Switching to CMH on 3x6 trays... advice??

[SchmoeJoe]

You say shorter, and yet, your picture shows longer. Way longer. All everyone here shows is basically first few weeks of bloom and veg, and obviously, that's where CMH shines. Show me your week 8 with pure CMH all throughout next to LED next to HPS, same strain and everything.

And I've got a ton of experience lol. More terpenes and CBN? Show me the lab results side by side. I would find it incredible if a light moved anything more than 0.5%, as genetics accounts for 99% of the terpene profile. That shows me you dont really get your weed tested...or you would know these things. Things like the sample you send will show a different %THC based on where you take it from the plant, but terpene profile is locked to genetics.

Which commercial facilities do you know? I dont know who you're talking about when you say that that "all have been exclusively using LEC". It is honestly just laughable. Top growers grow in a greenhouse outdoors anyways, and use supplemental lighting to simulate seasonal shifts. Been that way for the last decade, so shows how much you know about commercial cannabis cultivation...im talking hectares of weed. You would think, that if CMH had such amazing results, they would be using it no?

Look up the university research that demonstrates that weed grown with UV has 20%-30% more thc. It's a well known fact, though it may be more accurate to say well established fact, that cannabis plants convert cbg into thc and cbd when exposed to UV.

To say that anything is "locked to genetics" completely disregards the fact that these traits are responses to the environment the organism evolved in. Environment is nearly as important as genetic potential.

 

[Carolina Dream'n]

I dont really like how the sunsystem has a mirror-like reflector and the phadntom uses an all hammertone reflector but i really like how it uses a phillips brand ballast thats connected to the reflector... do you think two 315s can match the two 600s yield? i feel like im going to get shafted in yield if i only use two 315s... im also curious as to what the average gpw is for cmh, like say an average/decent hps grow that most people can get is .5 gpw and a real good/dialed in one is 1 gpw, im curious (using the same strain) what cmh would be comparatively

I personally like and prefer sun systems.

Watt for watt CMH is the most efficient light. Yield per square foot it's as effecient as SE HPS, not as effecient as DE. Close though.

Example. 315 in a 3x3 space, 9 sq foot. Yields one pound.
DE 1000 in a 5x5 space, 25 sq foot, yields 3 pounds.

To get 3 lbs with 315s you'd need 27 sq foot. Only difference is it doesn't take too much skill to get 1 pound per 315 takes a lot to get 3 lbs from a 1000.

1 lb per 315 is 1.42 gpw.
3 lbs per 1000 1.34 gpw.

 

[ttystikk]

I dont really like how the sunsystem has a mirror-like reflector and the phadntom uses an all hammertone reflector but i really like how it uses a phillips brand ballast thats connected to the reflector... do you think two 315s can match the two 600s yield? i feel like im going to get shafted in yield if i only use two 315s... im also curious as to what the average gpw is for cmh, like say an average/decent hps grow that most people can get is .5 gpw and a real good/dialed in one is 1 gpw, im curious (using the same strain) what cmh would be comparatively

Mirror bounce is much better than hammer finish.

 

[thccbdhealth]

So im currently running a 4x4 tray
With a vertically hung Philips 3100k 315cmh
in a 18"x18" Nanolux fixture.
And thinking id like a little more light.
my options are adding
- another 4200k bulb, but I've been told that would be to much light.
- adding 8 citizen 1212's in a square around the cmh. 8 @15w or 25w a piece.
- with the option to change drivers are run them at 80w a piece with the cmh for 955w for total over kill as already stated I've been told 2 bulbs totaling 630w of cmh would be overkill.

 

[jronnn]

I personally like and prefer sun systems.

Watt for watt CMH is the most efficient light. Yield per square foot it's as effecient as SE HPS, not as effecient as DE. Close though.

Example. 315 in a 3x3 space, 9 sq foot. Yields one pound.
DE 1000 in a 5x5 space, 25 sq foot, yields 3 pounds.

To get 3 lbs with 315s you'd need 27 sq foot. Only difference is it doesn't take too much skill to get 1 pound per 315 takes a lot to get 3 lbs from a 1000.

1 lb per 315 is 1.42 gpw.
3 lbs per 1000 1.34 gpw.

I get what youre saying now ive just read that yield-wise the 315 is more so comparable to like 450w-500w of hps.... and if i had 3 of them on the tray i would get max intensity even if there is some wasted light on the ends, although on each table canopy sticks out like 6 inches on all sides so its more like a 6.5-7' x 4' canopy, but i guess maybe ill try 2 at first and if im not satisfied try 3

 

[Heisengrow]

Just going to ask the obvious: who told you to move to CMH? For cannabis, HPS outperforms CMH in flowering every day of the week...its supported by oodles of evidence, just ask any long time grower on here. Look at Sedan's grow in Ukraine: he uses 600W HPS. If CMH boasted better quality and yields, everyone would already have them installed.

I grow in the Emerald Triangle and have a bunch of buddies who are true masters in the field, like Subcool, whose been breeding cup winners for decades. They all use HPS indoors, and only recently have been looking into LEDs more as supplements or for veg. CMH isnt even on their radar because metal halides just dont have a good spectrum for flowering cannabis, as it has to do with the physics/wavelengths. If CMH boasted better quality and better yields, these guys would be the first to switch. The amount of free, new tech stuff they get is unbelievable.

From the few talks I've had with them on CMH, CMH is basically a slightly better MH for veg. In flowering, it does that same thing every MH does: more leaf, less flower, for an overall more chlorophyll (spicy) tasting weed, which is considered worse. Also, internodal distance increases - ever noticed how CMH grows always have tall skinny weed? That's not a desirable trait. The buds down below will get no light.

And if you want to spend money on a new light, getting a 600w/900w LED would be best from every angle. In fact, I would combine the LED with the HPS...

lol this is complete bullshit.I have done side by sides and 2 315 w cmh kicks the dog shit out of my 600 hps.that ain't reading no bullshit on the internet that is rwal.life comparisons in my grow house

 

[Heisengrow]

No need for 3 lights. Use 2. They cover a 3x3 space perfectly.

Stick with sunsystem and Phillips bulbs.

3100k from start to finish.

I told him the exact same thing on another forum

 

[Heisengrow]

I get what youre saying now ive just read that yield-wise the 315 is more so comparable to like 450w-500w of hps.... and if i had 3 of them on the tray i would get max intensity even if there is some wasted light on the ends, although on each table canopy sticks out like 6 inches on all sides so its more like a 6.5-7' x 4' canopy, but i guess maybe ill try 2 at first and if im not satisfied try 3

here is 2 315s over a 6x4 that smoked a 1000w HPS that i had 1 room over.i.pulled over 8 zips more under the cmh.this is no bullshit assumption or speculation this was real world fukin science.

 

[SchmoeJoe]

here is 2 315s over a 6x4 that smoked a 1000w HPS that i had 1 room over.i.pulled over 8 zips more under the cmh.this is no bullshit assumption or speculation this was real world fukin science.

View attachment 4028597 View attachment 4028598

And I don't see any long internodes or leafy buds either.

 

[jronnn]

here is 2 315s over a 6x4 that smoked a 1000w HPS that i had 1 room over.i.pulled over 8 zips more under the cmh.this is no bullshit assumption or speculation this was real world fukin science.

View attachment 4028597 View attachment 4028598

I told him the exact same thing on another forum

those pic looks sick and i appreciate your posts but your other response is

Today at 4:28 AM
heisenbubble I use the 3k bulb.i get way faster growth with cmh vs everything else I have.i have two 315s in a 5x3 now.i think you could get away with 2 in 3x6 but 3 would be bad ass.they 2ould kick the shit out of hps especially spread out.you will have way better coverage.i replaced a 600 watt hos with 2 315s and the 315s own that 600.

so on this post you agree with carolina that i only need two 315s for a 6x3 tray (more like 6.5x4 canopy) but you said in another post that you think i might be able to get away with two 315s but 3 would be badass because the spread. im just curious which one youre leaning more toward?

 

[Haze the maze]

those pic looks sick and i appreciate your posts but your other response is

Today at 4:28 AM
heisenbubble I use the 3k bulb.i get way faster growth with cmh vs everything else I have.i have two 315s in a 5x3 now.i think you could get away with 2 in 3x6 but 3 would be bad ass.they 2ould kick the shit out of hps especially spread out.you will have way better coverage.i replaced a 600 watt hos with 2 315s and the 315s own that 600.

so on this post you agree with carolina that i only need two 315s for a 6x3 tray (more like 6.5x4 canopy) but you said in another post that you think i might be able to get away with two 315s but 3 would be badass because the spread. im just curious which one youre leaning more toward?

With the cost of them here For Me. It's like the difference of about $1000 or $1500 so, if
$1000 will do. No need to spend $1500.
You will have light coming in two directions. I can't wait to get two going together
Heisen's grow don't lie. I hope My current grow does as well.

 

[Haze the maze]

[QUOTE="Heisengrow, post:
Hey, what height are you trying to keep with your lights? are you finding different 315 fixtures sit at different heights above the tops?
Your plants look great!

 

[Heisengrow]

those pic looks sick and i appreciate your posts but your other response is

Today at 4:28 AM
heisenbubble I use the 3k bulb.i get way faster growth with cmh vs everything else I have.i have two 315s in a 5x3 now.i think you could get away with 2 in 3x6 but 3 would be bad ass.they 2ould kick the shit out of hps especially spread out.you will have way better coverage.i replaced a 600 watt hos with 2 315s and the 315s own that 600.

so on this post you agree with carolina that i only need two 315s for a 6x3 tray (more like 6.5x4 canopy) but you said in another post that you think i might be able to get away with two 315s but 3 would be badass because the spread. im just curious which one youre leaning more toward?

I think you would do well with the 2.really depends on what medium your in and your growing ability.I grow in recirculating DWC and run Co2 so the more light the better.Im sure i could add another bulb in there but i think the extra gain for cost will be so neglible i may not even notice.I think you should start with 2 and see how it goes.If you can afford a 3 bulb setup than roll with 2.Another thing also it depends on your hood.I looked at the Phantom CMH hoods at my local shop and did not see ANY difference except a more consentrated footprint.I have a LUX app on my phone that works pretty damn good.It gives me good points of reference and i was able to compare the shops setup and only saw a more concentrated downward footprint.I was hitting over 60K LUX under his light in about a 2x2 footprint with the Phantom CMH hood.On the outside of the 3x3 you could really see the light tapering off.
I use the open reflectors.I did a shit load of research on CMH and got the ones from growers house.just the ballast and bulbs and got the adapter to put in a wing reflecter.I had an old hydrofarm hood i took the glass out of and put the CMH in to check the footprint and it just sucked.To concentrated.

I love the spectrum and footprint.I do not lose hardly any intensity on the edges in a 5.5x4.Im hitting over 42K all the way around which to me is ideal and around 50K right under the bulbs.They put out hardly any heat so i did not see the need to go air cooled.I had read alot of research that cooling the CMH will make it lose some efficiency.they aso make 2 different bulbs.The only difference is u want the non jacketed bulb in a sealed hood,cause you dont need the outer layer.Its just a protective thing in case it pops.You want the jacketed one in an open fixture.Its like a bulb inside a bulb.
Hope all this helps.
Im running 2 CMH bulbs right now over a 3x4.9 and its pretty insane.DWC autopilot and i have ran this girl before (Scotts OG) under HPS but there is just something about the CMH that i love.I did a big 12 female pheno hunt on Scotts and my Number 12 was the winner so here she is now at 25 days in flower.

And i will also say this when i ran this girl before under HPS i did not have a calcium issue.I always put 4ML per gallon of calimagic in my main bucket and top off res thats automated.I have this system down to a fucking science and this has always been the first thing i do.I did not ever run into a calcium issue untill i put her under CMH.So i think the CMH definitly puts a bigger demand on your plants and calls for higher EC and calcium.I upped the calmag to 5 ML per gallon and the problem was resolved.

 

[Heisengrow]

[QUOTE="Heisengrow, post:
Hey, what height are you trying to keep with your lights? are you finding different 315 fixtures sit at different heights above the tops?
Your plants look great!

I explain all that in my other post,Ambient heat is different than radiant.Plants can tolerate alot more radiant heat but if you have a higher ambiant and your radiant is about the same your plants are gonna fry.I aim for around 42,000 LUX on the outside some spots a little less.You can download a LUX app for a smartphone and it truly is one of my best tools i use in my grow rooms.especially when u have a point of reference.I never burn my plants when i use it.

 

[Heisengrow]

If you truly have a 4x7 i would go with 3.Put them right down the middle with over laps.The wing reflectors are cheap as shit and you can get CMH setups for about 230 dollars shipped for the whole package.So for 3 lights youll be looking at around 700 and youll be in business.I got the Prism ballast cause there is no need to dim a 315.plug em in and let em eat.I promise you when you light them up and see how fast young plants grow under them you will feel like your a fuking kid again at your first real christmas.

 

[Heisengrow]

Look up the university research that demonstrates that weed grown with UV has 20%-30% more thc. It's a well known fact, though it may be more accurate to say well established fact, that cannabis plants convert cbg into thc and cbd when exposed to UV.

To say that anything is "locked to genetics" completely disregards the fact that these traits are responses to the environment the organism evolved in. Environment is nearly as important as genetic potential.

nevermind that clown.He got called out on another thread for posting a pic that wasnt his claiming he grew it.Was the lowest of lows.Almost as bad as being a fuking rat.
Some bafoon throwing out second hand info without any real experience.Probably some kid living with his moms got like one plant under his bed with a battery operated LED

 

[Heisengrow]

1) I never said I grew the plants that were in the pic. I said that I'd been working at a friends farm where I'd seen first hand how effective Dr. Zymes is with broad and russet mites. I NEVER SAID IT WAS MY GARDEN. Get your facts straight if you're going to run your mouth about someone you don't know.

2) As far as this post you're talking about the "second" hand info is from an accredited university study. Look it up. It doesn't matter if I'm a prepubescent tween starting seeds in my sock drawer with know light to put them under or any clue how I'm going to hide them from my parents. It's public info from a credible source. No amount of ill founded, butt hurt, swollen giner bitching and shit talking about me changes the credibility of the university study findings.

That said, hopefully I haven't gone too far to the point that I may get banned. But turn about is fair play. Something tells me you're just trying to troll me now to get enough of a rise out of me that I might actually do something that will get me banned.

Just as a small example of mine this is that super low yielder that I grow for at my patients request that drives down my yield, both indoor and from one of my 12'x32' light dep greenhouses. View attachment 4029010

Wasnt talking about you man i was talking about the dude you quoted calm down.The inhibitor posted some pics on another thread that wasnt his.

 

[SchmoeJoe]

Wasnt talking about you man i was talking about the dude you quoted calm down.The inhibitor posted some pics on another thread that wasnt his.

Well shit, now I really feel like an ass. I've gotten so used to Thai stick, however he spells it, calling me out and talking smack that I finally felt the need to answer what felt like the "throwing the down of the gauntlets". My bad. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and clean up the mess I just made of this thread.

Also, in hind sight, I was wrong about saying you seemed to be trolling me. You've been nothing but decent. It's been a couple of others who've been confrontational. All I've tried to do is present information I'm confident about from my own experience or because of the credibility of the source and try to keep a dialogue going to learn what I can from others who have the answers I'm looking for and hopefully indirectly help get info I have put to people who haven't caught up to where I'm at.

So, that said, do you have any experience with the de cmh? It looks like you're on top of your game in that arena. I'm plotting on making the switch to cmh in at least one of my flowering rooms but I'm hoping to cut down the initial cost by only having to by half as many light sets.

I know that more point sources of light is more efficient because of the overlap and what would be twice as many angles of light exposure but the plan is to use the ac/de hoods. With their wide and even coverage being so much more efficient than every other hood they've been compared to (see growers house reflector comparison test) I'm hoping that the de cmh will be comparable to two se 315's so I can use that combo to balance out the lost efficiency of having half as many point sources of light. I'm only planning on using the air cooled ones so I still have the option of using the solistek mh bulbs that need be to ran with glass because they don't have an outer jacket and because they produce some uvc that has to be filtered out in the same hoods.

 

[Heisengrow]

Whats really shitty is the dude said he grew em under LED but if you find the post on 420 you can see its a sea of green and some old dude kneeling in front of the pic,and what looks like either an older CMH or some kind of weird looking HPS bulb.I mean really how fucked up is it that the inhibitor dude dogging CMH and than post a fake ass picture of a grow that he supposedly grew but turns out that grow was done under CMH.I mean for fucks sake you cant make this shit up.

 

[NugHeuser]

Well shit, now I really feel like an ass. I've gotten so used to Thai stick, however he spells it, calling me out and talking smack that I finally felt the need to answer what felt like the "throwing the down of the gauntlets". My bad. Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and clean up the mess I just made of this thread.

Also, in hind sight, I was wrong about saying you seemed to be trolling me. You've been nothing but decent. It's been a couple of others who've been confrontational. All I've tried to do is present information I'm confident about from my own experience or because of the credibility of the source and try to keep a dialogue going to learn what I can from others who have the answers I'm looking for and hopefully indirectly help get info I have put to people who haven't caught up to where I'm at.

So, that said, do you have any experience with the de cmh? It looks like you're on top of your game in that arena. I'm plotting on making the switch to cmh in at least one of my flowering rooms but I'm hoping to cut down the initial cost by only having to by half as many light sets.

I know that more point sources of light is more efficient because of the overlap and what would be twice as many angles of light exposure but the plan is to use the ac/de hoods. With their wide and even coverage being so much more efficient than every other hood they've been compared to (see growers house reflector comparison test) I'm hoping that the de cmh will be comparable to two se 315's so I can use that combo to balance out the lost efficiency of having half as many point sources of light. I'm only planning on using the air cooled ones so I still have the option of using the solistek mh bulbs that need be to ran with glass because they don't have an outer jacket and because they produce some uvc that has to be filtered out in the same hoods.

I wouldn't air cool the 630 de, its not that hot. And if you're trying to get away with less lights and more coverage you'll have to keep the light higher anyway.

Plus I believe when these bulbs are cooled they aren't as efficient.