GrowLightResearch
Well-Known Member
Actually I'm on your side. I wanted to know what @nxsov180db thought PPFD meant. All he has been doing is implying you are wrong without saying offering anything of substance himself. I know how that feels.
New light or????
- Thread starter Gorillaglue4u
- Start date
Humple
Well-Known Member
The thing you may not be considering is that a lot of the people who are making the claim that mid-power diode-based lights offer better penetration are former COB users. So they at least have personal experience on their side in this debate. Why don't you complete a grow with strips and then decide who's right?Literally, everything they are asserting is simply theory. The sun has no trouble penetrating to lower nodes, and my COBs have never failed to have dense, trichome-crusted nugs to the bottom. It sounds good on paper, and I might believe it works for some, but LED panels had multiple smaller light sources, too, and you were left with larf. It’s why I switched to COBs to begin with. Because I could see the difference in the first three days.
If what they are saying is true, my COBs couldn’t possibly perform as they do, and neither could the Sun, because it’s a single, powerful light source, so it can’t possibly get through the canopy with all the leaves in the way, blocking out the Sun by facing the same direction at once, right? Get the fuck out of here.
Leaves are meant to face a single light source. It’s what’s been going on for millions of years here on Earth. The trees have done fine, I’m sure I will be, too.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Ah. I apologize. I had just woken up from 2-3 hours of sleep, so I was grumpy and mistook you for attacking me. I’m sorry. That was more than kind of dickish.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
I already said I was going to. I argue that F-strips probably work better with a COB core. Intensity, plus multiple sources of light around the edges to open it up.
GrowLightResearch
Well-Known Member
I like this analogy. I would go with the intensity being the number of rain drops of the same size hitting a puddle. In a high intensity rain more rain drops would be hitting the puddle per second than in a lighter (less intensity) rain storm.
Mist was a great analogy for diffused light. Like the plastic over the canopy diffusing the light, a screen over the canopy would "diffuse" the rain drops into a mist.
Because light spreads out as the distance it travels increases, the number of photon hitting an area, similar to number of rain drops hitting a puddle, the light's intensity decreases.
If rain were to spread out like photons the higher the cloud drops would spread more it would and fewer of it's rain drops would would hit the puddle than a low cloud.
Now if a high cloud was dropping a lot more rain than the low cloud, the same number rain drops from high cloud may hit the puddle as the number from the low cloud. This would be the equivalent of PPFD being the same for both clouds.
Here is the tricky part to understand. Let's say the puddle was on top of a skyscraper. If there was a puddle, the same size, on the ground, how would that affect the number of rain drops hitting the puddle on the ground from each cloud? This would be the equivalent of penetration.
Same applies to the sun, and a 1000W HPS at 1 meter over the canopy vs. a fixture 12" over the canopy.. Look at the puddle on top the skyscraper as the top of the canopy and the puddle on the ground as deep into the canopy.
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Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
swedsteven
Well-Known Member
GrowLightResearch
Well-Known Member
If a light source is a few inches over a puddle with a square area of 1 m². and 2000 µmols of photons hit the puddle each second. That would be about the same number of photons from the sun hitting the puddle.
Now raise the light source to a few feet over the puddle. Much less photons will hit the puddle. But still the same number of photons (insignificantly less) would reach the puddle if the puddle were raised a few feet (to the top of the canopy).
So would that not imply it's not only the PPFD but also the distance between light source and the puddle?
A CoB emitting the same number of photons as a 4" strip would have the same number of photons hitting the canopy of a large grow area. The strip's photons would hit more plants and leaves than the CoB. The CoB would hit fewer leaves but would hit them each with more photons.
The only advantage to the strip is the photons are spread out more uniformly across more plants.
This would be an advantage if when the plants were short and the canopy thin, you could lower the strips closer to the canopy and reduce the current (intensity). Then as the plant grow you increase the distance between the strips and canopy, and increase the current/intensity while maintaining the same PPFD at the top of the canopy. This would save electricity while maintaining penetration.
Strips beat CoBs in lm/W ratio, price per lumen, and the cost of heatsinks. Otherwise it's in how they are used that makes the difference. CoBs may have more limitations in how they are used. I prefer strips over CoBs. I prefer strippers over CoBers.
Now raise the light source to a few feet over the puddle. Much less photons will hit the puddle. But still the same number of photons (insignificantly less) would reach the puddle if the puddle were raised a few feet (to the top of the canopy).
So would that not imply it's not only the PPFD but also the distance between light source and the puddle?
A CoB emitting the same number of photons as a 4" strip would have the same number of photons hitting the canopy of a large grow area. The strip's photons would hit more plants and leaves than the CoB. The CoB would hit fewer leaves but would hit them each with more photons.
The only advantage to the strip is the photons are spread out more uniformly across more plants.
This would be an advantage if when the plants were short and the canopy thin, you could lower the strips closer to the canopy and reduce the current (intensity). Then as the plant grow you increase the distance between the strips and canopy, and increase the current/intensity while maintaining the same PPFD at the top of the canopy. This would save electricity while maintaining penetration.
Strips beat CoBs in lm/W ratio, price per lumen, and the cost of heatsinks. Otherwise it's in how they are used that makes the difference. CoBs may have more limitations in how they are used. I prefer strips over CoBs. I prefer strippers over CoBers.
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mahiluana
Well-Known Member
there will be ~ 75% of produced heat power with led - and ~ 80% with hps
you can estimate 450w VS 800w to compare the heat production of a 600w led lamp vs a 1000w hps
heat management is a main issue for mostly all lamps, bulbs...
below you see 6 x 100w chip in parallel @ 30V * 330mA (10 W driver)
if you drive a chip at low current - light efficiency increase but they still produce more or less the same heat. A 100w chip which is rated @ 3000mA max. current can produce ~75w of heat and your heat management(heatsink + fans) is expensive and need additional energy (like the ac you wanted to buy) to stay below 100°C chip temp.
A 100w chip @ only ~ 50 mA is high efficient and with only 1,65w produce ~1,2w of heat power. Without any heatsink the chip reach only handwarm 40°C
Longlife of a cool diy build is a must - efficiency also... and there are millions of options in between.
I go as a diy led watercooler, because harvesting the still enormeous heat production of led light
in a heatexchanger can easily triple the energy efficiency of your lamp build.
If heat in the grow room is a problem in summer you can --> take it out (and use it)
if cold " " " " " " " " winter you can bring the heat back in the night and heat your grow room.
a 8$ / m rectangular aluminium tube is the cheapest, best heatsink that i know.
to have a basic investment with your grow size i would go with:
***************************************************************************
- 100-120L electr.-boiler with integr. heatexchanger, brandnew can cost you 200,- US$ but you can use any "free" water tank and a serpentine pipe.
- aluminium tube ~ 30-50,- US$
- hose, pump + fittings ~30,- US$
- i.e. 3 x mean well elg240h-????mA ~130,- US$
and then have a long, interesting walk through the led chip gallery and spent hours and nights
to find the right led chip: mid power, high power, strips and plates, cheap and expensive, ....comparing
lm/w, cri, ppfd, par.......................
......................and the morning sun...going cheap and less efficient can start with 63,- US$ for 9 chips as below.
or going more efficient - buying the best chips light efficiency and big quantities to run them at low current - can bring you close to the most efficient lamp build ever....(90% energy efficacy)
as you see in the pic - a cob led is nothing else than a "mini" chip board
and 10 cobs spreaded over the area of a bigger chip platine like quantum boards will have
~ the same effect - the heat get dissipated better over a bigger surface of chip platine
and the basic is Vf + If , how many in series and/or parallel in any nanometers or cri
for me the ability to watercool a led chip makes the difference vs hps or any other light
taking a hot shower + growing indoor your own vegetables can be a mighty tool against climate change - -------------------- if you power your light with renewables
GrowLightResearch
Well-Known Member
@Olive Drab Green Another good analogy. Those Dr Seuss pages pretty much sums up the complexity of photons.
GrowLightResearch
Well-Known Member
I still love the ingenuity that went into your water cooled CoBs where the water is in contact with the CoB's thermal pad. Then using a heat exchanger to recover and reuse the heat, genius.
wietefras
Well-Known Member
True, you always say everybody (but you) is wrong and you never offer anything of substance.
Although, perhaps if you would dry all the bullshit, perhaps you could build a new house out of it?
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
In Afghanistan, they build their houses out of mud, straw, shit, and animal hair. I’ve seen those walls take an RPG and barely be left with a dent.
mahiluana
Well-Known Member
???
it`s not genuis to fix a led chip on a flat aluminium surface
it`s not genuis to transport the heat in a waterflow, as we do it every day in our cars and oil / gas central heating thing.
it`s not genuis to discover, that god ol sun was the first light-heat-cogeneration close in our univers
it`s not genuis to cut and drill aluminium tubes at all - lots of people do it every day.
it`s not genuis to recover all the comun knowledge and put it into a small led lamp build -
and create a little ?00w led sun that everyday can save your life - giving you calories to struggle against your physical and spiritual needs.
---
but "water + watercooled" itself is a genuis thing - but heat capacity and other abnormalties or records and fittings of H²O are godgiven or inside evolution(the whole globe adapted to water and the water adapt only to gravity and temperature. - and I`m shure, if there is a way to cool down climate change - it will be a watercooled one.
No idea how many kcalories I can cool down with 4L of beer/day - but must be around 2400kcal - this was my only genuis effort today
THANKS - but me genuis ? It`s not my fault
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Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
*genius???
it`s not genuis to fix a led chip on a flat aluminium surface
it`s not genuis to transport the heat in a waterflow, as we do it every day in our cars and oil / gas central heating thing.
it`s not genuis to discover, that god ol sun was the first light-heat-cogeneration close in our univers
it`s not genuis to cut and drill aluminium tubes at all - lots of people do it every day.
it`s not genuis to recover all the comun knowledge and put it into a small led lamp build -
and create a little ?00w led sun that everyday can save your life - giving you calories to struggle against your physical and spiritual needs.
---
but "water + watercooled" itself is a genuis thing - but heat capacity and other abnormalties or records and fittings of H²O are godgiven or inside evolution(the whole globe adapted to water and the water adapt only to gravity and temperature. - and I`m shure, that if there is a way to cool down climate change - it will be a watercooled one.
No idea how many kcalories I can cool down with 4L of beer/day - but must be around 2400kcal - this was my only genuis effort today
Just saying.
mahiluana
Well-Known Member
...my little dick often helps identify little vaginas... (100%
)... and sometimes i wish to have 2 or 3 or as many as possible...
...but Picasso as an artist said: searching is not important -
... only finding is important !
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Also, Nx, you are really stupid. HPS is omnidirectional. It doesn’t go straight anywhere except out.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Whatever you’re into, man....my little dick often helps identify little vaginas... (100%
... and sometimes i wish to have 2 or 3 or as many as possible...
...but Picasso as an artist said: searching is not important -
... only finding is important !
Are you angry because I had to help you learn to spell genius? Going to obsess over me like Nx’s thirsty ass?