What would Lincoln do? Errors of the American Left

DiogenesTheWiser

Well-Known Member
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/why-cant-the-left-win/522102/

We on the Left have fallen into the trap of the Right and its propaganda.

The article says it better than I can.

Discuss.
Lincoln was on the Left when he was president in the 1860s. The GOP back then was a left party--and as a coalition party that swept up some Free Soilers and Know-Nothings and former Whigs--the probusiness wing took over by the 1880s. But between 1861 and 1880, the GOP was the Left party in the American party system. The Democratic Party was the party of tradition, authoritarianism, "small government," and white supremacy.

The postwar GOP supported full citizenship for freedmen (women were not allowed to vote back then except New Jersey) with full civil rights. The GOP passed laws like the Klan Act that gave the federal government power to investigate private clubs in the South--and they did--bringing hundreds of witnesses to Congress. The GOP of the 1860s pushed three amendments through Congress, and forced the ex-Confederate states to ratify them before re-entry into the nation. The Reconstruction Amendments, 14th and 15th, clearly state federal authority over state laws and "states' rights." The GOP also set up the first welfare agency in American history--the Freedmen's Bureau.

The Democratic Party back then fought all of these things. By 1880, however, the so-called "radical Republicans" had lost their leadership positions and many former Whigs and probusiness Republicans took over Party leadership. As deals struck with the Democrats, they vowed no more Leftwing type of policies.

I read the article, and Lincoln's quoted and paraphrased section is interesting given our current political milieu. Lincoln said don't yell and scream and insult people--or else they'll shut down and refuse to listen to you. Trumpers do exactly that--they yell, scream, beat their chests, call you call kinds of names, and then expect you to like their "grab them by the pussies" president.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Lincoln was on the Left when he was president in the 1860s. The GOP back then was a left party--and as a coalition party that swept up some Free Soilers and Know-Nothings and former Whigs--the probusiness wing took over by the 1880s. But between 1861 and 1880, the GOP was the Left party in the American party system. The Democratic Party was the party of tradition, authoritarianism, "small government," and white supremacy.

The postwar GOP supported full citizenship for freedmen (women were not allowed to vote back then except New Jersey) with full civil rights. The GOP passed laws like the Klan Act that gave the federal government power to investigate private clubs in the South--and they did--bringing hundreds of witnesses to Congress. The GOP of the 1860s pushed three amendments through Congress, and forced the ex-Confederate states to ratify them before re-entry into the nation. The Reconstruction Amendments, 14th and 15th, clearly state federal authority over state laws and "states' rights." The GOP also set up the first welfare agency in American history--the Freedmen's Bureau.

The Democratic Party back then fought all of these things. By 1880, however, the so-called "radical Republicans" had lost their leadership positions and many former Whigs and probusiness Republicans took over Party leadership. As deals struck with the Democrats, they vowed no more Leftwing type of policies.

I read the article, and Lincoln's quoted and paraphrased section is interesting given our current political milieu. Lincoln said don't yell and scream and insult people--or else they'll shut down and refuse to listen to you. Trumpers do exactly that--they yell, scream, beat their chests, call you call kinds of names, and then expect you to like their "grab them by the pussies" president.
Unfortunately, the Democrats now fall into similar traps. The fact that we can't have a dialogue without falling into accusations and name calling plays right into the hands of those who don't want anyone else communicating ideas but themselves.
 
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schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Lincoln was on the Left when he was president in the 1860s. The GOP back then was a left party--and as a coalition party that swept up some Free Soilers and Know-Nothings and former Whigs--the probusiness wing took over by the 1880s. But between 1861 and 1880, the GOP was the Left party in the American party system. The Democratic Party was the party of tradition, authoritarianism, "small government," and white supremacy.

The postwar GOP supported full citizenship for freedmen (women were not allowed to vote back then except New Jersey) with full civil rights. The GOP passed laws like the Klan Act that gave the federal government power to investigate private clubs in the South--and they did--bringing hundreds of witnesses to Congress. The GOP of the 1860s pushed three amendments through Congress, and forced the ex-Confederate states to ratify them before re-entry into the nation. The Reconstruction Amendments, 14th and 15th, clearly state federal authority over state laws and "states' rights." The GOP also set up the first welfare agency in American history--the Freedmen's Bureau.

The Democratic Party back then fought all of these things. By 1880, however, the so-called "radical Republicans" had lost their leadership positions and many former Whigs and probusiness Republicans took over Party leadership. As deals struck with the Democrats, they vowed no more Leftwing type of policies.

I read the article, and Lincoln's quoted and paraphrased section is interesting given our current political milieu. Lincoln said don't yell and scream and insult people--or else they'll shut down and refuse to listen to you. Trumpers do exactly that--they yell, scream, beat their chests, call you call kinds of names, and then expect you to like their "grab them by the pussies" president.
And hypocrites as well:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/05/05/lara-trump-stephen-colberts-rant-really-disrespectful-and-outrageous.html
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
“you will not arrest the reactionary momentum by ignoring it or dismissing it entirely as a function of bigotry or stupidity. You’ll only defuse it by appreciating its insights and co-opting its appeal.”

That is a fantastic quote, extremely poignant
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
“you will not arrest the reactionary momentum by ignoring it or dismissing it entirely as a function of bigotry or stupidity. You’ll only defuse it by appreciating its insights and co-opting its appeal.”

That is a fantastic quote, extremely poignant
are you interested in co-opting the sexism, racism, and bigotry that elected trump?
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
“you will not arrest the reactionary momentum by ignoring it or dismissing it entirely as a function of bigotry or stupidity. You’ll only defuse it by appreciating its insights and co-opting its appeal.”

That is a fantastic quote, extremely poignant
He didn't rise to be President by accident.

That's timely advice in our extremely divisive and reactionary political climate.
 

tangerinegreen555

Well-Known Member
He didn't rise to be President by accident.
James Comey, Russian hacking, fake news, racist blowback after 8 yrs. of a black president, deception about jobs (past, present & future), wikileaks, science deniers, rising medical costs, terrorism based irrational fear and ideology over facts with a massive number of low information voters who go by how they 'feel' or what they 'heard'.

Sounds kinda like an 'accident' to me. How can you plan a campaign to win like that? Can you lose by 3 million and still expect to win? Trump was more surprised than anybody last Nov. 8.

How do you combat fake news? Or racism? Or brainwashed stupidity? You can play into that easier than trying to fight it.

Until the truth is accepted as truth again, the system will remain the same.

Just because you're reasonably intelligent, doesn't mean the next voter is.

What the left does will have very little impact on Trump's voters. Don't argue with me until you talk to some of them. It's very enlightening to see just how fucked up people can choose to be.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
James Comey, Russian hacking, fake news, racist blowback after 8 yrs. of a black president, deception about jobs (past, present & future), wikileaks, science deniers, rising medical costs, terrorism based irrational fear and ideology over facts with a massive number of low information voters who go by how they 'feel' or what they 'heard'.

Sounds kinda like an 'accident' to me. How can you plan a campaign to win like that? Can you lose by 3 million and still expect to win? Trump was more surprised than anybody last Nov. 8.

How do you combat fake news? Or racism? Or brainwashed stupidity? You can play into that easier than trying to fight it.

Until the truth is accepted as truth again, the system will remain the same.

Just because you're reasonably intelligent, doesn't mean the next voter is.

What the left does will have very little impact on Trump's voters. Don't argue with me until you talk to some of them. It's very enlightening to see just how fucked up people can choose to be.
I was referring to Mr Lincoln.

Which doesn't detract from your analysis of our current idiot in Chief in the slightest.

Or for that matter, his sycophants.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
James Comey, Russian hacking, fake news, racist blowback after 8 yrs. of a black president, deception about jobs (past, present & future), wikileaks, science deniers, rising medical costs, terrorism based irrational fear and ideology over facts with a massive number of low information voters who go by how they 'feel' or what they 'heard'.

Sounds kinda like an 'accident' to me. How can you plan a campaign to win like that? Can you lose by 3 million and still expect to win? Trump was more surprised than anybody last Nov. 8.

How do you combat fake news? Or racism? Or brainwashed stupidity? You can play into that easier than trying to fight it.

Until the truth is accepted as truth again, the system will remain the same.

Just because you're reasonably intelligent, doesn't mean the next voter is.

What the left does will have very little impact on Trump's voters. Don't argue with me until you talk to some of them. It's very enlightening to see just how fucked up people can choose to be.
I have family that are right wingers and we are on good enough terms that we can have a discussion without one or more losing it and foaming at the mouth. When I go over issues of healthcare, defense, education, social safety net and other issues of the day, we generally agree on the need for sustaining and improving on many of the social programs and the need for rational defense policy. We diverge on political leadership to sustain and improve these programs.

You can't tell me that rednecks lack intelligence. Just like liberals, most are average in intelligence, which is to say they are smart enough to figure things out for themselves. My brother, who is a redneck, has the same k-12 education that I have. Needless to say, we grew up with the same family values and got our genetics from the same mother and father. Yet, as an adult, he bought into the idea that Obama was going to take over the government in 2016 also he's preparing for the collapse of civiliztion. The difference between us goes back to before we started kindergarten. But it isn't something I can just point at and say "there it is". He has always been more accepting of authority and moral values based in his attitudes than I was.

So, no. Most aren't racist, stupid or ignorant. The video touches on basic differences between progressive left leaning people and those that are more conservative. I don't think you can deny that liberals have "explained it" to conservatives. If there is one thing that liberals like to do is lecture and talk about their beliefs. I sure wish that Al Gore had shut the fuck up more often when he was running for office. Same goes for Kerry.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/05/why-cant-the-left-win/522102/

We on the Left have fallen into the trap of the Right and its propaganda.

The article says it better than I can.

Discuss.
First, we can't deny that the right has an enormous propaganda machine that echos the message of the day as if big brother were watching and telling the right what to say, do and think. It's not in total control but a big reason why Trump and right wingers succeed. They even co-opt time on centrist media channels in the name of equal time to discuss an issue when in fact their product is fake and their objective is to confuse, not inform. Witness climate science denial. The right wing echo chamber puts people who want to discuss facts and reason with others at a disadvantage when there are fake facts in the way. Imagine what it was like to discuss the shape and form of the solar system with Catholic clergy 400 years ago. We have to start with one set of facts. And the facts must be facts, not beliefs before two sides can come to agreement.

After that, I agree wholeheartedly with the assertion that calling another an idiot only hardens the other to their view against one's own. That said, if I were having that discussion with a Catholic clergyman and assuming I am safe from getting burned at the stake, I might call him an idiot because there would be no other better description and we aren't going to make any head way in coming to agreement.

So, it's hopeless to debate when the two sides have different facts. Especially when one side is holding fast to false beliefs as facts.

I also entirely reject some people's assertion that red states would be liberal if only Sanders had been the Democratic nominee. That is fake news from the left.

What to do then? I can't accept right wing beliefs but I can accept that they hold those beliefs. I also accept that most states are populated by people who vote for leadership with conservative beliefs. Also too, the margin of victory in many states in 2016 was very small for the reactionary right wing party. The debate doesn't need to be taken to hard core right wingers like @Flaming Pie in order to convince them. Hundreds of thousands of people in states that narrowly went to Trump aren't hidebound zealots like her. But by their actions, they are shown to be more conservative than the 2016 Democratic Party. By 2018, we aren't going to change that much ideologically on either side.

And so, the argument has to be taken to the edges of the problems where we have common interest with moderate conservatives. The economy, national security, Russian hacking, are common interests. It's possible for the left to work with moderate conservatives (not the radical right) on these issues. I don't mean work with the radical right. I mean work with sensible people who hold more conservative values than the progressive left or liberals. We can agree on many things and work to common goals with enough conservatives to tip the balance without having to agree on conservative ideology, such as abortion.

I'd also like to see the Democratic left become more accepting of capable, rational and progressive candidates who are more conservative than the Democratic Party left. Litmus tests are dumb.
 

Big_Lou

Well-Known Member
My brother, who is a redneck
6c1a46778a3e4a33ddef0244e3afbae9.gif

You can't tell me that rednecks lack intelligence.
I suurrreeeee can. Intelligence often encompasses a broad spectrum. Example: Sure, Cletus might be able to cobble together a small engine and figure out how to rotate crops, but how long would he survive if you dropped him in the middle of an urban center/European city? What about his comprehension of a lecture on the finer points of race relations/racial equality? Do you believe that he has a base-level cognitive grasp on the real world?
;)

So, no. Most aren't racist, stupid or ignorant.
As a guy that has experienced the ultimate form of culture shock - a native NYer moving to (gulp) Kentucky - I can't disagree more, dude. We grew up dissing the south, but in the back of my mind I always assumed that things couldn't be as shameful and hideous as the playground talk claimed. Boy was I in for a shocker...
Within my first month here I saw every single (negative) southern stereotype in existence come to life before my eyes, without exaggeration. From slack-jawed sows with flapping bingo wings barking about McDonalds coupons, to 'people' that look like Mad Max rejects yelling 'ni**er' and 'fa**ot' in public areas.

Racist, stupid, and ignorant describes 85% of the populace here perfectly. You can tack on worthless and evolutionally stunted, as well, if you want to keep it 100.
And please keep in mind; I'm the guy that carries packages for folks, goes out of his way to help, gives thousands each year to various charities, volunteers at local help centers and VA facilities, etc.etc.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
View attachment 3937645



I suurrreeeee can. Intelligence often encompasses a broad spectrum. Example: Sure, Cletus might be able to cobble together a small engine and figure out how to rotate crops, but how long would he survive if you dropped him in the middle of an urban center/European city? What about his comprehension of a lecture on the finer points of race relations/racial equality? Do you believe that he has a base-level cognitive grasp on the real world?
;)



As a guy that has experienced the ultimate form of culture shock - a native NYer moving to (gulp) Kentucky - I can't disagree more, dude. We grew up dissing the south, but in the back of my mind I always assumed that things couldn't be as shameful and hideous as the playground talk claimed. Boy was I in for a shocker...
Within my first month here I saw every single (negative) southern stereotype in existence come to life before my eyes, without exaggeration. From slack-jawed sows with flapping bingo wings barking about McDonalds coupons, to 'people' that look like Mad Max rejects yelling 'ni**er' and 'fa**ot' in public areas.

Racist, stupid, and ignorant describes 85% of the populace here perfectly. You can tack on worthless and evolutionally stunted, as well, if you want to keep it 100.
And please keep in mind; I'm the guy that carries packages for folks, goes out of his way to help, gives thousands each year to various charities, volunteers at local help centers and VA facilities, etc.etc.
My brother is my brother. I grew up with him, we share a lot of memories and I trust him absolutely. I'll say it again, when we have a real discussion about values and what we want this country to be like, we agree. After that, he believes other leadership will deliver the same things that I want for the country.

The extended family lives in Mississippi and around Orlando-Tampa in Florida. Are they different from me, who grew up in California? You bet. My dad, who was born in Yazoo Mississippi always said that 2000 miles separation from his family was just about right. He had a 9th grade education, was racist in principle but not at the personal level. I never heard him say a racist word or act intolerantly towards anybody but I sure did hear it in private.

I get what you are saying. The rural south is a different place, with different values and beliefs. I don't think that will change in my lifetime.

That said, the rural south and redneck culture is a minority. We don't have to change hardened KY rednecks and bigots like @Flaming Pie . We have to work with people who can be reasoned with. I also think that Trump is driving many of those people away and the Democratic Party will have another chance very soon at national power. I recall Al Gore talking endlessly about his ideals and vision. He kept talking until I wanted to disgree with him because he was so condescending. It's that kind of shit that IMO drove away moderate conservatives from voting for Hillary Clinton. Well, that and a heavy dose of propaganda and misogyny.
 
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