Coots mix problems

[genuity]

I definitely saw a recipe calling for 1 cup a cf for the amendments. So you were using 8 cups a cf of the mineral mix? Did you purchase the mineral mix from buildasoil or make it yourself?

I left the mineral mix the same & yes from build a soil.

I mix the mineral mix with worm casting,and let sit for a day or so..it gives the mineral mix something to hold on to...so to say.

 

[Wetdog]

Thanks wet, 2 tbl a gallon it is! I'll do a little test. 2 plants transplanted into same soil nothing added, 2 plants transplanted into same soil with lime and 2 plants transplanted into same soil with lime and fish bone meal. On a good note they seemed to have perked up a bit from the watering..but I'm for sure looking into new mixes hell I might even go with ol Jacks and promix next round

I've used the same basic mix for around 45 years now (peat moss, perlite, pne bark fines, lime), and it works equally well with Jack's Classic or organic amendments.

With that as a constant, it's easier to tell the effects of different amendments and/or amounts for your particular situation. Recepies are not a "one size fits all", but a starting point and you need to find your particular sweet spot.

I can tell you, the most important thing you could do, is start a worm bin. That is a game changer in any organics grow, way beyond anything you can buy. Really.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Hey everyone any help is appreciated. Growing in coots mix, 1/3 peat moss,perlite and quality compost with worm castings. 1/2 cup each kelp,neem and crustacean meal per cubic foot and buildasoils mineral mix.

Plants were started in 1 gallon pots and are 18 days old. I've watered twice with an ewc tea and kelp meal with aloe. Temps are between 70 and 80 with 60rh. Tap water is around 8ph and 110ppm.

Plants have been growing more slowly recently. Some have gotten yellow and the leaves are very droopy. I'm also noticing some brown spots on lower leaves. Yellowing tends to be towards the top of the plant but on one its all over.Symptoms kinda seem like overwatering but I've only watered twice and their not underwatered because the soil is still moist. Also the light makes them look more yellow then they really are but they are still a bit yellow.

something looks off in that mix.

I agree visually they do look to be overwatered, what method are you using to see if they need water?
dipping the finger, lifting the container?
one thing I like to utilize is a mix with different types and sizes of aeration, if I were to make an educated guess i'd say that when you water them, you're doing it too fast/all at once, this will settle the soil when it doesn't have a big enough root system to keep it's structure, what that does is makes the compost and peat sink while the perlite floats.
that essentially "clogs" the bottom drains.
is the color of the soil at the drain holes at the bottom the same as the top, when you water?
if the soil is still moist 24 hrs after watering it's likely the mix is retaining too much water.
organic soils do that.
leads to acidic conditions, nutrient lock-out, rotting roots, etc.
also your plants are pretty big for only being 18 days old
what light are you using?

 

[dubekoms]

something looks off in that mix.

I agree visually they do look to be overwatered, what method are you using to see if they need water?
dipping the finger, lifting the container?
one thing I like to utilize is a mix with different types and sizes of aeration, if I were to make an educated guess i'd say that when you water them, you're doing it too fast/all at once, this will settle the soil when it doesn't have a big enough root system to keep it's structure, what that does is makes the compost and peat sink while the perlite floats.
that essentially "clogs" the bottom drains.
is the color of the soil at the drain holes at the bottom the same as the top, when you water?
if the soil is still moist 24 hrs after watering it's likely the mix is retaining too much water.
organic soils do that.
leads to acidic conditions, nutrient lock-out, rotting roots, etc.
also your plants are pretty big for only being 18 days old
what light are you using?

Thanks for the info greasemonkey. So at first I was definitely watering them wrong. I kinda just took a cup and dumped it onto the soil, didn't take my time. I can judge fairly well when they need water I just do the finger test and also lift the container to see if it feelin light. I'm also noticing way more perlite at the top than at the drainage holes so that's probably not helping. The soil seems to drain fairly well though, its dry on the top after 24 hours. I seriously followed coots mix to a T, it's exactly the same recipe I see on buildasoil and other sources. And ya haha they WERE growing very fast at first...faster than anything ive grown before. Its a t2-2100 from tasty led. Runs at 167 watts, cobs..
the whole shabang. It was a great investment...but I probably should've gotten something cheaper until I figure out how to grow healthy plants lol young and dumb I guess

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Thanks for the info greasemonkey. So at first I was definitely watering them wrong. I kinda just took a cup and dumped it onto the soil, didn't take my time.--~

yea, that's why I mentioned it man, and like I said what happens is that the soil settles, and all those finer particulates float up because of the soil tension and then drain down, to the bottom, and the sides, the first like 5 waterings after transplant are absolutely crucial to the plant's performance. the first being the most important
people hear/read me saying the same things over and over and the reason is because it's simply overlooked, sooo many times the underlying issue is either improper watering techniques or improper soil construction. In fact a whooole lot, if not the majority of the problems, I see on this site are from this alone.
here is possibly THE best link to some information regarding the "whys and hows"

http://organicsoiltechnology.com/subsrtates-and-soils

you can have absolutely nothing wrong with the actual soil ingredients, but given incorrect aeration/drainage and it'll look like shit, and the problems manifested are the same ones that nutrient imbalance/deficiency/toxicity/ph deal with, and in fact are often the same thing. but it's the "chicken-before-the-egg" thing... being that the wet conditions are whats causing those conditions to begin with. No matter how much you try to feed, or adjust the ph

I always check via lifting the container and also dipping the finger.
you want no difference in the feel of the soil from the top to past the second knuckle.

I also like to visibly verify that the soil color at the bottom drain holes are the same color as the surface, which indicates that they are both the same moisture.

if you suspect the soil at the bottom is too dense for it to drain well then you'll either need to transplant again or you can sorta make it a lil better if you get a bamboo skewer to poke holes through the dense soil to aerate it. (not ideal but can salvage a soil mix)
I also like to use a fan to gently circulate the air at the containers themselves.

sounds stupid but if you don't have a lot of plants to water I highly recommend using a big turkey baster to do the initial watering each time, I water the edges first and work towards the middle, do this to remedy any surface tension issues you'll likely have when let them dry out.

in my experience cannabis hates wet feet, and really likes to dry out in between waterings, I typically have the best results when I allow them to be roughly a day away from going limp, that's right... they like to be very very dry in between waterings
wet/damp soil does SO many bad things for these plants, from rotting the roots, to making the soil acidic, to attracting the wrong anaerobic bacteria/microbes that hinder the beneficial microbes, so on and so on.

 

[dubekoms]

yea, that's why I mentioned it man, and like I said what happens is that the soil settles, and all those finer particulates float up because of the soil tension and then drain down, to the bottom, and the sides, the first like 5 waterings after transplant are absolutely crucial to the plant's performance. the first being the most important
people hear/read me saying the same things over and over and the reason is because it's simply overlooked, sooo many times the underlying issue is either improper watering techniques or improper soil construction. In fact a whooole lot, if not the majority of the problems, I see on this site are from this alone.
here is possibly THE best link to some information regarding the "whys and hows"

http://organicsoiltechnology.com/subsrtates-and-soils

you can have absolutely nothing wrong with the actual soil ingredients, but given incorrect aeration/drainage and it'll look like shit, and the problems manifested are the same ones that nutrient imbalance/deficiency/toxicity/ph deal with, and in fact are often the same thing. but it's the "chicken-before-the-egg" thing... being that the wet conditions are whats causing those conditions to begin with. No matter how much you try to feed, or adjust the ph

I always check via lifting the container and also dipping the finger.
you want no difference in the feel of the soil from the top to past the second knuckle.

I also like to visibly verify that the soil color at the bottom drain holes are the same color as the surface, which indicates that they are both the same moisture.

if you suspect the soil at the bottom is too dense for it to drain well then you'll either need to transplant again or you can sorta make it a lil better if you get a bamboo skewer to poke holes through the dense soil to aerate it. (not ideal but can salvage a soil mix)
I also like to use a fan to gently circulate the air at the containers themselves.

sounds stupid but if you don't have a lot of plants to water I highly recommend using a big turkey baster to do the initial watering each time, I water the edges first and work towards the middle, do this to remedy any surface tension issues you'll likely have when let them dry out.

in my experience cannabis hates wet feet, and really likes to dry out in between waterings, I typically have the best results when I allow them to be roughly a day away from going limp, that's right... they like to be very very dry in between waterings
wet/damp soil does SO many bad things for these plants, from rotting the roots, to making the soil acidic, to attracting the wrong anaerobic bacteria/microbes that hinder the beneficial microbes, so on and so on.

Yeah I definitely screwed up the first couple of waterings but I think I got it down now. I just use pump sprayer and take my time. Water the surface for a couple seconds to let it soak in and expand and then I go in and spray each pot for 2-4sec intervals until there is a little bit of runoff.
My hop plant is outside in the same exact soil in a 10 gallon pot and is doing amazing. Its been so rainy here this year I really haven't had to water it that much. I'm pretty hopefully that when I transplant soon these guys will start bouncing back. The new growth is coming in decent so I'm not freakin out anymore.

 

[kratos015]

yea, that's why I mentioned it man, and like I said what happens is that the soil settles, and all those finer particulates float up because of the soil tension and then drain down, to the bottom, and the sides, the first like 5 waterings after transplant are absolutely crucial to the plant's performance. the first being the most important
people hear/read me saying the same things over and over and the reason is because it's simply overlooked, sooo many times the underlying issue is either improper watering techniques or improper soil construction. In fact a whooole lot, if not the majority of the problems, I see on this site are from this alone.
here is possibly THE best link to some information regarding the "whys and hows"

http://organicsoiltechnology.com/subsrtates-and-soils

you can have absolutely nothing wrong with the actual soil ingredients, but given incorrect aeration/drainage and it'll look like shit, and the problems manifested are the same ones that nutrient imbalance/deficiency/toxicity/ph deal with, and in fact are often the same thing. but it's the "chicken-before-the-egg" thing... being that the wet conditions are whats causing those conditions to begin with. No matter how much you try to feed, or adjust the ph

I always check via lifting the container and also dipping the finger.
you want no difference in the feel of the soil from the top to past the second knuckle.

I also like to visibly verify that the soil color at the bottom drain holes are the same color as the surface, which indicates that they are both the same moisture.

if you suspect the soil at the bottom is too dense for it to drain well then you'll either need to transplant again or you can sorta make it a lil better if you get a bamboo skewer to poke holes through the dense soil to aerate it. (not ideal but can salvage a soil mix)
I also like to use a fan to gently circulate the air at the containers themselves.

sounds stupid but if you don't have a lot of plants to water I highly recommend using a big turkey baster to do the initial watering each time, I water the edges first and work towards the middle, do this to remedy any surface tension issues you'll likely have when let them dry out.

in my experience cannabis hates wet feet, and really likes to dry out in between waterings, I typically have the best results when I allow them to be roughly a day away from going limp, that's right... they like to be very very dry in between waterings
wet/damp soil does SO many bad things for these plants, from rotting the roots, to making the soil acidic, to attracting the wrong anaerobic bacteria/microbes that hinder the beneficial microbes, so on and so on.

Noticed this same issue with my grow to a lesser extent, also using coot's mix. I realized too late that my smart pots weren't lifted up off the floor enough to allow for proper drainage, I'm also thinking I'll go with 40% aeration as a whole next time I build a soil mix. I watered with a damn hose nozzle after transplanting, so I definitely fucked up there as well.

I do have a question for you though. I've always heard that it's good to keep the soil consistently moist as the microbes thrive better in a slightly moist environment very similar to an earthworm, is this not true? The reason I ask is because I've been looking into using Blumats for raised beds on my next project. I've seen a lot of people getting great results from their blumats and raised beds and they compare it to an earthworm bin or a compost pile, the Blumats don't constantly keep the soil saturated but rather moist instead.

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is what is your take on Blumats? I don't really see how any man/woman could possibly keep the soil perfectly moist like a Blumat system can. Is the drying of the soil recommended because most people aren't capable of keeping a raised bed as moist as a worm/compost bin? I've heard many experienced people (including yourself) mention that drying the soil a tad in between watering is best for cannabis, but I've also heard that microbes thrive better in a consistently moist environment. Does this drying of the soil have a negative affect on the population of your microbes or do you top dress with EWC/compost so often that the effects of that are mitigated?

Very much curious to hear what your thoughts are, I've been thinking raised beds and Blumats would have incredible results and have seen them in various grow journals. However I do also know of your experience in organics as a whole and am quite interested in your response.

Hope I'm not thread jacking

 

[kratos015]

Yeah I definitely screwed up the first couple of waterings but I think I got it down now. I just use pump sprayer and take my time. Water the surface for a couple seconds to let it soak in and expand and then I go in and spray each pot for 2-4sec intervals until there is a little bit of runoff.
My hop plant is outside in the same exact soil in a 10 gallon pot and is doing amazing. Its been so rainy here this year I really haven't had to water it that much. I'm pretty hopefully that when I transplant soon these guys will start bouncing back. The new growth is coming in decent so I'm not freakin out anymore.

I recall reading in Coot's/MountainOrganic's thread on Grasscity about multiple people swearing by their Chaplin (I think?) sprayers and how they are the absolute best for watering with. If the Blumats prove to do more harm than good I'll likely end up going with this route as well. Some incredibly knowledgeable people on that thread and pretty much all of them exclusively used those sprayers to water the pots for the exact reasons that greasemonkey pointed out. I'm feeling like a bit of a moron for not having picked one up from the get go, but live and learn.

Do you plan on finishing them in the 1g pots or will you be transplanting them soon? I had similar problems to you, but that was at around week 5 from seed and was because the girls were ready for more dirt. Once I transplanted and hit them with some aloe, coconut water, and kelp they all took off. Then around week 6 of flower I started getting the same issues again. I'm thinking what greasemonkey said about soil compaction and improper watering is what my issues were, because I never had issues until the girls got rootbound.

Watering in itself is a damn science in organics/living soil. It can be pretty tricky to dial in your watering with organics and many people have this issue at first, but once it's dealt with the results are nothing short of phenomenal. That's exactly why I'm looking into Blumats for my watering though. I love organics because it allows me to put the soil in charge of the plants and the soil has always done a much better job than I ever could Just has me thinking though, if I allowed my soil to be put in charge of the watering regime as well with the Blumats then I can only imagine the results.

 

[dubekoms]

I recall reading in Coot's/MountainOrganic's thread on Grasscity about multiple people swearing by their Chaplin (I think?) sprayers and how they are the absolute best for watering with. If the Blumats prove to do more harm than good I'll likely end up going with this route as well. Some incredibly knowledgeable people on that thread and pretty much all of them exclusively used those sprayers to water the pots for the exact reasons that greasemonkey pointed out. I'm feeling like a bit of a moron for not having picked one up from the get go, but live and learn.

Do you plan on finishing them in the 1g pots or will you be transplanting them soon? I had similar problems to you, but that was at around week 5 from seed and was because the girls were ready for more dirt. Once I transplanted and hit them with some aloe, coconut water, and kelp they all took off. Then around week 6 of flower I started getting the same issues again. I'm thinking what greasemonkey said about soil compaction and improper watering is what my issues were, because I never had issues until the girls got rootbound.

Watering in itself is a damn science in organics/living soil. It can be pretty tricky to dial in your watering with organics and many people have this issue at first, but once it's dealt with the results are nothing short of phenomenal. That's exactly why I'm looking into Blumats for my watering though. I love organics because it allows me to put the soil in charge of the plants and the soil has always done a much better job than I ever could Just has me thinking though, if I allowed my soil to be put in charge of the watering regime as well with the Blumats then I can only imagine the results.

Ive seen some amazing things done with blumats, I guess the hardest part is just dialing them in but after that you're golden. The sprayer I got is awesome. Holds 3 gallons of water, nice even spray and only cost me $25. I do plan on transplanting. I was an idiot and started way too plants for my size tent and they're all regs. So what I'm doing is topping them and quick flowering the unrooted clones , hopefully they will show sex faster as opposed to just waiting for preflowers which can take quite awhile. Once I'm sure which ones are females i will transplant...hopefully within the week.
I'm also experimenting and transplanting into different soils to see which one works the best.

 

[kratos015]

Ive seen some amazing things done with blumats, I guess the hardest part is just dialing them in but after that you're golden. The sprayer I got is awesome. Holds 3 gallons of water, nice even spray and only cost me $25. I do plan on transplanting. I was an idiot and started way too plants for my size tent and they're all regs. So what I'm doing is topping them and quick flowering the unrooted clones , hopefully they will show sex faster as opposed to just waiting for preflowers which can take quite awhile. Once I'm sure which ones are females i will transplant...hopefully within the week.
I'm also experimenting and transplanting into different soils to see which one works the best.

I wouldn't say you're an idiot at all my friend! It's just a part of the dialing in process pretty much. How dialed in you are is directly correlated with how well you know your strain. If you have any sort of unknowns, it is impossible to plan for them. If you don't know one strain is a heavy feeder and the other is a picky eater, you can't feed them perfectly. If you don't know how much they stretch in flower, you can veg them perfectly nor take full advantage of the amount of light you're working with. It is all about how much you know about your strains at the end of the day.

Since you weren't sure, you planned ahead and that's actually quite smart. As for your quick flowering plan, that is the best route to go for sure! I recommend allowing them to root first though unless you have prior experience with flowering unrooted clones (I don't so that's why I say that ).

Everything you've said sounds perfect though and things should go smoothly for you. Just keep in mind that different strains will require different things. Coots mix was great for half of my strains, the other half needed way more food though. But it's just because I've never grown any of these strains so I didn't know what to expect, now that I know I can tailor the soil to them accordingly.

Just keep in mind that no matter what, whatever it is you do yield will be quality for sure. That's what I love so much about living organic soil, it is capable of providing superb quality to growers of various experience. I haven't looked back since I started, quality is always great, however getting the yields dialed in is what gets tricky.

Do you have a journal going? Always interested in following anyone that grows with Coot's mix

 

[greasemonkeymann]

Noticed this same issue with my grow to a lesser extent, also using coot's mix. I realized too late that my smart pots weren't lifted up off the floor enough to allow for proper drainage, I'm also thinking I'll go with 40% aeration as a whole next time I build a soil mix. I watered with a damn hose nozzle after transplanting, so I definitely fucked up there as well.

I do have a question for you though. I've always heard that it's good to keep the soil consistently moist as the microbes thrive better in a slightly moist environment very similar to an earthworm, is this not true? The reason I ask is because I've been looking into using Blumats for raised beds on my next project. I've seen a lot of people getting great results from their blumats and raised beds and they compare it to an earthworm bin or a compost pile, the Blumats don't constantly keep the soil saturated but rather moist instead.

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is what is your take on Blumats? I don't really see how any man/woman could possibly keep the soil perfectly moist like a Blumat system can. Is the drying of the soil recommended because most people aren't capable of keeping a raised bed as moist as a worm/compost bin? I've heard many experienced people (including yourself) mention that drying the soil a tad in between watering is best for cannabis, but I've also heard that microbes thrive better in a consistently moist environment. Does this drying of the soil have a negative affect on the population of your microbes or do you top dress with EWC/compost so often that the effects of that are mitigated?

Very much curious to hear what your thoughts are, I've been thinking raised beds and Blumats would have incredible results and have seen them in various grow journals. However I do also know of your experience in organics as a whole and am quite interested in your response.

Hope I'm not thread jacking

sorry for the late reply my man, this summer is pretty crazy at my shop, and my broken hand is only slowing me down

alright, so I know exactly what you are thinking too, as I had/have the same thought.
repeatedly in fact..
I have been thinking very heavily on getting a blumat setup to see for myself. I am a busy guy and anything to help my grow be more automated is welcomed. it'd also be interesting to see if it's merely a problem with maintaining the "right" kind of moisture.

ok, now the whole microbe thing.. i'll preface this by saying it's just my theory, and of course that's completely based in conjecture, but considering our (humans) very very rudimentary understanding of whats really going on in the soil I can't say that anybody really knows for sure.
so we all know microbes are everywhere, and the majority of them aren't even identified yet, nor is their purpose or role.
It seems like it's sort of a misconception of cannabis growers in thinking that the microbe population can be disrupted as easily as a dry-out period, when considering how the entire process works, the way nature works, I find it hard to believe that it'd be hindered much, if at all when it happens, in fact part of me theorizes that it may in fact be a crucial part of the relationship between the plant, the soilweb and the microbial diversity in it.
however the role it plays in all of it isn't clear to me.
I believe that the moisture plays more of a role in the microbes multiplying, but in a balanced healthy soil it's not like the soil has spaces for rent type of thing, in a healthy soil the balance will be achieved rather quickly, in fact that's my concern with AACTs, in that they disrupt the balance.
please keep in mind that I simply don't know for sure, and really, nobody does, but the way I look at it is this, the amount of time that the ground is dry, which is the vast majority for most climates, the groundsoil has to maintain the soil web and microbial life in order to do anything at all, if a simple dry-out period effected soil as much as some are led to believe i'd expect to see a massive decimation of nearly all plant life when it happens.
When you think about it though, it's logical to assume that it plays a role in it all, just like pretty much every other thing in the soil.

I don't really use AACTs anymore either, with the method that I use to grow I don't see the advantage of it, in fact I speculate that frequent applications of AACTs are not only superfluous but potentially disruptive to the already "balanced" microbial life.

for the dry-out period, I simply have this conclusion on it's importance based on observation, but it's applicable to pretty much all plants, or course there are exceptions, my blueberries, ferns, and ivy prefer their soil moist, but they are acidic plants, and acidic conditions manifest themselves best in a moist soil, but my jasmine, lavender, hybrid tea roses, philodendrons, clerodendroms, bamboo, etc, etc, etc, all do much better in with a dry-out period
they all do WAY better if they get a lil dry, but it's important to remember that "dry" can be a lil ambiguous to define for some. Obviously it's fairly bad if the plant goes limp from lack of water, so unless you have a feel for it you're bound to have some do that until you get the hang of it.
I usually go for about a day away from it going limp, all the soil at the drainholes are the same color (indicating their moisture) as the surface soil.
one thing I can say for sure though, if you have a soil, especially an organic humus-heavy soil, that is consistently too moist, that condition will pretty much keep the plant from doing anything, it won't die, but it won't grow either though, and conversely if you had a plant that got too dry a couple times during the grow that condition isnt nearly as detrimental to the plant as a too wet condition is, not even close.
like I said, of course it's bad for the plant to go limp, but they rebound fairly quick from that, whereas a too dense media, or not enough aeration is nearly impossible to correct without transplanting, even given perfect watering conditions.

so essentially those reasons i stated coupled with the simple belief/theory that mother nature has finely tuned and evolved everything to work in perfect synchronization is the reason I believe this.

One thing is for certain though, for organics i'd say proper aeration may actually be the most important thing to remember.
I mean even nearly devoid pro-mix will grow a plant somewhat fine, with nearly no nutrients, and very little microbial life.
but conversely even a pimp-daddy mix with every damn expensive organic nutrient known to mankind balanced with the most perfect cation ratio, with tons of microbial diversity and fresh humus, will absolutely not grow for shit if the soil is too dense.
it's common for growers to overemphasize things like that aren't even remotely as important as aeration... spending lots of money and time on the "gadgets" while overlooking the very basics, it's actually a really common problem in regards to auto repair too, overthinking, overanalyzing and over looking the basics. I see new techs do that all the time
things like fancy bulbs, nitrobactors, mychorrizhaes, "flower" and "vege" specific nutrients and such.
admittedly those do work but the way I see it is that all that stuff shouldn't even be bothered with until you have the basics down, and verified. The law of the minimum will always be the limiting factor, and I can't for the life of me recall the last time I saw a plant that didn't grow because of something like that.
that being said I do like me some myco..

 

[kratos015]

Don't even worry about it man, I know how it goes with having too little time and I'm sorry to hear about your hand :/

While I have no personal experience with the Blumats, the results that I've seen with some people are just ridiculous. A grow journal I saw had a guy that went from 400g pots to 4x8x4 raised beds. Each bed had 2 1k vented hoods and 18 plants, 2 rows of 9. With CO2 and clones ready to go, he was only vegging for a good 2 weeks before he had to flower because he was running out of room. He had nothing to back this up other than personal experience, but his theory was that because the Blumats kept his soil mass perfectly moist then his growth rates would be directly proportional to the amount of soil he had (assuming the moisture was perfect of course). He started out in 25-30g pots, moved up to 400g pots, then went up to the 4x8x4 beds. Every time the amount of soil increased his veg time was reduced. His plant counts were pretty much the same throughout every cycle, same 9 plants per 1000w light but just in different sized containers. However the plants in the beds not only had more soil to work with, it constantly had a perfect moisture content allowing the roots access to the entire mass at their own will.

Based on the results of his personal experiences with these cycles he was theorizing that the Blumats were allowing for incredibly efficient growth at all times. 6 inch clones became 18-24 inch plants within 2 weeks with those beds, blumats, and CO2. Each bed was yielding around 5lb on average, between 4-6 lbs per 2000w of light. Nothing but no-till living organic soil, CO2, and blumats. I really wish I could find the grow journal but I forgot what the name of it was, let alone which site it was on :/ The reason I bring it up though is because he seemed to somewhat confirm the theory of the main issue with organic soil being maintaining the proper amount of moisture and aeration. I think he was running 40% aeration in his mix if I'm not mistaken, something I'm thinking I'll be doing myself to avoid the problems I've been having. I've seen a few people adopt a 40% peat, 40% aeration, 20% compost recipe and it seems to be doing well for them. Everyone puts so much emphasis on how important compost is in the soil mix so I didn't think an even 33% of each component would be an issue. However I definitely had the issues with drainage that you pointed out was a result of the compost. I'm thinking that adopting a 40/40/20 blend will help solve those issues by removing a bit of the compost as well as adding extra aeration, which would thrill the microbes I'm thinking. I'll still be able to add the same amount of compost to my mix that I normally do, I'm just thinking that it would be much better if I top dress with compost often so that I don't have to put as much in my mix.

I'd be quite interested in seeing a side by side grow to confirm all of this though. What you say about the drying out not disrupting much does make a lot of sense, there are plenty of places that don't get as much rain/water as other locations. I've always heard that most microbes will actually go dormant before they actually die off, so perhaps during the drying out period they simply go dormant until more moisture becomes available in the medium? My personal thinking (again, just theory and conjecture as well here!) is that while drying out the medium to the slight extent you're describing (just before it's 100% dry, not actually 100% dry.. kind of like with how dry we want harvested cannabis now that I think about it? ) won't completely disrupt the microbiology, it won't be as efficient. The microbes will likely just go dormant until the conditions become favorable to them, then it's business as usual again. So while that's not necessarily the end of the world in the sense that your soil is going to die, just sleeping.. but if the microbes are dormant then the soil as a whole would be yes? Wouldn't this then mean that the entire soil process would come to a halt as well until the microbes "wake up"? Or am I mistaken in my thinking?

Again, I am by no means an expert here. I have nothing to back this up other than grow journals I've seen, but what I'm starting to think is that the wet/dry cycle is only best if you aren't using something like a blumat. Unless you are able to perfectly control the moisture, wet/dry cycles seem like they would be the best option because it would avoid the issue of over-watering. Over and underwatering aren't just issues for the plants themselves, but they are major issues for a living soil as well, so for any of us growing in living soil the consequences for water related problems are two-fold. So unless one is capable of maintaining the perfect amount of moisture, a dry process would pretty much be mandatory otherwise you risk running into over-watering related consequences that you were describing earlier in the thread. Having a constantly perfect moisture content in your living soil is pretty much the only thing that is better than that watering method as far as I can tell. I immediately think of compost piles and earthworm bins and how maintaining the moisture content in both of those is also a big deal. If our living soil is perfectly moist and not too wet, the roots and microbes could all essentially have free reign over the entire mass of soil without any dry spots or root rot or any other issues. Just like how too much moisture will drown your worms or create an anaerobic compost pile, or too little will kill both entirely. It's exactly as you say though, a healthy soil is a balanced soil and I've been quickly learning that balance is the most crucial component in living organics. I doubt a simple drying period will be anything too severe just like you're saying, because you make a lot of great points for it. I mean, I live in the middle of the desert and I'm staring at quite a few trees and enormous cacti as I type this article. Plants around here pretty much only get water when monsoon season hits, then nothing. I'd say maybe 2 weeks of watering a year, maybe 3 max? Granted the cacti are used to little water, but I'm mainly getting at the microbiology that handles the plants out here. They've been rocking and rolling for years, some of these cacti over a century. So the dry periods definitely don't harm them, but of course they're used to this particular environment/climate.

These microbes have been doing their thing way before any of us and personally that's what excites me so much about the entire process of living soil. I'm no gardener or botonist, but until I discovered Subs' Supersoil I've never been able to produce quality. I too moved on to CC's mix and love the simplicity of it. The more I read into living organic soil the more I began to appreciate the entire aspect of it. A good living soil that is constantly maintained can pretty much turn anyone into a gardener, which is great for me because I've always sucked at growing my own fruits and veggies or anything But that's why organic soil is so exciting to me, anyone can do this and not just with cannabis but with fruits and veggies as well.

Everything you've said about wet/dry and not enough aeration is spot on and is something I experienced myself unfortunately. Pretty much exactly why I'm looking into 40% aeration and using blumats. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy with my results thus far but I also know things could have been so much better. I had figured that my soil was "dialed in" but it turns out more aeration was needed. I'm no genius, so the more simple I can keep things the better. Growing is no different than any other skill, someone that can master the basics to the point of making them reflex will also have more skill and potential than someone that learns just enough of the "basics" so they can become "advanced" as soon as possible. But I digress

I do also just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the AACT as well. If you built a quality enough soil and consistently top dress it with the proper quality amendments and compost then there should be no need to "jump start" the microbiology because it should already be going and maintained in the first place. I used to be all about my AACT, but they caused more problems than they solved. For one, people like to say they don't burn but if you use enough alfalfa meal or guano like I did you're going to find out the hard way they burn. I feel like my AACT not only threw off the balance of my soil, but effectively made my soil a somewhat moot point. I mean, if I'm using AACT why do I need to blend my own soil? AACT seems no different than synthetics to me in the sense that you're just using your soil as a medium to hold the nutrients you water with. No different than using the Fox Farm trio in a way because you're feeding with that and not the soil. AACT is available immediately, so if the roots are feeding from the teas what need is there to feed from the soil? I used to make teas all the time too, but the more I researched about living soil and the microbes the more I began to realize that AACT is totally unnecessary.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to me, it was very much appreciated as well as informative. I know you're a busy man so it really is appreciated.

 

[ahlkemist]

I let that shit cook for a solid month. Compost is a mix of fungal compost and ewc from https://www.makeorganicsoil.com . It was really nice dark and rich with a great smell. Good prices because I live very close to them. I've started my own piles though for next year.

Where and how was the fungal compost sourced? Fungal looks and sounds good, but in reality it's usually from commercial operations. The reason that is bad is bc the hideously enormous levels of pesticides and insecticide. If you still haven't found a proper answer to your issue consider this.

 

[greasemonkeymann]

I do also just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the AACT as well. If you built a quality enough soil and consistently top dress it with the proper quality amendments and compost then there should be no need to "jump start" the microbiology because it should already be going and maintained in the first place. I used to be all about my AACT, but they caused more problems than they solved. For one, people like to say they don't burn but if you use enough alfalfa meal or guano like I did you're going to find out the hard way they burn. I feel like my AACT not only threw off the balance of my soil, but effectively made my soil a somewhat moot point. I mean, if I'm using AACT why do I need to blend my own soil? AACT seems no different than synthetics to me in the sense that you're just using your soil as a medium to hold the nutrients you water with. No different than using the Fox Farm trio in a way because you're feeding with that and not the soil. AACT is available immediately, so if the roots are feeding from the teas what need is there to feed from the soil? I used to make teas all the time too, but the more I researched about living soil and the microbes the more I began to realize that AACT is totally unnecessary.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to me, it was very much appreciated as well as informative. I know you're a busy man so it really is appreciated.

been meaning to respond to this for over a week but have been juggling too much
so one thing worth mentioning is that if you are adding any nutrients to your AACT it'll make your results a lil less than desirable..
but it doesn't surprise me that you were unhappy with your results considering.
typically you want to keep nutrient teas and microbe teas apart, the unpredictable acidity, solubility, and availability of the nutrients makes the results allll over the place.
either way though, I do agree with you on that it simply isn't needed if you have a properly assembled soil to start with.

I don't think a consistent topdress is needed to maintain the microbial population either, doesn't mean it hurts them though, i'm just not convinced it's needed.

In regards to it's availability, it's not going to be available immediately, but, it is in fact very soluble, and therein lies my complaint, nutrients are typically acidic on their own, and being that soluble especially the guanos, the alfalfa meal is a lil quicker to become available but they both require the interaction of the microbial life to "chelate" the nutrients to a form where the plant can use it, meanwhile the unpredictable acidity and solubility can create issues in the soil.
one of the reasons I predicate the entire soil building process with a fresh source of humus, even better if you make that humus (leaf and cannabis compost) with a meal based nutrient that is available slowly over time and already ready to go by the time the compost is ready
anyways, I just felt like it could be helpful to point that out

 

[hillbill]

yea, that's why I mentioned it man, and like I said what happens is that the soil settles, and all those finer particulates float up because of the soil tension and then drain down, to the bottom, and the sides, the first like 5 waterings after transplant are absolutely crucial to the plant's performance. the first being the most important
people hear/read me saying the same things over and over and the reason is because it's simply overlooked, sooo many times the underlying issue is either improper watering techniques or improper soil construction. In fact a whooole lot, if not the majority of the problems, I see on this site are from this alone.
here is possibly THE best link to some information regarding the "whys and hows"

http://organicsoiltechnology.com/subsrtates-and-soils

you can have absolutely nothing wrong with the actual soil ingredients, but given incorrect aeration/drainage and it'll look like shit, and the problems manifested are the same ones that nutrient imbalance/deficiency/toxicity/ph deal with, and in fact are often the same thing. but it's the "chicken-before-the-egg" thing... being that the wet conditions are whats causing those conditions to begin with. No matter how much you try to feed, or adjust the ph

I always check via lifting the container and also dipping the finger.
you want no difference in the feel of the soil from the top to past the second knuckle.

I also like to visibly verify that the soil color at the bottom drain holes are the same color as the surface, which indicates that they are both the same moisture.

if you suspect the soil at the bottom is too dense for it to drain well then you'll either need to transplant again or you can sorta make it a lil better if you get a bamboo skewer to poke holes through the dense soil to aerate it. (not ideal but can salvage a soil mix)
I also like to use a fan to gently circulate the air at the containers themselves.

sounds stupid but if you don't have a lot of plants to water I highly recommend using a big turkey baster to do the initial watering each time, I water the edges first and work towards the middle, do this to remedy any surface tension issues you'll likely have when let them dry out.

in my experience cannabis hates wet feet, and really likes to dry out in between waterings, I typically have the best results when I allow them to be roughly a day away from going limp, that's right... they like to be very very dry in between waterings
wet/damp soil does SO many bad things for these plants, from rotting the roots, to making the soil acidic, to attracting the wrong anaerobic bacteria/microbes that hinder the beneficial microbes, so on and so on.

This and your last post may solve my seedling troubles that have dogged me for some time as I wet my cups very quickly a day before planting sprouted beans. Already on the way to clogged drainage! Like a bell just rang. My mix has a lot of drainage but the bottom of my seedlings are soggy and a lot of peat, wet peat. About 12 to 15 days in they start to claw and weaken quickly. Respond well to up potting with normal watering.

Thanks for the info and link!

 

[greasemonkeymann]

This and your last post may solve my seedling troubles that have dogged me for some time as I wet my cups very quickly a day before planting sprouted beans. Already on the way to clogged drainage! Like a bell just rang. My mix has a lot of drainage but the bottom of my seedlings are soggy and a lot of peat, wet peat. About 12 to 15 days in they start to claw and weaken quickly. Respond well to up potting with normal watering.

Thanks for the info and link!

absolutely my friend, i'm very pleased it helped, I've found that this simple thing is often overlooked, I've done it myself in fact, it's very easy to make that mistake.

 

[im4satori]

im new to organics (did the hydro thing for many moons)
and thanks to several peeps in this thread and on this site ive had great success in my first two organic grows

im just finishing up a round with whats close to the coats soil mix
1/3 peat, compost, perlite
8 cup rock dust and 1/2 cup azomite per cubic ft
1 cup lime per cubic ft
1.5 cups mix

mix
2part kelp
1part neem
1 part crab
1 part alfalfa
1/2 part fish

after 4 weeks cook my soil ph was still low (ph 5. 8 despite the 1/2 cup dolomite and 1/2 cup oyster shell per cubic ft) but I hadn't checked it until I began having issues with the plants

it took an additional 4 to 6 oz dolomite to get the ph up to 6.5
so all together that's 1 cup 5oz +/- per cubic ft

aside from my ph issue the entire grow went water only until half way thru bloom I added some Epsom salt a bit of potassium sulfate and guano and that's about it



when my ph was low I had similar symptoms as what you have along with some micro nute def
I ended up spraying them a couple times over a couple weeks until the lime started to work

I sprayed micro nutes from peters s.t.e.m. 0.1 grams per gallon and some Epsom salt and a little calcium at low amounts and the plants clearly responded positively

after a couple weeks the ph went up and everything went perfectly and I no longer need the foliar feeds every 4 or 5 days

im not saying you should do what I did, cuz im just learning and not skilled enough in organics to offer direction.
im just sharing my recent experience and what worked for me

it might be completely unrelated to your experience, I just thought id share

to me
just looking at the plant pics it looks like theyre asking for magnesium, calcium and maybe a wee bit of N (but that could be the light)

but I wont suggest how to correct it cuz theyres already better organic growers here than I may ever be, providing good advise and I have limited organic experience so take what I have to say with a grain of salt

 

[dubekoms]

Thanks to all the help from some awesome experienced growers my plants are finally back on track. I ended up with 4 females, threw them in a couple 15 gallon bins. I used the same soil but added some extra fish bone and neem meal. I also added dolomite lime to one of the containers. I'll shred up some leaves and mulch them tommorow.

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Seems you got most of the answers, but yeah definitely over watering in the beginning. The roots weren't able to take in nutrients being so wet constantly hence the yellowing and drooping fo leaves. When this happens a lot of new people tend to start adding amendments that aren't needed at all and compound the problems. People have already said this as well but yeah you definitely have to watch your pH in soil. Especially soil that hasn't been able to 'cook' for more than 2 or 3 months. Breaking down lime and oyster shell et cetera, is not a quick process. Same goes for rock minerals (azomite) and other things. They just don't break down as fast as manure and what not.Plants in soil like to dry out a day or too but you must be careful if your temp and humidity is not on point when doing this.

Also if your soil or compost is at all hot to the touch when you dig down in it as most bags delivered for grow season to Lowes and home depot tend to be they will burn the shit out of your plants. Always let the mix sit a month longer than you think it needs to. I mix wayyyyy ahead of time to avoid this issue.

 

[dubekoms]

Seems you got most of the answers, but yeah definitely over watering in the beginning. The roots weren't able to take in nutrients being so wet constantly hence the yellowing and drooping fo leaves. When this happens a lot of new people tend to start adding amendments that aren't needed at all and compound the problems. People have already said this as well but yeah you definitely have to watch your pH in soil. Especially soil that hasn't been able to 'cook' for more than 2 or 3 months. Breaking down lime and oyster shell et cetera, is not a quick process. Same goes for rock minerals (azomite) and other things. They just don't break down as fast as manure and what not.Plants in soil like to dry out a day or too but you must be careful if your temp and humidity is not on point when doing this.

Also if your soil or compost is at all hot to the touch when you dig down in it as most bags delivered for grow season to Lowes and home depot tend to be they will burn the shit out of your plants. Always let the mix sit a month longer than you think it needs to. I mix wayyyyy ahead of time to avoid this issue.

Yeah man, the root of it all (haha) was my watering. I simply didn't water correctly and as a result I initially over watered and later didn't moisten the whole pot and got dry pockets. I also kept them in their 1 gal pots to long waiting to sex them. I know my soil is good. I let rest for quite awhile. I think I wrote 1 month in an earlier post bit it was more like 2. The compost and worm casting were great. Not you're average garden store compost, this stuff was high quality. They're doing great now, going to flower soon.