Droop at the end of the cycle

[Tokintoucan]

Hey I have these in 2 gallon root pouches. Under a viparspectra 900. Every day towards the end of the 18hr light (around 15hr in) they will all look a bit droopy and sad, when the light comes back on they look fine? Temp is about 27 and humidity 52, thanks. I have uploaded an example from yesterday

 

[MickFoster]

Hey I have these in 2 gallon root pouches. Under a viparspectra 900. Every day towards the end of the 18hr light (around 15hr in) they will all look a bit droopy and sad, when the light comes back on they look fine? Temp is about 27 and humidity 52, thanks. I have uploaded an example from yesterday

That's normal for a plant that size. I notice it doesn't happen on real young plants or mature plants - it's almost like they know it's time to sleep, then perk up in the morning when the light is on.

 

[Xs121]

I'm not an expert grower but my main indicator for veg stage is turgor pressure. Having said that, I make sure that my leaves stays up whether the light is on or not.

We know that during light on photosynthesis is responsible for bringing up water/nute to the top/parts of the plant thus the leaves are pointing up. At lights off though, I rely in the process of osmosis to keep my plants pumping water to the top.

To keep osmosis going, I make sure that the water potential from the root is higher than that of my environment. To achieve this, (I grow in rockwool) I feed my nute solution during lights on and feed them just water during lights off. This is just for the veg stage, for flowering stage I have a different feeding schedule.

By doing this, I've never seen my leaves droop even at lights off.

 

[Dr. Who]

I'm not an expert grower but my main indicator for veg stage is turgor pressure. Having said that, I make sure that my leaves stays up whether the light is on or not.

We know that during light on photosynthesis is responsible for bringing up water/nute to the top/parts of the plant thus the leaves are pointing up. At lights off though, I rely in the process of osmosis to keep my plants pumping water to the top.

To keep osmosis going, I make sure that the water potential from the root is higher than that of my environment. To achieve this, (I grow in rockwool) I feed my nute solution during lights on and feed them just water during lights off. This is just for the veg stage, for flowering stage I have a different feeding schedule.

By doing this, I've never seen my leaves droop even at lights off.

I take it you run ebb trays? Why do you run any cycle at all at night?

5 cycles a day, 15 min a cycle. First at lights on, evenly space the remaining 4 to have the last run right before lights out. This carries rockwool over the night and the plant looses nothing! This is done veg and bloom. Changing nothing but the nutrients.

Drooping of plants at the end of the day - A normal thing with plants getting the proper light intensity. Very normal in the outdoor sun!

For cause - search up Light saturation point in C3 plants....

 

[Xs121]

I take it you run ebb trays? Why do you run any cycle at all at night?

5 cycles a day, 15 min a cycle. First at lights on, evenly space the remaining 4 to have the last run right before lights out. This carries rockwool over the night and the plant looses nothing! This is done veg and bloom. Changing nothing but the nutrients.

Drooping of plants at the end of the day - A normal thing with plants getting the proper light intensity. Very normal in the outdoor sun!

For cause - search up Light saturation point in C3 plants....

No, I don't do hydro, I'm just hand watering my plants . I nute at the beginning of lights on and plain water before lights off.

I agree that outdoor that's the normal plant behaviour simply because water potential is pretty much even/balance. So, there's hardly any fluid movement in the absence of photosynthesis. But there is movement no matter how liitle, after all, plant transpire at night through whatever osmotic force is available.

What I'm doing is merely increasing that osmotic pressure available to the plants by manipulating water potential.

Why? Turgor Pressure. I try to maintain that pressure within my plants cells. At lights off, turgor pressure goes down and the cells shrinks again. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, that's just botany

By maintaining constant turgor pressure (cell elongation/swelling), it speeds up and strengthen cellular structure. The plant will require more nutes and carbohydrates to speed up the activation of hormones, enyzmes, and the energy needed to strengthen the cells and reproduction of new cells.

The plant becomes like a race car instead of just a regular car.

And the best indicator are the leaves, if it droop at lights off then to me it indicates it's losing turgor pressure and that's like putting a brake in the cellular development.

 

[OldMedUser]

I got 4 strains all getting close to chopping and only one has leaves that are always up and praying. It's a sativa dominant but they are all but one plant hybrids with at least half sativa genes. They all seem happy tho.

 

[Xs121]

I got 4 strains all getting close to chopping and only one has leaves that are always up and praying. It's a sativa dominant but they are all but one plant hybrids with at least half sativa genes. They all seem happy tho.

I'm curious, that one plant that is always up and praying, is there any difference with the other 3 plants? In terms of plant vigor, yield, etc..

Also, is the medium for that plant, holding more water compared to the other 3? I have 2 plants, one is a Sativa dom and the other is an Indica dom both of them have their leaves up at lights off.

Thanks

 

[OldMedUser]

I'm curious, that one plant that is always up and praying, is there any difference with the other 3 plants? In terms of plant vigor, yield, etc..

Also, is the medium for that plant, holding more water compared to the other 3? I have 2 plants, one is a Sativa dom and the other is an Indica dom both of them have their leaves up at lights off.

Thanks

It's actually all the plants of that strain. It doesn't really have a name yet as it's one of my own crosses that started with a Cali Mist mom and a Northern Lights #5 dad. I called that cross Northern Mist. Still had a 12 -14 week flowering time so I tried crossing that with LowRyder #1 to see if I could reduce the flowering time and maybe get an auto I liked. None of them autoed and I revegged a couple of the better ones that accidentally got knocked up by an auto called Purple Jem so I ended up with about 300 seeds from that boo-boo. I grew out 6 of those to hunt for autos but only two did and both were males so I saved pollen from those and dusted branches on the four females that went under 12/12 light for flowering. All 4 were showing way more pre-flowers than any regular plants I've ever grown so it was like they were close to being autos but not quite there. One of the four turned hermie so I tossed the seeds from that one and haven't grown out any of the seeds yet from the other three.

I sprouted a whole bunch of the seeds from the first cross and 20 from another cross a friend made from LSD and Blueberry, (Lone Star Blue Heaven), to do a SoG type grow with multiple plants in 2.5gal pots. The BH are almost ready but the no name will be at least 2 weeks if not 4 behind those. As they were all grown from seed and not real stable each plant will have to be cropped at peak time as determined by myself.

I also have 5 OG#18 and 1 Purple Kush that are in 4gal pots and getting close to the finish as well. They were clones gifted by a friend so my first time with those.

The medium for both the no-name and the BH is exactly the same and the BH does have praying leaves too but not as pronounced as the other.

One of the no-name girls.

 

[Budley Doright]

No, I don't do hydro, I'm just hand watering my plants . I nute at the beginning of lights on and plain water before lights off.

I agree that outdoor that's the normal plant behaviour simply because water potential is pretty much even/balance. So, there's hardly any fluid movement in the absence of photosynthesis. But there is movement no matter how liitle, after all, plant transpire at night through whatever osmotic force is available.

What I'm doing is merely increasing that osmotic pressure available to the plants by manipulating water potential.

Why? Turgor Pressure. I try to maintain that pressure within my plants cells. At lights off, turgor pressure goes down and the cells shrinks again. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, that's just botany

By maintaining constant turgor pressure (cell elongation/swelling), it speeds up and strengthen cellular structure. The plant will require more nutes and carbohydrates to speed up the activation of hormones, enyzmes, and the energy needed to strengthen the cells and reproduction of new cells.

The plant becomes like a race car instead of just a regular car.

And the best indicator are the leaves, if it droop at lights off then to me it indicates it's losing turgor pressure and that's like putting a brake in the cellular development.

Have you actually documented an increase in growth rate doing this? It's an interesting concept and would be curious to seee if there is any measurable difference. Not that I pay much attention really but this is the first time I've actually noticed a huge droop, so much so that I got a tad worried when I started noticing it but all seems fine. I'll have to see what they look like now that they've been under 12/12 for 5 weeks. I flood the same schedule through the lights off as well be it good or bad, any thoughts?

 

[Dr. Who]

No, I don't do hydro, I'm just hand watering my plants . I nute at the beginning of lights on and plain water before lights off.

I agree that outdoor that's the normal plant behaviour simply because water potential is pretty much even/balance. So, there's hardly any fluid movement in the absence of photosynthesis. But there is movement no matter how liitle, after all, plant transpire at night through whatever osmotic force is available.

What I'm doing is merely increasing that osmotic pressure available to the plants by manipulating water potential.

Why? Turgor Pressure. I try to maintain that pressure within my plants cells. At lights off, turgor pressure goes down and the cells shrinks again. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, that's just botany

By maintaining constant turgor pressure (cell elongation/swelling), it speeds up and strengthen cellular structure. The plant will require more nutes and carbohydrates to speed up the activation of hormones, enyzmes, and the energy needed to strengthen the cells and reproduction of new cells.

The plant becomes like a race car instead of just a regular car.

And the best indicator are the leaves, if it droop at lights off then to me it indicates it's losing turgor pressure and that's like putting a brake in the cellular development.

The ebb part was for the OP. I should have @ him in.

Interesting theory, well, maybe not so much......I got questions for you.

How big a pot.
How much at feed and at straight water are you applying?

Where did you come up with this "theory" of watering at night? I understand your "idea"...... yet the application is not really the best plan....

Drop us a pic of a plant....

I make my plants into race cars and never have to "water" at night. I gotta see if your over watering.
If your feeding enough at lights on - to carry it till the next day at lights on. You get no loss of anything.
You seem to have a knowledge of book learning, and yet you don't seem to understand night and day functions of the plant exactly right.

You also let the "Light saturation point in C3 plants", slip over your head.

Your idea is no more then an incorrect logic experiment. Your not increasing shit and your not really increasing turgor pressure at night by watering again......Wonder what the condition of your roots are...

Have you actually documented an increase in growth rate doing this? It's an interesting concept and would be curious to seee if there is any measurable difference. Not that I pay much attention really but this is the first time I've actually noticed a huge droop, so much so that I got a tad worried when I started noticing it but all seems fine. I'll have to see what they look like now that they've been under 12/12 for 5 weeks. I flood the same schedule through the lights off as well be it good or bad, any thoughts?

I'll bet dimes to dollars he thinks he has. I'll bet pennies to dollars it's far from true.

Personally, Hell no I wouldn't flood at night. Your not accomplishing anything!

In fact Budley, if your flooding at night, and your seeing no increase in anything.. Goes to answer your question if he's gotten an increase in his growth rate ...... eh?

With out the sun and photosynthesis occurring, the plant, any plant, has a natural loss of turgor at night. Increasing available moisture to the soil/roots, does not increase the turgor pressure within the plant.....at any rate your idea is used for.

Bottom line to both of you.
If the plant gets enough moisture from the media. It's not going to loose turgor (or hydrostatic) pressure for anything but natural reasons, that can be explained by plant biology....

If what you propose were true. You would have one of the most stretched out lanky plants, and how is that a good thing?
Why? Because turgor pressure is responsible for apical growth in plants - Terminal bud (the central main over branching) and root tips). This would be (if anything) the growth increase he would see.

 

[Xs121]

The ebb part was for the OP. I should have @ him in.

Interesting theory, well, maybe not so much......I got questions for you.

How big a pot.
How much at feed and at straight water are you applying?

Where did you come up with this "theory" of watering at night? I understand your "idea"...... yet the application is not really the best plan....

Drop us a pic of a plant....

I make my plants into race cars and never have to "water" at night. I gotta see if your over watering.
If your feeding enough at lights on - to carry it till the next day at lights on. You get no loss of anything.
You seem to have a knowledge of book learning, and yet you don't seem to understand night and day functions of the plant exactly right.

You also let the "Light saturation point in C3 plants", slip over your head.

Your idea is no more then an incorrect logic experiment. Your not increasing shit and your not really increasing turgor pressure at night by watering again......Wonder what the condition of your roots are...



I'll bet dimes to dollars he thinks he has. I'll bet pennies to dollars it's far from true.

Personally, Hell no I wouldn't flood at night. Your not accomplishing anything!

In fact Budley, if your flooding at night, and your seeing no increase in anything.. Goes to answer your question if he's gotten an increase in his growth rate ...... eh?

With out the sun and photosynthesis occurring, the plant, any plant, has a natural loss of turgor at night. Increasing available moisture to the soil/roots, does not increase the turgor pressure within the plant.....at any rate your idea is used for.

Bottom line to both of you.
If the plant gets enough moisture from the media. It's not going to loose turgor (or hydrostatic) pressure for anything but natural reasons, that can be explained by plant biology....

If what you propose were true. You would have one of the most stretched out lanky plants, and how is that a good thing?
Why? Because turgor pressure is responsible for apical growth in plants - Terminal bud (the central main over branching) and root tips). This would be (if anything) the growth increase he would see.

I'll try to answer your questions/points as best as I can.

1. I'd like to reiterate again that I'm not an expert cannabis grower and you're right about the book knowledge. I've spent 5 years in college to get my agricultural engineering degree (too many books in fact ). My field experience is limited to 17 years of commercial crop production specializing in sugar canes. So when it comes to cannabis, I don't know shit after all this is just a personal grow for me and my wife (who suffers from fibromygalia). In fact, I grow in the closet. When it comes to plants in general I may know a thing or two but I never claim that my method is the best nor I'm the expert to growing plants.

I'll glady share what I do, it's entirely up to the reader/listener to assimilate or not to assimilate the information received If you deemed it as illogical then so be it but I'll continue what I do. .

2. I've actually posted pics of my plants at 3 weeks of 12/12 WITH a tape measure that shows its only around 2 feet in height (after stretching, imagine that ) https://www.rollitup.org/t/nug-size.941421/#post-13557883 So there goes your assumption of lanky plant up in smoke.

3. you said "With out the sun and photosynthesis occurring, the plant, any plant, has a natural loss of turgor at night"

Have you asked yourself why it loss turgor pressure at night? Oh wait because that's how it works in nature so therefore its natural. That's real science there. Why don't you explain to me why the plant losses turgor at night in real science, I'm willing to listen, maybe I'll learn something new.

4. you said " Increasing available moisture to the soil/roots, does not increase the turgor pressure within the plant.....at any rate your idea is used for."

I'm not going to argue you with this because you're not backing your point with explanation. But here's an abstract of a scholarly study, you might learn something new. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17241998

5. Yes I saw that light saturation on c3 plants which confuses me honestly. What are you trying to say? That light saturation via photosynthesis effect turgor pressure? Of course it does but that's during day/lights-on, we're talking here about drooping leaves at night aren't we not?

6. I'm using 6" rockwool cube to finish my plants (I choose this because I'm lazy and rockwool is the easiest to maintain). I started with 2" then buried it in 4" and now it's in 6". Can hardly see my roots, it's air pruned all the way., all I see are dense fibrous root hairs at the top and all 4 sides. So I'll hazard a guess that my roots are pretty dense inside the rockwool.

7. Over watering a rockwool? There goes again your assumption. I suggest you research growing in rockwool, not hydro. The only way you can overwater a rockwool is by submerging it in water or let it set it sit in water for a prolong period of time.

* I think that's pretty much about it, right?

Ohh pics...

On its 5th week of 12/12

Again just a little over 2 feet high

And yeah, you can see how thick the branches are. There's no weak branch in that plant. Granting the trunk and branches are not as big as that of hydro, the trunk is about 3/4 of an inch. So I say, the roots are pretty darn good to supply what the plant needs. For its size (I intentionally want a compact plant because of my grow space), I say maintaining turgor pressure at night paid off but that's just my experience.

Lastly, I'll repeat it again, I'm no expert in cannabis. It's entirely up to you guys to use the info I share or not. I't not a holy grail. But, I noticed that some members of this forum are so defensive and seems like the holy grail themselves.

I think, I've put enough time to this, time for me to light up a joint.

p.s. I dont know how to post a link, so you might cut and paste the link

 

[Budley Doright]

My plants are in net pots and roots are free hanging so I would be worried about not flooding all night even though I'm sure they would be ok. The root mat is now about 5" thick so it does hold quite a bit of moisture.

 

[Dr. Who]

@Xs121, posted

I'll try to answer your questions/points as best as I can.

1. I'd like to reiterate again that I'm not an expert cannabis grower and you're right about the book knowledge. I've spent 5 years in college to get my agricultural engineering degree (too many books in fact ). My field experience is limited to 17 years of commercial crop production specializing in sugar canes. So when it comes to cannabis, I don't know shit after all this is just a personal grow for me and my wife (who suffers from fibromygalia). In fact, I grow in the closet. When it comes to plants in general I may know a thing or two but I never claim that my method is the best nor I'm the expert to growing plants.

Hmm, another guy with long term "woody" plant growing as a job. I did MSU and then ran a 10 acre greenhouse complex while in school. Flowers (seasonal) and tropical's. Tropical's were most shipped in and maintained till sale. This was for a big florist shop and they covered grocery store blooming plant/tropical sales for the southern part of my state.

Then took a job with a major drug company running their Yew bush farm for Taxol (cancer drug) production. Several actual locations and huge plant counts....

I'll glady share what I do, it's entirely up to the reader/listener to assimilate or not to assimilate the information received If you deemed it as illogical then so be it but I'll continue what I do. .

Oh but, that's the point - Please do what works for YOU!

2. I've actually posted pics of my plants at 3 weeks of 12/12 WITH a tape measure that shows its only around 2 feet in height (after stretching, imagine that ) https://www.rollitup.org/t/nug-size.941421/#post-13557883 So there goes your assumption of lanky plant up in smoke.
Missed that post - Looked now and see the pics below. You think your "pruning" doesn't have anything to do with your overall plant size? left to it's own with no removing anything, that the plant wouldn't be lanky?

3. you said "With out the sun and photosynthesis occurring, the plant, any plant, has a natural loss of turgor at night"

Have you asked yourself why it loss turgor pressure at night? Oh wait because that's how it works in nature so therefore its natural. That's real science there. Why don't you explain to me why the plant losses turgor at night in real science, I'm willing to listen, maybe I'll learn something new.

In the plant of subject. The "droop" of leaves in daytime. Is simply the plant reacting to closed stomata to retain moisture in the highest time of transpiration. IF there is sufficient moisture available - it can be far less visible but, does still happen.

At night this is explained as natural circadian lowering of the leaves due to reduction of osmotic pressure. Thus a reduction in turgor. Some of our strains will not express this as well as others but, it's still occurring.


4. you said " Increasing available moisture to the soil/roots, does not increase the turgor pressure within the plant.....at any rate your idea is used for."

If, you've watered properly. (No matter your media) Your not going to loose turgor in any percentage that will effect growth factors at night. I have points on Rockwool about this and your method but, will save them till that point

I'm not going to argue you with this because you're not backing your point with explanation. But here's an abstract of a scholarly study, you might learn something new. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17241998

Mmm. They're looking at woody C3 plants. While ours is not a woody plant, many things can and some not be compared. The study brings up plants in a soil situation and high moisture content of. Our plant does not react well to high moisture soil applications.


5. Yes I saw that light saturation on c3 plants which confuses me honestly. What are you trying to say? That light saturation via photosynthesis effect turgor pressure? Of course it does but that's during day/lights-on, we're talking here about drooping leaves at night aren't we not?

Well, yeah, not the best example for the point I'm trying to make. You have an education, so that is not needed to lay the groundwork for explaining - Sorry to assume your level of education....my bad!

6. I'm using 6" rockwool cube to finish my plants (I choose this because I'm lazy and rockwool is the easiest to maintain). I started with 2" then buried it in 4" and now it's in 6". Can hardly see my roots, it's air pruned all the way., all I see are dense fibrous root hairs at the top and all 4 sides. So I'll hazard a guess that my roots are pretty dense inside the rockwool.

Lets combine this with the next one...

7. Over watering a rockwool? There goes again your assumption. I suggest you research growing in rockwool, not hydro. The only way you can overwater a rockwool is by submerging it in water or let it set it sit in water for a prolong period of time. (put an air pump outlet stone in that container and it'll stay fine - you knew that too. Not baiting)

You know, I saw you say rockwool and I guessed ebb trays because that's how I used it and No, your not really going to over-water rockwool, how do you over-water hydroponics?

If your feeding - watering on a schedule that keeps the rockwool moist. You won't get droop, at least the droop the OP is asking about......I bet your "watering" right before lights out? You don't get up in the middle of the night to keep watering it right?

Earlier I said to another member that all he had to do was hit the RW right before lights out to carry it to the mourning. That same thing applies to you.
I understand your feeling that your getting benefits from continued high turger. But I can't see that actually doing that. In reality, isn't what we learned in school telling us that growth can be described as an irreversible increase of volume. And yet there exist two types of growth: growth by division and elongation.

Cells capable of division contain usually no or only very small vacuoles, while cells going to elongate have full-size vacuoles and therefore the capacity of maximal water uptake. Is this not a good beginning explanation of "the stretch" in early bloom?

Now these elongation cells have an elasticity to them - correct? Elasticity is based upon the ability to deposit new wall material in a stretched cell wall, thus stabilizing the condition. Osmotic pressure changes exert differing forces on surrounding cell structure and can be seen as expression of "movement".....In time the cell structure become more permanent and less elastic as the plant grows out.....

How is a properly watered or plant in hydro or any application, losing turgor anyway?

I think that's pretty much about it, right?

Ohh pics...

On its 5th week of 12/12

Again just a little over 2 feet high

And yeah, you can see how thick the branches are. There's no weak branch in that plant. Granting the trunk and branches are not as big as that of hydro, the trunk is about 3/4 of an inch. So I say, the roots are pretty darn good to supply what the plant needs. For its size (I intentionally want a compact plant because of my grow space), I say maintaining turgor pressure at night paid off but that's just my experience.

Lastly, I'll repeat it again, I'm no expert in cannabis. It's entirely up to you guys to use the info I share or not. I't not a holy grail. But, I noticed that some members of this forum are so defensive and seems like the holy grail themselves. I'm not ever going to say "expert"...... Will mention I've grown this plant for over 4 decades

I think, I've put enough time to this, time for me to light up a joint.

p.s. I dont know how to post a link, so you might cut and paste the link - easiest way


NICE PLANTS!.....I might not "defoliate" near as much as you have! You'll do better that way vs. the amount your doing now....

??? I never said anything about weak branching in anything. ???

I most certainly respect experience and what comes from it! Just don't see how you think your benefiting by the small amount of osmotic pressure happening by circadian change, and your watering sched.

May I ask what strain(s) your wife is liking for her FM? Just interested as we have patients with the same thing. We use a strain I built with higher CBD and lower THC for a patient that wanted that lower THC thing..... Ther are others we rotate them on - No tolerance build up...


Nice to speak with you...

 

[OldMedUser]

Nice healthy looking plant but doesn't look any better or worse than any other well grown plant at 5 weeks into flowering than the thousands I've seen in various forums or the few hundred I've seen in my own grow room over the years.

KISS, (Keep It Simple Stoner), is my motto and to those ends I do just that and it seems to work.

 

[Xs121]

lol

My first inclination is to make a lengthy response but I'll try to make it short.

I think we're talking the same thing when it comes to turgor pressure just different delivery.

At night this is explained as natural circadian lowering of the leaves due to reduction of osmotic pressure. Thus a reduction in turgor. Some of our strains will not express this as well as others but, it's still occurring.

Osmotic pressure is the key word. Then why not increase Osmotic pressure by manipulating water potential?

If, you've watered properly. (No matter your media) Your not going to loose turgor in any percentage that will effect growth factors at night. I have points on Rockwool about this and your method but, will save them till that point

Suffice to say you agree that if there's enough moisture in the media that you're not gonna loose turgor pressure at night. That's what I been saying all along. All I'm saying, you can make that pressure stronger even at night.

If your feeding - watering on a schedule that keeps the rockwool moist. You won't get droop, at least the droop the OP is asking about......I bet your "watering" right before lights out? You don't get up in the middle of the night to keep watering it right?

I don't recall me implying that I water in the middle of the night. I thought I posted that I nute at the beginning of lights on and pure water only(meaning no fertilizer) immediately before lights off. So you're right that the watering just before lights off, carries the plant water requirement through the night. BTW, the OP is not using hydroponics, not sure what his media is, soil or something else.

Cells capable of division contain usually no or only very small vacuoles, while cells going to elongate have full-size vacuoles and therefore the capacity of maximal water uptake. Is this not a good beginning explanation of "the stretch" in early bloom?

You associate cell elongation literally with the plant stretch. Yes cell elongation contribute to the stretch but by itself cell elongation is not really cell stretching vertically. I'm pretty sure you're familiar how a cell expand. Honestly, I dont know why I'ts termed as elongation, I would rather look at it as an expansion. There are many types of vacuoles and all cells small or big are capable of maximal water uptake.

Osmotic pressure changes exert differing forces on surrounding cell structure and can be seen as expression of "movement".....In time the cell structure become more permanent and less elastic as the plant grows out.....

Agree. And this is my point, if you have a stronger osmotic pressure then it speeds up the changes you just mentioned.

Missed that post - Looked now and see the pics below. You think your "pruning" doesn't have anything to do with your overall plant size? left to it's own with no removing anything, that the plant wouldn't be lanky?

We all used different method to control height and shorten the internodes. If we dont, our plant would be best suited outdoor. Cannabis is a shrub and shrubs can grow pretty tall if left unchecked.

However, would you believe me if i say that I only top my plants once and no pruning? Is done by using super cropping but by my modified version of super cropping and I say it works pretty good in controlling the height with very short internodes even sfater stretching.

And about the thick branches....is the result of the combination of my modified version of super cropping and constant cell elongation. So you see here that the growth pattern of this plant is not vertical and hardly horizontal as well but the growth is translated to thicker and stronger branches (to support the growing colas?).

Yes, I can manipulate the growth vertically if my grow space allows it or do a scrog horizontally (but I'm lazy), so I'll do whatever is necessary that I know how, both in theory and experience to keep the plant compact and still achieve (hopefully) maximum yield for its size.

NICE PLANTS!.....I might not "defoliate" near as much as you have! You'll do better that way vs. the amount your doing now....

Thank you. I follow a certain procedure of defoliation during the veg stage and a different defoliation method(not much) in flowering stage. Overall, I try to maintain a good leaf mass so as not to impacted (or as little as possible) photosynthesis.

I most certainly respect experience and what comes from it! Just don't see how you think your benefiting by the small amount of osmotic pressure happening by circadian change, and your watering sched

Small amount is what you're thinking. My osmotic pressure at night put my plants leaves pointing up all night. I make sure that my water potential from the root is greater than that of the plant parts bove ground and the environment.

May I ask what strain(s) your wife is liking for her FM? Just interested as we have patients with the same thing. We use a strain I built with higher CBD and lower THC for a patient that wanted that lower THC thing..... Ther are others we rotate them on - No tolerance build up...

Bagseed, I'm still apprehensive in buying well known or popular strain through the mail, not sure about the risk. I'm still trying to find locally a breeder or somebody who have an established genetics. I been wishing to get OG Kush, maybe one of this day when I'm so stoned that I get the courage to push the buy button.

Talking of FM, my wife have tried all sort of medical prescription to fight FM, even alternatives and only cannabis makes her function normal, regardless of strain (different bagseed, different sources). She's happier, and can do things that we take for granted that would put her for week/s of pain and she have better uninterrupted night sleep.

*Damn, I tried to make this short but I'm high atm.

Nice to speak with you...

You too man, regardless of our belief, I enjoy our discussion.

 

[Xs121]

Nice healthy looking plant but doesn't look any better or worse than any other well grown plant at 5 weeks into flowering than the thousands I've seen in various forums or the few hundred I've seen in my own grow room over the years.

KISS, (Keep It Simple Stoner), is my motto and to those ends I do just that and it seems to work.

Ty man. Good to know I'm doing the right thing with my plants

 

[Dr. Who]

@Xs121 lol

My first inclination is to make a lengthy response but I'll try to make it short.



I think we're talking the same thing when it comes to turgor pressure just different delivery.

Sounds right.

Osmotic pressure is the key word. Then why not increase Osmotic pressure by manipulating water potential?

In soil, I, and others don't have the option to be as moist at the same rates you do.

Suffice to say you agree that if there's enough moisture in the media that you're not gonna loose turgor pressure at night. That's what I been saying all along. All I'm saying, you can make that pressure stronger even at night.

Correct, again, us soil guys don't have same ability to the degree you hydro guys do.

I don't recall me implying that I water in the middle of the night. I thought I posted that I nute at the beginning of lights on and pure water only(meaning no fertilizer) immediately before lights off. So you're right that the watering just before lights off, carries the plant water requirement through the night. BTW, the OP is not using hydroponics, not sure what his media is, soil or something else.

That was just an example by statement: I know you didn't.

You associate cell elongation literally with the plant stretch. Yes cell elongation contribute to the stretch but by itself cell elongation is not really cell stretching vertically. TRUE I'm pretty sure you're familiar how a cell expand. YUP Honestly, I dont know why I'ts termed as elongation, I would rather look at it as an expansion. There are many types of vacuoles and all cells small or big are capable of maximal water uptake.

Yup.

Agree. And this is my point, if you have a stronger osmotic pressure then it speeds up the changes you just mentioned.

Yup.

We all used different method to control height and shorten the internodes. If we dont, our plant would be best suited outdoor. Cannabis is a shrub and shrubs can grow pretty tall if left unchecked.

However, would you believe me if i say that I only top my plants once and no pruning? Is done by using super cropping but by my modified version of super cropping and I say it works pretty good in controlling the height with very short internodes even sfater stretching.

And about the thick branches....is the result of the combination of my modified version of super cropping and constant cell elongation. So you see here that the growth pattern of this plant is not vertical and hardly horizontal as well but the growth is translated to thicker and stronger branches (to support the growing colas?).

Yes, I can manipulate the growth vertically if my grow space allows it or do a scrog horizontally (but I'm lazy), so I'll do whatever is necessary that I know how, both in theory and experience to keep the plant compact and still achieve (hopefully) maximum yield for its size.

K.

Thank you. I follow a certain procedure of defoliation during the veg stage and a different defoliation method(not much) in flowering stage. Overall, I try to maintain a good leaf mass so as not to impacted (or as little as possible) photosynthesis.

I would still leave a significant amount of fans you remove......give it shot on a run.. Lollypopping is what I do. On some strains in veg. I do remove some of the "monster" fans - blocking branching from max light. It allows/makes the branching expand out better. They do get a good bit more veg to take advantage of that.

Small amount is what you're thinking. My osmotic pressure at night put my plants leaves pointing up all night. I make sure that my water potential from the root is greater than that of the plant parts bove ground and the environment.

I think here is the point I was shooting for: At night the reduction in transpiration (yes kiddies, plants still transpire in the dark) reduces osmotic pressure and thus turgor. You are right that you can increase the osmotic pressure by increased moisture availability......I was stuck on the fact that differing methods have differing "laws" shall we say, that govern the amount of moisture in the media that can be tolerated by the plant. I do so love my soil results vs. hydro in several ways......like flavor - terp profiles.

Bagseed, I'm still apprehensive in buying well known or popular strain through the mail, not sure about the risk. I'm still trying to find locally a breeder or somebody who have an established genetics. I been wishing to get OG Kush, maybe one of this day when I'm so stoned that I get the courage to push the buy button.

What OG are you thinking? Drop me a PM..ok?

Talking of FM, my wife have tried all sort of medical prescription to fight FM, even alternatives and only cannabis makes her function normal, regardless of strain (different bagseed, different sources). She's happier, and can do things that we take for granted that would put her for week/s of pain and she have better uninterrupted night sleep.

I understand this perfectly!

*Damn, I tried to make this short but I'm high atm.



You too man, regardless of our belief, I enjoy our discussion.


I thinkst we be on the same page now!!!

OH, and btw. your paper linked, is only the abstract.....if you really want the whole thing. There is a friend on here that still has his post grad access......I'll have to PM him and ask but, you can have the whole paper if you like.

 

[Love Headies]

Drooping of plants at the end of the day - A normal thing with plants getting the proper light intensity. Very normal in the outdoor sun!

For cause - search up Light saturation point in C3 plants....

Very cool! I love this forum I learn something new every day. So do you think that when they droop at the end of the day they don't need or want anymore light? I just figured it was like when we get ready for bed we wind down.
Smoke a nice fat bowl and sit on the couch watching tv and mellow out. I noticed that my plant does this but, not always at the same time. Sometimes she starts shutting down early and other times right before the light goes off.

 

[Dr. Who]

Very cool! I love this forum I learn something new every day. So do you think that when they droop at the end of the day they don't need or want anymore light? I just figured it was like when we get ready for bed we wind down.
Smoke a nice fat bowl and sit on the couch watching tv and mellow out. I noticed that my plant does this but, not always at the same time. Sometimes she starts shutting down early and other times right before the light goes off.

It's the transpiration levels being reduced to conserve moisture in the plant - it's not able to up-take the increased needs by the light intensity delivered. This reduces osmotic pressure and thus turgor. To a degree.
The plant is also changing on the cellular peptide level to protect it's self from the intense light. This further reduces actions by the plants as some of the energy is directed towards this cellular change.

At night the plant "retrurns" the cells peptide action to early daytime normal's. The whole thing starts over again....

There are many factors to when this happens and the actual "start" of this is earlier in the day, than many think... 30%+ reductions in actual plant "growth" is the result.
The use of Co2 is a way of delaying that action and recovering that lost percentage......

Science is fun..eh?

 

[Love Headies]

It's the transpiration levels being reduced to conserve moisture in the plant - it's not able to up-take the increased needs by the light intensity delivered. This reduces osmotic pressure and thus turgor. To a degree.
The plant is also changing on the cellular peptide level to protect it's self from the intense light. This further reduces actions by the plants as some of the energy is directed towards this cellular change.

At night the plant "retrurns" the cells peptide action to early daytime normal's. The whole thing starts over again....

There are many factors to when this happens and the actual "start" of this is earlier in the day, than many think... 30%+ reductions in actual plant "growth" is the result.
The use of Co2 is a way of delaying that action and recovering that lost percentage......

Science is fun..eh?

Wow! Yes I agree science is fun. One of my favorite subjects. I think I almost got this. So what your saying in laymen terms is at the end of the day the water pressure so to speak is low. This is from the long days work of transpiration. Since the plant can only hold so much water and at some point much shut down in a manner of speaking and get refilled.
At night the peptide level is reduced because it is not needed. Before the light comes on the leaves start raising up of building pressure back up and return peptide levels back to were they need to be.
I understand now why this leaves drooping before lights out is not always at the same time. If the osmotic pressure drops too low 2 hours before lights out then that is when she will droop. I guess it is like a gas gauge. When you see your gas is running low it doesn't matter how far along in the trip you are it needs to be refilled.

Since learning more and reading more in this forum I have to say this is one impressive plant. I mean all plants are amazing but, understanding a little of the science really brings things into perspective. It makes them seem even more amazing.