Tangerine_
Well-Known Member
PM has become the new "Flush" debate........
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Powdery Mildew
- Thread starter Invisighost
- Start date
chemphlegm
Well-Known Member
1)- I dont buy grapes or apples for the last 14 years, I grow my own, fungicide use on these commercial items never concerned me.
2)- I didnt try to make anyone look like a fool Norby. I didnt say "its just for turf maintenance, the msds from EAGLE 20 does say turf management though, as well as a couple other commercial crops, (mentionable- none that are not smoked, no tobacco.)
3) The use of unapproved fungicides on medical marijuana crops is scary. nobody knows who is applying the shit, or how or when, just that it works=thats scary to me, and should be to patients too. Grapes and apples get rained on with uv daily, marijuana often goes seed to sack without seeing any rinsing, this is scary to me. I dont use any of this shit recall, so using any of it is scary biz to me.
Can you show me the post where I said "I am better than you" ? I dont recall ever saying that to anyone in my life, sorry for any misunderstanding. I am an organic style gardener. One must expect recoil when defending the use of approved or not fungicides they put on their medical marijuana for patients right?
I dont use any of it. I dont take in clones. I dont need to, never did, never will. that doesnt make me better than anyone. it does save me money, hassle, controversy, judgement, and allows me to sleep well. There are none of these products used on our farm apples, grapes, berries, veggies, etc. We free range our animals and ourselves.
by any standards marijuana grown without the use of pesticides fungicides insecticides is going to be healthier to the human organ when consumed. Its going to be preferred by consumers. Growers using these items indoors are often plagued while growers not using them report a different experience. I love mine, gonna keep on keeping on.
peace out
Norby Grown
Well-Known Member
See, that's misinformation. You have never researched the use of it so you think it's worse than yours since there was eagle 20 used on it at some point in it's life when brought in to quarantine. That's your opinion not fact, so until you educate yourself on the topic could you not paint me in a bad light because of your bias? It's not by any standard that mj grown without the use of fungicides will be healthier on the human organ, whatever that means. If there is no detectable residue it is NO DIFFERENT than plants grown organically. And growers using these items indoors are not "often plagued". There was no "different experience" reported by my patients or me when I used the eagle 20 to rid myself of PM and save my strains. None knew the difference when I switched to the batch that had been sprayed.
See you do think your MJ is better than mine, you just said it outright. Just because you've never used eagle 20.
And no, one doesn't have to "expect" recoil when people are educated to how they work. Look up the amount to cause any problems in mice and look at the amount to be added to 1 gallon of water to spray plants. It's not even a carcinogen.
See, again you are putting me into a category that people who prophylacticly spray chems with no regard. If there is residue of sprays left then yes, there is an added element to judge. But if there is NO machine or person who can detect that eagle 20 was ever sprayed on the plant then it is no different.
You may not want to offend but you can't say what you're saying without offending. If you don't want to use them great but looking down on others who know what they are doing IS condescending no matter how you want it to come across. You said by ANY standards yours is better than mine cause it was sprayed. And I knew that was what you were getting at with the turf management phrase.
Of course organic is going to be preferred by customers if they don't trust the grower or know how any pesticides or fungicides work. Organic cyanide is still much more toxic than eagle 20. I'd rather have my plants sprayed with eagle 20 than organic ricin.
natureboygrower
Well-Known Member
sorry,im not following.have you deliberately run moldy bud through an extraction and looked for spores in your concentrate? thats what i gathered from the info concerning botrytis making it into your final extract.
chemphlegm
Well-Known Member
my oil has never molded.
if keif is stored wet it will mold, it has some plant material in it.
I had outdoor bud rot once, I discarded the rotten cola. I cant use moldy weed for anything. Without proper micron filtration moldy bits would remain in the oil after extraction. Butane/alcohol will not rid fungus spores, might kill them though.
natureboygrower
Well-Known Member
yeah,i agree with you then.i think its a common misconception that moldy weed can be used for oils.i do use a buchner funnel setup with DE and carbon,i wonder if that would "catch" the mold.i dont run moldy weed in my extractions anyways,may be an interesting experiment though
chemphlegm
Well-Known Member
1) Eagle 20 is toxic to the human organ. No studies have been presented showing it is safe and legal for cannabis applications, or any smoked consumable for that matter in our country. it is in fact banned from use for many consumable products. It remains illegal to use on cannabis.1). You have never researched the use of it so you think it's worse than yours since there was eagle 20 used on it at some point in it's life when brought in to quarantine.
2)That's your opinion not fact, so until you educate yourself on the topic could you not paint me in a bad light because of your bias?
3)It's not by any standard that mj grown without the use of fungicides will be healthier on the human organ, whatever that means.
4)If there is no detectable residue it is NO DIFFERENT than plants grown organically. And growers using these items indoors are not "often plagued". There was no "different experience" reported by my patients or me when I used the eagle 20 to rid myself of PM and save my strains. None knew the difference when I switched to the batch that had been sprayed.
5)See you do think your MJ is better than mine, you just said it outright.
6)And no, one doesn't have to "expect" recoil when people are educated to how they work.
7)See, again you are putting me into a category that people who prophylacticly spray chems with no regard. If there is residue of sprays left then yes, there is an added element to judge. But if there is NO machine or person who can detect that eagle 20 was ever sprayed on the plant then it is no different.
If you don't want to use them great but looking down on others who know what they are doing IS condescending no matter how you want it to come across. You said by ANY standards yours is better than mine cause it was sprayed.
9)Of course organic is going to be preferred by customers if they don't trust the grower or know how any pesticides or fungicides work.
10)Organic cyanide is still much more toxic than eagle 20. I'd rather have my plants sprayed with eagle 20 than organic ricin.
Cannabis that has not been treated with Eagle 20 is a healthier choice to smoke than cannabis that has been treated with it. I stand by this statement with all available info including EAGLE 20 msds guidelines. I bet here is nobody in this forum that would prefer to smoke mold free eagle 20 treated marijuana than mold free NON eagle 20 treated. we could conduct a survey if you think differently?
2- it is fact, and is not to put shade on you but to put light on products grown organic style
3-It is hands down well known that consumables using (approved or not) fungicides are less healthy for the human organ than consumables that do not use fungicides. This means that those chemicals do specific harms to the human organ as stated on the msds sheets. use, applications, clean up, etc are well explained. Indoor gardening, indoor applications on medical marijuana crops with Eagle 20 is dangerous, ask eagle 20, they will say the same thing, as will every state testing lab today.
I'm not saying that its not safe for you to use Norby, I'm saying its not safe for me to use Eagle 20, every state in the US, eagle themselves, and every marijuana grower I've known agreed till you. You could end up being right while they were wrong who knows. I read about a turf treatment, ornamental, not for tobacoo, etc....then ounces per acre used, petroleum distillates...this is plenty nuff info for me to know I cannot put this on my marijuana, I cant even have it on my property. Instead I've done everything within my power to prevent fungi outbreaks and it has worked since 2008. with controls available, habits adjusted, etc....seems liek a logical choice for an indoor grower concerned with health, toxins in the enviro, etc. If I ever see mold I will discard plants, I can see it no other way. If I told my patients I used it they would leave me and I dont blame them, as I've expressly promised not to.
4) Plagued with issues= yes, in fact growers here reporting issues with fungi mention mites and gnats and more= growers are often plagued with issues when they are using chems in the garden.
5) check this out; I bring two jars of identical meds
come to the table with a sign over the contained meds
one says 'EAGLE 20-applied by my friend Norby (with msds/epa/fda displayed for education)
the other says- No EAGLE 20 has ever been used.
which do you think would be sample more by patients? voted better by those sampling?
6) NO state lab will accept eagle 20 in their medical marijuana. At no level is this chemical accepted for indoor use on cannabis.
isnt about personal convincing at this point. Of every paper I read this chem is forbidden on cannabis and even tobacco. why worry challenge it? its bad stuff, no matter how its used, bad for the applicator, bad for the consumer, bad for the environment, bad for skin contact( call poison control immediately(msds), banned completely by some states even. why question that? for a few moldy plants in a room? not me. you may end up correct, it may be healthier to consume marijuana treated with eagle20 someday..but
I dont recall any fungicide being called toxic but later found to be good for humans in agriculture.
7) No, you are mistaken. I know well you say you used it one time years ago and never needed it again. You noticed no differences and your patients didnt care that you used eagle 20. I never said you use it as a preventative.
8,9,10) see #5, I'm not being condescending, you must realize one person among millions of growers is saying "hey I used eagle 20 on patient meds and it didnt matter, and here's some of the reasons I think it is safe". I wont use it, and I would suggest if you do to keep it a secret from beginner growers. Now they flock to the grow store and can buy that little no named home mixed bottle from them. wtf norby? this isnt right.
some growers rely on their crops for income and not just a hobby. when they see mold in late flower they are inclined to use whatever it takes to, and now they see norby saying heck this shit is fine if used right, and right, is decided by me, because the world says it isnt right to use on cannabis, but I find them to be so wrong? these and most will fail to ever see beyond their choice, why would they, when they find what works, make it work, its a human condition.
since there is no organic certification for cannabis yet I chose to use the phrase organic style. right down to the rubber in my watering hoses man. is it organic? no of course not. but there are no chems used and thats the point. trust? of someone selling you something? mmmkkkk they choose to avoid chems. I'd be hard pressed to trust my grower if he's using banned chems on marijuana, and thats got nothing to do with you= you are not my supplier, I hold no judgement against you and you said you do not use this chem anymore.
if you wish to debate organic vs non organic we can use another thread. stick to points, nobody uses ricin on their marijuana, organic or not. organic does not mean safe to eat, or safe to spray, or safe to use, I think you know that. There are many organic compounds that should not be used on indoor consumables. Interestingly though...many have been used in the production of fungicides, miticides and insecticides in history and to now.
I cant debate the safety of eagle 20 because its not fair. every state, epa, fda won the deal, they tested it too, they tested for residue, even in tobacco I suspect, and still it is not approved.
be safe
Norby Grown
Well-Known Member
You are confusing used with able to tell it has been used. If there are no residues then there isn't a difference between using it and not. If it doesn't show up in tests then it would be sold outright in ANY dispensary in the country because even though it isn't approved it also isn't denied if it has been used and isn't detected, right?
Everyone is responsible themselves for what they do with their crops. I never advocated using it in flower, if someone does then its on them. Being religious about it and lying to people like they did with MJ being Sched 1 doesn't do any good, only bad, I think you can agree with that?
And what I'm trying to do is let people know it is safe to use so that, like Odin here said, most clones being traded, since they aren't going to stop trading clones, can be cleaned before being brought into a grow with a potent tried and true chem so that newbies don't bring the shit into their grow in teh first place and have to treat with anything, even neem to save their flowering grow. I think we both want people to use less chemicals on crops and by using them on newly acquired clones and then taking cuttings off of them and then you have 2 months or more in veg before even going into flower and the clone sprayed is only 6 inches hi. All teh new growth is grown with out ever having been subjected to spraying with anything. So actually, by telling the truth I'm trying to limit the amount of pesticides and fungicides used. Wouldn't u rather have people acting like me and using a drop to spray new clones rather then people spraying entire gardens using a whopping 2ml per gallon?
People would choose the organic because of conditioning and not knowing how much was used when. If they were educated on safety and how the person used it they'd not care which they got. Because they would know there is nothing detectable, even in the PPB range.
And you are eating and smoking insecticides and fungicides everytime you smoke if your weed has any terpenes in it, it just happens to be natural. Some chemicals made by man can be just as safe
The gov't allows crap in your food that is harmful. I don't think they are a good gauge of anything. Humans don't research much and act as sheep and synthetic chemicals get a bad rap since they are overabundant in everything we eat and breath. It makes people biased and fearful of anything they don't know about. I don't think that test is a good gauge of anything. If there is no eagle 20 left to be detected then it's the same as organic at that point.
And yes you are throwing me in with the haphazard sprayers making that statement about it being a turf product. Everyone who uses chemicals is NOT the same and you said mj that has had eagle 20 sprayed on it somehow does harm to the body. Not if it isn't there anymore. Pour a glass of fukushima radiation water into the ocean and I'm not swimming there today. Wait a month and it's dissipated and safe to swim in, get my drift?
And you are not going to shut me up by shaming me. People need to learn the truth and use this or something similar to be able to not have to use it a lot. People aren't going to stop trading clones. So don't think that lying to people and shaming people will get them to stop using chemicals, they'll just use them without telling anyone. We definitely don't want that.
So what you are describing is paranoid bias and not the truth about preventing PM. You can think whatever you want but using the gov't guidelines and people's uneducated fears to "prove" something is only going to perpetuate bad practices cause people aren't going to do it just like you, they are lazy. I wish they would but that's just not going to happen and I'd like to try and save a few sprayings and unknowing patients by laying out a best practice to avoid PM by spraying in quarentine while the plants are still small and the amount of chemicals used are the smallest possible.
Everyone is responsible themselves for what they do with their crops. I never advocated using it in flower, if someone does then its on them. Being religious about it and lying to people like they did with MJ being Sched 1 doesn't do any good, only bad, I think you can agree with that?
And what I'm trying to do is let people know it is safe to use so that, like Odin here said, most clones being traded, since they aren't going to stop trading clones, can be cleaned before being brought into a grow with a potent tried and true chem so that newbies don't bring the shit into their grow in teh first place and have to treat with anything, even neem to save their flowering grow. I think we both want people to use less chemicals on crops and by using them on newly acquired clones and then taking cuttings off of them and then you have 2 months or more in veg before even going into flower and the clone sprayed is only 6 inches hi. All teh new growth is grown with out ever having been subjected to spraying with anything. So actually, by telling the truth I'm trying to limit the amount of pesticides and fungicides used. Wouldn't u rather have people acting like me and using a drop to spray new clones rather then people spraying entire gardens using a whopping 2ml per gallon?
People would choose the organic because of conditioning and not knowing how much was used when. If they were educated on safety and how the person used it they'd not care which they got. Because they would know there is nothing detectable, even in the PPB range.
And you are eating and smoking insecticides and fungicides everytime you smoke if your weed has any terpenes in it, it just happens to be natural. Some chemicals made by man can be just as safe
The gov't allows crap in your food that is harmful. I don't think they are a good gauge of anything. Humans don't research much and act as sheep and synthetic chemicals get a bad rap since they are overabundant in everything we eat and breath. It makes people biased and fearful of anything they don't know about. I don't think that test is a good gauge of anything. If there is no eagle 20 left to be detected then it's the same as organic at that point.
And yes you are throwing me in with the haphazard sprayers making that statement about it being a turf product. Everyone who uses chemicals is NOT the same and you said mj that has had eagle 20 sprayed on it somehow does harm to the body. Not if it isn't there anymore. Pour a glass of fukushima radiation water into the ocean and I'm not swimming there today. Wait a month and it's dissipated and safe to swim in, get my drift?
And you are not going to shut me up by shaming me. People need to learn the truth and use this or something similar to be able to not have to use it a lot. People aren't going to stop trading clones. So don't think that lying to people and shaming people will get them to stop using chemicals, they'll just use them without telling anyone. We definitely don't want that.
So what you are describing is paranoid bias and not the truth about preventing PM. You can think whatever you want but using the gov't guidelines and people's uneducated fears to "prove" something is only going to perpetuate bad practices cause people aren't going to do it just like you, they are lazy. I wish they would but that's just not going to happen and I'd like to try and save a few sprayings and unknowing patients by laying out a best practice to avoid PM by spraying in quarentine while the plants are still small and the amount of chemicals used are the smallest possible.
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Norby Grown
Well-Known Member
You are wrong, anything that hasn't been tested on something is banned from being used on it. Show me where ANY of these agencies tested eagle 20 on tobacco. They have to have an extra layer because the residue is being smoked. No one has done the studies for an acceptable level. What I'm saying is that no level is acceptable and saying it is gone by 8 weeks the way I use it. Your misinterpretation of banned is the root cause though you are correct you can't debate safety because you haven't researched but you are making an overt declaration on safety even though you aren't qualified.
chemphlegm
Well-Known Member
you said honesty is the best policy concerning unapproved use of fungicide in the medical mj indoor garden. I agree. the bulk of clones are likely privately traded and their growers/buyers are most often plagued with issues like mold and mites regardless of their treatments and dips to this day they make threads daily. Even the ones that use fungicides have to keep doing it. gotta wonder why.
and think about it. If given the choice above, between treated and untreated...it really wont matter what remains except the truth. both buds have no mold and one has been eagle 20'd...patients would decide on untreated buds hands down, thats my point.
If I used this eagle 20 and told my patients upfront they would not stay with me. thats good enough without any further thought. I wouldnt try to convince them that I did it safely so they would stay, I wouldnt argue with the epa/fda/and eagle 20 themselves concerning its use. I 'd feel dumb trying to sell that to my patients. I know some dont care I get it, and I bet we smoked much worse in the previous decades but now I have a choice. Its one more of my consumables that I have total control of. I can swear no chems were used in the production of any veggie, marijuanas, chickens, pigeons, ducks or fish on this property. Its a badge I wear, its important to me to do this, one by one, produce all of what I consume without the use of any sprays/treatments. If I had indoor garden mold that I couldnt get rid of without fungicides I'd stop growing indoors. thats just me I get it. I have to stay true to what I believe. I live what I speak all the way. for consideration- I didnt invent a non mite/non mold indoor grow space, I learned how to build it from someone else who had no need for chems. I set those controls, followed some guidelines like never take in clones, dont rub on other growers, no strangers inside, etc....and it worked. it worked for him, it worked for me and two others he shared with too. its a bad ass program and it is successful without chems so far. he wont even share clones, only seeds, just like me
Norby Grown
Well-Known Member
First off, I have not advocated using it anytime in flower, that gives 8-12+ weeks. From other people I've talked to it's between 5-6 weeks indoors till it's undetectable. I know from one test it's not detectable after 8 weeks. And teh amount detectable even 4-5 weeks in is PPB. There is no chemicals in food or tobacco as far as I know that they test to that small of a level for safety. 2ml per gallon for over 12 or so plants is less than what they fed rats every day for a few weeks before they detected problems. It's used in such small amounts that it's not going to be found to be much of a problem. Just because green labs detected it on some crops doesn't mean that it would've been even remotely harmful to people. It's scare tactics because people don't look at proportions detected and there aren't any studies on that small of an amount.
natureboygrower
Well-Known Member
my thoughts as well.probably why i have an unopened box of azamax on the shelf.(a whole other can of worms im not trying to open)
chemphlegm
Well-Known Member
“If you smoke it, if you heat it,” Land explains, “it produces a chemical call hydrogen cyanide. It’s very toxic to humans.”
That’s exactly why the federal government prohibits the use of Myclobutanil on tobacco, but California currently has no such pesticide rules when it comes to medical marijuana.
In a statement to KPIX 5, Dow AgroSciences — the manufacturer of Eagle 20 — said the fungicide has not been approved for and should not be used on marijuana.
“Dow AgroSciences, without exception, will not seek regulatory approvals or support the use of its products on marijuana,” the statement read. “Eagle 20 is not approved for use nor should it be used under any circumstances on marijuana.”
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/02/06/bay-area-marijuana-tests-positive-for-toxic-fungicide/
I dont need to be qualified to know using a petroleum distillate and a product that turns to hydrogen cyanide on my herbs meant for smoking/vaping probably is not a good idea aye?
chemphlegm
Well-Known Member
Ok, so all the labs in the world, fda, epa, eagle 20 and their producers say dont use this on cannabis...and you say there is no definitive test available to you to show residue and it can be used safely... why in the world would anyone count on your experience when deciding to use or not to use an unapproved fungicide on an indoor mj garden ?
chemphlegm
Well-Known Member
In China, eagle 20 is used on tobacco. The only country that tells us its ok...... but lead paint is used on kids' drinking glasses, melamine in their baby food, so, yeah.. dont smoke china baccy I guess, if thats important to you.
Norby Grown
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you got some paranoid patients. Mine knew my quality for 2 years and had no problems trusting me and didn't want me to run out for a few montsh because tehy'd have to go elsewhere and they'd rather have me be truthful than go back to a dispensary.
If they have to use it over and over it's because tehy're dirty. Even then I'd rather have them using eagle 20 weekly if tehy are just selling clones cause a small clone will be 8 weeks till enough clones are taken and it's wegged and another 8 weeks of flower, I know damn well tehre is nothing left after 16 weeks and I know all teh clones I cut are from new growth and never even had eage20 in them.
But what gets me is the people who spray as a preventative, even organics. Which is why I said if oils near the walls and u use hepa filters then you don't have to worry about PM. I preach preventative all teh way, minus spraying with things and using full sprays only in veg and only to save strains.
You are right people would choose unsprayed but that doesn't mean anything other than preference. I don't care about them because my patients will never leave me because of quality and they know I'd only use sprays in the safest ways and only if needed. I'm not worried about what people who aren't buying from me think. It has no influence on reality, it's just what "they" think.
Like I said I wish more people did it like you but the reality of it is that they don't and won't. So I'd like to shine light on the subject so people can be more transparent and make better choices. If someone tries organic(which the guy who gave me the pm clone had been trying to get rid of it organically for over 2 years!) and it doesn't work and they keep passing it around because they spray weekly and think they have it under control, they only spread and create more problems. The reason I tried eagle 20 is because teh guy I got it from had been trying organic methods(multiple) for a long time. I didn't want to screw around with my patients supply.
If they have to use it over and over it's because tehy're dirty. Even then I'd rather have them using eagle 20 weekly if tehy are just selling clones cause a small clone will be 8 weeks till enough clones are taken and it's wegged and another 8 weeks of flower, I know damn well tehre is nothing left after 16 weeks and I know all teh clones I cut are from new growth and never even had eage20 in them.
But what gets me is the people who spray as a preventative, even organics. Which is why I said if oils near the walls and u use hepa filters then you don't have to worry about PM. I preach preventative all teh way, minus spraying with things and using full sprays only in veg and only to save strains.
You are right people would choose unsprayed but that doesn't mean anything other than preference. I don't care about them because my patients will never leave me because of quality and they know I'd only use sprays in the safest ways and only if needed. I'm not worried about what people who aren't buying from me think. It has no influence on reality, it's just what "they" think.
Like I said I wish more people did it like you but the reality of it is that they don't and won't. So I'd like to shine light on the subject so people can be more transparent and make better choices. If someone tries organic(which the guy who gave me the pm clone had been trying to get rid of it organically for over 2 years!) and it doesn't work and they keep passing it around because they spray weekly and think they have it under control, they only spread and create more problems. The reason I tried eagle 20 is because teh guy I got it from had been trying organic methods(multiple) for a long time. I didn't want to screw around with my patients supply.
you said honesty is the best policy concerning unapproved use of fungicide in the medical mj indoor garden. I agree. the bulk of clones are likely privately traded and their growers/buyers are most often plagued with issues like mold and mites regardless of their treatments and dips to this day they make threads daily. Even the ones that use fungicides have to keep doing it. gotta wonder why.
and think about it. If given the choice above, between treated and untreated...it really wont matter what remains except the truth. both buds have no mold and one has been eagle 20'd...patients would decide on untreated buds hands down, thats my point.
If I used this eagle 20 and told my patients upfront they would not stay with me. thats good enough without any further thought. I wouldnt try to convince them that I did it safely so they would stay, I wouldnt argue with the epa/fda/and eagle 20 themselves concerning its use. I 'd feel dumb trying to sell that to my patients. I know some dont care I get it, and I bet we smoked much worse in the previous decades but now I have a choice. Its one more of my consumables that I have total control of. I can swear no chems were used in the production of any veggie, marijuanas, chickens, pigeons, ducks or fish on this property. Its a badge I wear, its important to me to do this, one by one, produce all of what I consume without the use of any sprays/treatments. If I had indoor garden mold that I couldnt get rid of without fungicides I'd stop growing indoors. thats just me I get it. I have to stay true to what I believe. I live what I speak all the way. for consideration- I didnt invent a non mite/non mold indoor grow space, I learned how to build it from someone else who had no need for chems. I set those controls, followed some guidelines like never take in clones, dont rub on other growers, no strangers inside, etc....and it worked. it worked for him, it worked for me and two others he shared with too. its a bad ass program and it is successful without chems so far. he wont even share clones, only seeds, just like me
Norby Grown
Well-Known Member
Chem, u yourself posted there is more hydrogen cyanide in MJ smoke than tehre is in tobacco smoke, naturally, not from any residues left on plants. and I'd like to do the chemistry math and find out how much more hydrogen cyanide would be in a joint with the ppb found on some of these samples. You may get 3-10x as much hydrogen cyanide naturally from smoking MJ than you would with 100ppb eagle 20. remember 2ml/gallon and only 19% of that 2mls is myclobutanil.
Of course dow is going to say not o use it on MJ, really, you think they'd say any different? More out of context propaganda.
Of course dow is going to say not o use it on MJ, really, you think they'd say any different? More out of context propaganda.