GroErr Grows...

GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Mohican said:
I got a seed from a Humboldt grower in 1980 that was probably Hindu Kush. It was black and the size of a pea. That thing had five fingered leaves right from the start. It was the first non-sativa I ever grew. I have a Polaroid of it stashed somewhere.

Looks like you are on to something, well...big!
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That's this thing, like a small pea ffs. Will have a better look at that branch this weekend and see if they're all like that or this one's just a freak ;)
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
natureboygrower said:
hey gro,quick question,what is the minimal amount of time you would cut clones before switching to 12/12?
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Typically I'll try to cut them 2 weeks ahead of flipping if I have room, only so they're rooted before I flip and can cut some more if I got the odd dud. However, many times because of space and time I'll cut them then flip the same day/night. It's not a real stress factor Imo so it's really about timing and risk. You can always cut more after they've flipped, they just take longer to root and re-veg if you cut them more than about a week in. I have a Fireballs clone going in a cup right now that I cut 6 weeks into flowering.

For a test, I cut 2x clones off each Blue Ripper I just pulled at 8 weeks - the day I harvested them. Threw them in the cloner as I think they will root just fine, it would beat the hell out of re-vegging a whole plant space-wise. Will still have to re-veg but a party cup takes almost no space compared to a pot.
 
natureboygrower

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
GroErr said:
Typically I'll try to cut them 2 weeks ahead of flipping if I have room, only so they're rooted before I flip and can cut some more if I got the odd dud. However, many times because of space and time I'll cut them then flip the same day/night. It's not a real stress factor Imo so it's really about timing and risk. You can always cut more after they've flipped, they just take longer to root and re-veg if you cut them more than about a week in. I have a Fireballs clone going in a cup right now that I cut 6 weeks into flowering.

For a test, I cut 2x clones off each Blue Ripper I just pulled at 8 weeks - the day I harvested them. Threw them in the cloner as I think they will root just fine, it would beat the hell out of re-vegging a whole plant space-wise. Will still have to re-veg but a party cup takes almost no space compared to a pot.
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great info,much appreciated.i was really lucky with the seeds i started and went 6 for 7 on females.i had planned on searching for one mother,but i dont think i can stuff 5 plants into my flowering area.so ill keep 2 in my veg cab and flower out the rest.the problem is,is that the ones going up into flower are getting large.it doesnt sound like i should be worried to give them another topping(ive already topped and lst)let it fill in a bit and switch to 12/12? thank you for all your advice
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
natureboygrower said:
great info,much appreciated.i was really lucky with the seeds i started and went 6 for 7 on females.i had planned on searching for one mother,but i dont think i can stuff 5 plants into my flowering area.so ill keep 2 in my veg cab and flower out the rest.the problem is,is that the ones going up into flower are getting large.it doesnt sound like i should be worried to give them another topping(ive already topped and lst)let it fill in a bit and switch to 12/12? thank you for all your advice
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Yeah sounds like those are pretty well ready to flip, I'd leave them be if they're healthy and ready to go. About the only thing I try to do is give them 5-7 days after the last training or up-pot to make sure they've recovered or settled into their pots before flipping them. That's why I wouldn't recommend another topping for the one's you plan on flipping soon.
 
natureboygrower

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
GroErr said:
Yeah sounds like those are pretty well ready to flip, I'd leave them be if they're healthy and ready to go. About the only thing I try to do is give them 5-7 days after the last training or up-pot to make sure they've recovered or settled into their pots before flipping them. That's why I wouldn't recommend another topping for the one's you plan on flipping soon.
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just threw them into 3 gallons today and planned on waiting at least a week to flower.good to top? also,i built a cloner with ecoplus 396 pump,pvc and misters.do you add anything to your cloner water? ive heard some guys adding liquid kelp.im even greener to cloning then indoor growing lol.figured id practice on these tops i think i need to cut.thanks GroErr
 
InTheValley

InTheValley

Well-Known Member
GroErr said:
So just as I'm finishing up this round I'm thinking this current setup/environment is worth mentioning as I've had several phenos finish with 7 weeks, that's potentially up to one extra cycle per year if it can be replicated. Negative DIF is also something I think is beneficial if you're looking to bump up production.

Some basic environment info for the last 2 rounds (summer):
  • Temps lights on: 78-82, averaging 80F
  • Temps lights off: 78-82, averaging 80F (heat generated by dehuey maintains temps)
  • (as close as I could get to negative DIF, meaning temps same or higher lights off)
  • RH lights on: 54-58% (controlled by lights and incoming/exhausted air)
  • RH lights off: 54-56% (controlled by dehuey set @55%)
  • Incoming air: 24/7 full blast through summer
  • Exhaust: 24/7 1/3rd on variable controller
  • Main Lights: 11.5/12.5 LED COBs, Cree 3590/80cri and Citi 1212/90cri at 30w/sq/ft
  • Initiators 660nm: 12 minutes (10 min before lights on + 2 min overlap)
  • Initiators 730nm: 12 minutes (2 minute overlap + 10 minutes after lights off)

I'm not questioning negative DIF as beneficial because I've run it two summers now. Last summer I was running 12.5/11.5, this summer 11.5/12.5. Both times I noticed a good bump in production, massive donkey dicks on some of the more vigorous strains/phenos. I think one of the most if not the most important effect here is that with those temps (24/7) and maintaining RH in the mid-50 range, the plants are transpiring and drinking heavily throughout the whole round. A week into flowering and right to the end, they're probably drinking/using as much as 50% more water. Some evaporation of course would account for that but the roots are getting saturated every other day regardless of container size and bone dry within 48 hours or less. That's building great root balls and in turn bumping yields. I don't think it has a significant effect on finish times, will see coming up as I won't be able to maintain those lights-off temps through the fall/winter.

I believe the biggest factor affecting finish times has been the 11.5/12.5 reduced lights on times, along with the initiators (the combo). I've been running the initiators at 12.5/11.5, 12/12, and 11.5/12.5. They didn't seem to do much if anything at 12.5/11.5, had some effect at 12/12, but at 11.5/12.5 they seem to have reduced finish times for everything I ran in there. The only thing I have to validate is how much the initiators had to do with it, vs. the reduced cycle for the main lights. I'll do that a couple of rounds out by turning off the initiators and leaving the main lights at 11.5/12.5, with a known clone of course for control. I expect it will have an effect by a few days, nothing extreme but some effect. But the combo seems to be a winner.

Thoughts, comments, findings, questions, constructive criticism (not trolls) are all welcome. Reducing your finish times by 6-10 days per round could bring in up to an extra crop per year!
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Hey GroErr, awesome journal Bro.

What brought me here was looking for 730nm information. I will be using GrowMau Puck, and just want to make sure how to use it correctly.

So, what I gather from this post is, 11.5 hours light, and 12.5 dark? and 12 minutes 2+10, correct.? So theoretically, it just makes them finish faster due to production speed processing nutes and going to work faster, but not Time reduction as per Hours, right?

So really, its getting 14.5 hours of dark? what is the plant building process at night? I should Utube that,lol..

Thanks GroErr,
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
natureboygrower said:
just threw them into 3 gallons today and planned on waiting at least a week to flower.good to top? also,i built a cloner with ecoplus 396 pump,pvc and misters.do you add anything to your cloner water? ive heard some guys adding liquid kelp.im even greener to cloning then indoor growing lol.figured id practice on these tops i think i need to cut.thanks GroErr
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I'd skip the second topping unless you need it to manage height. I try and avoid multiple sources of stress just before the flip, you want them healthy and settled into the new pots. You just transplanted which is not necessarily stress but they'll stall for a couple of days typically. On the cloner water Ive found that changing it out once a week with plain tap water is just fine so that's how I roll. The fresh water weekly has probably made the biggest gains in success rate for me. Lots of ways to do it, I just don't add things unless it makes a big difference and have it pretty close to 100% so don't bother with any add-ons.
 
natureboygrower

natureboygrower

Well-Known Member
GroErr said:
I'd skip the second topping unless you need it to manage height. I try and avoid multiple sources of stress just before the flip, you want them healthy and settled into the new pots. You just transplanted which is not necessarily stress but they'll stall for a couple of days typically. On the cloner water Ive found that changing it out once a week with plain tap water is just fine so that's how I roll. The fresh water weekly has probably made the biggest gains in success rate for me. Lots of ways to do it, I just don't add things unless it makes a big difference and have it pretty close to 100% so don't bother with any add-ons.
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thank you groerr,you tha man! been at work most of the day but im pretty sure my timber was delivered:hump:.
thanks again
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
InTheValley said:
Hey GroErr, awesome journal Bro.

What brought me here was looking for 730nm information. I will be using GrowMau Puck, and just want to make sure how to use it correctly.

So, what I gather from this post is, 11.5 hours light, and 12.5 dark? and 12 minutes 2+10, correct.? So theoretically, it just makes them finish faster due to production speed processing nutes and going to work faster, but not Time reduction as per Hours, right?

So really, its getting 14.5 hours of dark? what is the plant building process at night? I should Utube that,lol..

Thanks GroErr,
Click to expand...
Thanks and thanks for popping in. Yeah I've tried them at (light/dark period) 12.5/11.5, 12/12, and 11.5/12.5. I found the initiators did the best at knocking down time to harvest at 11.5/12.5 and really didn't notice any reduction in yields. I like it as a happy medium between yield and finish times. There's no real standard for how long to run the 730's but most common is 10-15 minutes at lights off. I use 10 minutes + 2 minute overlap just in case the timers drift a bit.

It's difficult to say exactly what factors play the most part but the idea with the 730nm initiators is to flip them from one state to another (light-to-dark) faster speeding up pr/Pfr artificially (Google pr/Pfr for more details). It's supposed to knock off up to 2 hours in that transition state. So without extending light periods they're effectively getting an extra 2 hours per cycle. I also use 660nm at the before lights on which seems to help in their transition from dark-to-light, same idea in the opposite direction.
 
InTheValley

InTheValley

Well-Known Member
GroErr said:
Thanks and thanks for popping in. Yeah I've tried them at (light/dark period) 12.5/11.5, 12/12, and 11.5/12.5. I found the initiators did the best at knocking down time to harvest at 11.5/12.5 and really didn't notice any reduction in yields. I like it as a happy medium between yield and finish times. There's no real standard for how long to run the 730's but most common is 10-15 minutes at lights off. I use 10 minutes + 2 minute overlap just in case the timers drift a bit.

It's difficult to say exactly what factors play the most part but the idea with the 730nm initiators is to flip them from one state to another (light-to-dark) faster speeding up pr/Pfr artificially (Google pr/Pfr for more details). It's supposed to knock off up to 2 hours in that transition state. So without extending light periods they're effectively getting an extra 2 hours per cycle. I also use 660nm at the before lights on which seems to help in their transition from dark-to-light, same idea in the opposite direction.
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Thanks for your time GroErr,

Now, is there any benefit from using the puck in Veg? Do you think it might help plants steer towards being a female? Or is the sex predetermined before even germination? I know some people think Higher humidity in veg steers it to be female, but is there truth to that?

Ofcourse in veg, it need more then 12 hours light, or is it less then 12 hours light to kick flowering?
So, best to keep it at 18/6, but really, if using the puck, its getting 8 hours of sleep, benifiting more nighttime growth.

Just curious as to what your opinion, or scientific knowledge with the Puck.

Thanks Man,
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
InTheValley said:
Thanks for your time GroErr,

Now, is there any benefit from using the puck in Veg? Do you think it might help plants steer towards being a female? Or is the sex predetermined before even germination? I know some people think Higher humidity in veg steers it to be female, but is there truth to that?

Ofcourse in veg, it need more then 12 hours light, or is it less then 12 hours light to kick flowering?
So, best to keep it at 18/6, but really, if using the puck, its getting 8 hours of sleep, benifiting more nighttime growth.

Just curious as to what your opinion, or scientific knowledge with the Puck.

Thanks Man,
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Most of the benefits for those initiators relate to flowering. Not sure if there would be any benefit there, probably wouldn't hurt them. Just not sure if the investment is worth it for veg, I usually have to slow them down in veg not speed them up.

I've read some articles on giving them reds during germination to improve germination rates, but I'm not sure if that applies to pushing sex one way or another. Still out whether sex is pre-determined or can be tweaked with the environment (temps, reds). Haven't seen any proper tests and it would be a difficult test to determine the exact factors causing more or less males. With regs you don't know how those seeds would have sexed in a different or normal environment so there's no real control. You'd have to run hundreds under different environments to see any patterns/trends, not something I'd be spending room/time on ;)

Flowering is triggered by hours of dark so I don't see initiators doing anything to the point of being able to manipulate that. They simply flip them from one state to the other faster. From what I've seen anything over 10 hours of dark (14/10) will trigger some strains, somewhere around 11 hours or more (13/11) will trigger most strains.
 
Rocket Soul

Rocket Soul

Well-Known Member
Hey @GroErr

I was recomended by a member on the leds section to check you out as you might have the experience im looking for: growing withmixed HPS/white led lighting. The reason why i wanna do this is climate: i need so.e heat on the cannopy when it gets cold and cannot change the lights mid grow, and led for summertime. So hoping for a hybrid build.
But theres 200+ pages here maybe you could tell me where to start. And of course set me right if you dont grow that way. Thx
 
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