magnesium

but since potassium sulfate and magnesium sulfate are water soluble and not bio available thru decomp, would it be safe to assume it leaches from the soil quickly requiring frequent inputs?

or is that not the way it works??
if I add magnesium sulfate and or potassium sulfate to my soil to cook it in... will that potassium and magnesium remain in the soil available when the fat girls want it ... or is it going to leach away with each watering

if it does leach away
whats a primary source (other than kelp meal) that adds a medium/slow release K
(other than green sand and granite RD which is super slow)
I do add some epsom salts to a fresh mix, but have found that by the time it leaches out the Mg in the dolo has started to release and nothing further is required.

For more K beyond the kelp meal I'll add ProTect Silica 1/4tsp/gallon every other week or so. Brings more to the table than just K. A little goes a long way.

I answered within your quote, so please expand it for my answers

HTH
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
I have potassium silicate powder from my hydro salts

2.5mls per gallon of protect 3% K and 7.8% Si provides 16ppm K and 50ppm Si (good amount of Si)

if I use 0.25 grams per gallon of potassium silicate powder it would be equal 18ppm K and 27ppm Si

that's not much K at all...using it every other week doesn't provide anything worth mentioning in the way of K but the extra Si is nice

just for comparison your average hydro fert solution like general hydro or advanced will provide 130 to 150 ppm K for both veg and flower at around EC 1.3

I was going to ask if the silica causes any issue with your ph but at that low a rate and frequency I don't think it would
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
You're still thinking in hydro terms of NPK and it just don't work like that.

Did you expand your quote in my post and look at my answers to your input/amendments listings?

I haven't even thought of the NPK values of my inputs in several years. It is really that little of a concern. How and when it's available and what else it brings to the table, is.

Please click to expand that entire quote, I think it may be helpful.

Wet
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
You're still thinking in hydro terms of NPK and it just don't work like that.

Did you expand your quote in my post and look at my answers to your input/amendments listings?

I haven't even thought of the NPK values of my inputs in several years. It is really that little of a concern. How and when it's available and what else it brings to the table, is.

Please click to expand that entire quote, I think it may be helpful.

Wet
yes I did get the expanded info

thank you so much for taking the time

I understand what your saying,,, I do

but in the case of these soluble fertilizers they wash out

so adding that small of potassium every 2 weeks and the fact that it doesn't stick around isn't really a primary source of K for the long run

its likely doing great things making your stem strong from the Si but as for K its literally about nothing

if you told me you where adding that much every watering id think ok that's a good bit of K but every other week its fractional

so what im saying is its not really adding much to the buffet for the fat guy inn terms of K

potassium sulfate, although it contains sulfur it also contains very large amounts of potassium

a 1/4 tsp of K-S is likely well over 100ppm (I haven't checked it to be exact)

I could see adding that every week or 2 to get the K up on the buffet
 

im4satori

Well-Known Member
im not speaking in terms of NPK ratios or balancing the NPK numbers or any of that hydro talk

im just speaking purely in terms of the amount of K added to the buffet
 

Wetdog

Well-Known Member
That's what *I* found to work best for me with the ProTec. Of course you can use more often, up to like every other watering. Using it at higher rates didn't work as well for me, but up to 1tsp/gallon is Ok, IIRC. One thing for sure, is that more frequent light doses worked way better than less frequent heavier doses. VOE

It also was/is just one of several sources of K that's in my mix. Kelp meal, neem cake and greensand, off the top of my head just for starters.

In organics, there is seldom just a single source for any of the NPK. Not so much the fat man's buffet, but a fat man's tray full of mini desserts that he can pick and choose from. Small bites, but they add up.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
im not speaking in terms of NPK ratios or balancing the NPK numbers or any of that hydro talk

im just speaking purely in terms of the amount of K added to the buffet
I know I keep saying it man, and I wish I was there so you could see the way I say it... as in non-offensive
you are overthinking all of this, like 60,000%
where are you roughly?, give me a city or state area, and i'll find you what you need, but you've been told by some of the absolute most knowledgeable organic guru's here the same thing, you are thinking of this all the wrong way, and I guarantee if you continue it'll bite you in the ass, especially if you are making your own soil.
just do not add up the npk numbers, you'll only confuse yourself further and lead you to adjustments you don't need

I think the honest to god best decision for you at this point is to get a bag (or better yet find local) of composted steer manure (cheap), get kelp meal, and get rock dusts, and be done with it.
steer manure will cover essentially everything, and what it lacks the kelp will cover.
start a compost and or a wormbin (preferably both, they are different)
the road you are already going down is going to lead you to frustration, more money spent, and I've seen too many growers do that, and then they think organics is shitty because their grow didn't go well
probably 95% of first time organic growers are guilty of the same thing, so don't feel bad, but you need to listen to us.. you are making waaaaay more work for you than you need to.

trust me, I have a few neurotic tendencies as well, i know what it's like man, and you just gotta resist the urge to overthink/overwork it all

im not speaking in terms of NPK ratios or balancing the NPK numbers or any of that hydro talk

im just speaking purely in terms of the amount of K added to the buffet
you were thinking of langbeinite, its also called sul/po/mag has a good amount of potassium in it, as well as sulfur and magnesium (hence the sulpomag name)
don't add the potassium silicate, don't add the magnesium sulfate, don't add the potassium sulfate, you don't want that in there at all.

you inquired about potassium inputs, these are good ones to add. I'm not putting the ashes in there because I don't like the solubility or ph fluctuations it has.

comfrey, dandelion and nettles are fantastic sources of potassium, not to mention they are renewable and FREE ( I can't recommend enough on the importance of fresh comfrey as a frequent topdress)
most seed meals are as well, soybean, cottonseed, neem etc
alfalfa meal and kelp are staples in most organic mixes
manures are reaaaally great, for an even bioavailable fertilizer that add humus to the mix as well as microbial diversity, as well as sulfur (crucial for it's role in terpine development)
the best being manure being alpaca (easier to find than one might think, look for alpaca wool farms)
sheep manure is high in potassium too
insect frass is sorta also
my advice is to forget about langbeinite in regards to it being a source of potassium, it's more for micro nutrients and sulfur, but it's to be used very sparingly and depending on your decisions it may be too much (magnesium and potassium in large amounts cause lockouts)

I honestly urge you to take a simpler approach, get some local dairy/steer manure or if you are lucky alpaca manure, then mix that in with your existing ffof, add kelp meal, a form of fresh humus (check craigslist for hippy wormfarmers or composters) and some rock dusts
that will be more user-friendly to you, and much more forgiving.
not to beat a dead horse, but I cannot stress enough the value of having comfrey, dandelion (who can't find those anyways) or stinging nettles
I have yet to use nettles but comfrey is almost a must-have, in fact for me? it is.
I would not do a grow without it personally
 
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