best nutrients to use in hydro

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Disclaimer I have never used Chem-Gro 4-20-39 just looked it up would never use it lol , I looked at the recipe it is far from legit , its pretty sad, someone must have made it to sell product . not only is it not balanced ( the most important part ) but the other values are way off IE. Calcium nitrate/ MPP etc. why would anyone even dream of throwing that much nitrate at your plants from week 5 on. and i think they forgot the importance of MPP

Hmm weed forumite or nutrient company thats been around since the 60s and never seen an add for them anywhere weed related who do you want to trust?

Seems to be working great for me atm will know more after a second run but so far its great not following theri feed chart as its too hot for rdwc but im using similar raitios just not as much


Break down the purpose of nitrogen for me please :)
 

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Environment trumps nutes every time.... this is not True. All factors are equally as important, in a Scenario where the environment is very good and the nutes are shit you will not have optimal growth, the same as if the nutes were very good and the environment was shit. A plants leaves are connected directly with the root system, they work together not independently. Also if you guys are talking about building blocks of a plant etc you should be putting a lot more thought in to micro nutes as well.
Bwahahaha imo environment is 50% nutes are 20 and lights are 30

Good growers tune their nutes to the plants and the ENVIRONMENT they are in :)
 

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
you have some ppm ranges for veg and bloom for all 16 micros?
Hey Rkymtnman Boron is a good one , a very good one but Boron goes way behyond ppm it effects the whole nutrient solution in one way or another, I'll try not to write a book but hopefully I'll give you some useful info.
so what is Boron ,well its is an essential micronutrient necessary for optimal plant growth and development.pretty much all of a plant’s boron is found in its cell walls. its most important role is aiding in cell wall formation functioning and strength.Boron has also an important role in meristematic tissue, especially in root points, pollen growth and shoot growth points,the number of bud sites, flower growth etc. .Potassium and phosphorus nutrition is enhanced by boron.It is available as boric acid as well
well if your familiar with photosynthesis i'm sure you know that The four major nutrients that enable photosynthesis are calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and boron. so one should be very mindful of enhancing availability of these elements. B and Ca have a very close realtionship that most don't understand Ca and B support each other in the plant.low deficient levels of B will reduce the uptake of Ca, If Ca is deficient, B uptake is also reduced . You can have high Ca, but with low B, that Ca is not absorbed. ok back to the relationship between Phosphorus and Magnesium, and between Calcium and Boron. Calcium is necessary for the transport of all other nutrients in the plant. Calcium should be balanced with potassium, magnesium and sodium Too much potassium inhibits the uptake of both Calcium and Magnesium. A plant needs Boron in order to take in Calcium.high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron,potassium and copper. so i could still go more indepth but hopefully you can now all understand why a balances solution is important.
we do know B absorption is very slow and is relatively immobile in the plant, transpiration plays a significant role in translocation.here is where people running a recycling system run in to trouble very very easily and don't have a clue why. your plants uptake nutrients at different rates , there is basically 3 different classes N,P,K,Mn are absorbed the fastest , Mg,S,Fe,Zn,Cu,Mo,and CI have an intermediate uptake and Ca and B being the slowest so the nutrients that returns to the reservoir is altered from the inital fed , meaning the fastest nutrients get depleted while the less needed nutrients accumulate in the solution, the process keeps repeating and within a day or days the ratios of nutrients to each other are fucked,thats why I laugh when people say they don't change the solution for weeks. also remember Ec readings do not distinguish between the different types of nutrients ions and that given N.P.K,Mn are taken up at higher rates then other elements N,P,K,Mn may be deficient even though the EC is ideal.
so as far as ppm there are 3 different guidelines for Boron from the US EPA sensitive crops citrus and trees 0.3 to 1.25 semi tolerant crops cereals and grains 0.67 - 2.5 tolerant crops includes most vegetables 1.0 - 4.0 . Me I run around 1ppm to 1.3 through veg. pre-flower I bump it up as the plant is doing a lot of things and building its self, stretching/growing , transitioning to flower etc. and then another bump for the heaviest 2 weeks of flower, I go as high as 4-4.5 and then right back down to 1 ppm. but remember I don't just change the Boron everything in the solution changes weekly to keep all the elements in balance
 

Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
Hey Rkymtnman Boron is a good one , a very good one but Boron goes way behyond ppm it effects the whole nutrient solution in one way or another, I'll try not to write a book but hopefully I'll give you some useful info.
so what is Boron ,well its is an essential micronutrient necessary for optimal plant growth and development.pretty much all of a plant’s boron is found in its cell walls. its most important role is aiding in cell wall formation functioning and strength.Boron has also an important role in meristematic tissue, especially in root points, pollen growth and shoot growth points,the number of bud sites, flower growth etc. .Potassium and phosphorus nutrition is enhanced by boron.It is available as boric acid as well
well if your familiar with photosynthesis i'm sure you know that The four major nutrients that enable photosynthesis are calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and boron. so one should be very mindful of enhancing availability of these elements. B and Ca have a very close realtionship that most don't understand Ca and B support each other in the plant.low deficient levels of B will reduce the uptake of Ca, If Ca is deficient, B uptake is also reduced . You can have high Ca, but with low B, that Ca is not absorbed. ok back to the relationship between Phosphorus and Magnesium, and between Calcium and Boron. Calcium is necessary for the transport of all other nutrients in the plant. Calcium should be balanced with potassium, magnesium and sodium Too much potassium inhibits the uptake of both Calcium and Magnesium. A plant needs Boron in order to take in Calcium.high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron,potassium and copper. so i could still go more indepth but hopefully you can now all understand why a balances solution is important.
we do know B absorption is very slow and is relatively immobile in the plant, transpiration plays a significant role in translocation.here is where people running a recycling system run in to trouble very very easily and don't have a clue why. your plants uptake nutrients at different rates , there is basically 3 different classes N,P,K,Mn are absorbed the fastest , Mg,S,Fe,Zn,Cu,Mo,and CI have an intermediate uptake and Ca and B being the slowest so the nutrients that returns to the reservoir is altered from the inital fed , meaning the fastest nutrients get depleted while the less needed nutrients accumulate in the solution, the process keeps repeating and within a day or days the ratios of nutrients to each other are fucked,thats why I laugh when people say they don't change the solution for weeks. also remember Ec readings do not distinguish between the different types of nutrients ions and that given N.P.K,Mn are taken up at higher rates then other elements N,P,K,Mn may be deficient even though the EC is ideal.
so as far as ppm there are 3 different guidelines for Boron from the US EPA sensitive crops citrus and trees 0.3 to 1.25 semi tolerant crops cereals and grains 0.67 - 2.5 tolerant crops includes most vegetables 1.0 - 4.0 . Me I run around 1ppm to 1.3 through veg. pre-flower I bump it up as the plant is doing a lot of things and building its self, stretching/growing , transitioning to flower etc. and then another bump for the heaviest 2 weeks of flower, I go as high as 4-4.5 and then right back down to 1 ppm. but remember I don't just change the Boron everything in the solution changes weekly to keep all the elements in balance
I am going to take a stab at guessing your demographic, for my own entertainment. You are a white male, middle class, approximately 26 years old with a recently attained BS from a State University. You know plant biology well enough that you probably studied it in college, or you may work professionally in the field. Perhaps an arborist by trade. Other career possibilities include engineering or some kind of computer science. I am also guessing you are single, straight, Christian (because statistically that’s a good bet) a gun owner, and you like beer more than wine, and cigars more than a pipe, but you avoid tobacco except for special occasions. You have not had any serious traumatic injuries and you are in generally good health except for a few plant allergies. Your relationship with your father is rocky in some way, and you have no kids of your own.

(Just guessing, if I am wrong it only proves I am not psychic; which I am not. It would be fun to know how far off I am, probably frickin’ miles.)

My beef is you made false claims to knowledge that you could not possess. You clearly have enough information to contribute to the conversation, but claiming to know the optimal values for all micronutrients in cannabis is overshooting your target. You have a set of opinions on dosing micronutrients, not a set of facts.

Implying that you have uncovered some secret knowledge that the rest of us do not have access to is sort of shitty, man. I admit when challenged you were able to make a convincing post, and I have no doubt you’re a bright person, but there wasn’t anything new in what you wrote. You shared a slice of your system and your reasons for it. No matter how well reasoned, those statements are not empirical facts, they are your opinion.

Dial it back a bit, maybe? You’re smart and well-informed enough you shouldn’t have to puff up your chest quite that much to feel on top of your game.

I am pleased you had the grit to respond in the verbose manner you have, and I tip my hat to you for it.
 
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southernguy99

Well-Known Member
Hmm weed forumite or nutrient company thats been around since the 60s and never seen an add for them anywhere weed related who do you want to trust?

Seems to be working great for me atm will know more after a second run but so far its great not following theri feed chart as its too hot for rdwc but im using similar raitios just not as much


Break down the purpose of nitrogen for me please :)
nope never seen a add for them anywhere because I don't mess with any of that shit, back in the day there wasn't grow shops on every corner, and we were not conditioned that you needed to go to one and buy 8 or 10 bottle of some mass produced fancy named shit in a bottle. not to mention the retarded price of it. we did the old school way by mixing our own, playing with formulas , and as one thing lead to another plant samples etc. untill we got to where we are thats why I can look at a solution do some percentages and math in my head and know if its any good. the people that really no how to grow has no need to step foot in a grow shop,being good at anything is sometimes not what you know but what you have yet to learn, there is a whole underground of stuff that just never gets out I can see why, I have pure genetics probably older then most on here I have some thats never been released, I seen formulas that would blow your mind, and yet one tries to give out a little helpful info. you guys start acting like little cry babies and start throwing out names and shit. not that I care in the least but why would one want to throw out info.

the break down of nitrogen N03(-) and N4H(+) really thats in the basic play book, but I done enough typing tonight maybe another time I'll tell you how they interact with other elements and how to use it with Co2
 
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Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
one tries to give out a little helpful info. you guys start acting like little cry babies and start throwing out names and shit.
That’s not really how it went. You dropped in and said:

Environment trumps nutes every time.... this is not True. All factors are equally as important, in a Scenario where the environment is very good and the nutes are shit you will not have optimal growth, the same as if the nutes were very good and the environment was shit. A plants leaves are connected directly with the root system, they work together not independently. Also if you guys are talking about building blocks of a plant etc you should be putting a lot more thought in to micro nutes as well.
Which is largely just waving your dick around.

You didn’t tell me anything new there, that’s for sure. And you assumed none of us were putting enough thought into micros, which is pretty arrogant and somewhat rude, not to mention wrong. How the fuck would you know how much thought and study I have given to micronutrients? I know there are a lot of clowns out there, but assuming because we are all wearing rubber noses and giant shoes it means we showed up in the same tiny car is neither helpful nor accurate.

I can see now my demographic guess of your age is way off, you are an old dude like me.

No hate here, ain’t mad, but let’s keep it real.
 

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
yeah you were very wrong lol I think you had 3 things right but I'm not an old dude sorry

sorry but I don't see where you got that from it certainly wasn't meant that way , as far as the Environment trumps nutes every time it is incorrect what do you want me to say, and that is backed up by journals from some very well know universities. and that post wasn't a reply to anyone or directed at anyone it was a post maybe you never learned anything or put anymore thought into anything but maybe someone else did and searched some of it up learned something

you wrote...
My beef is you made false claims to knowledge that you could not possess. You clearly have enough information to contribute to the conversation, but claiming to know the optimal values for all micronutrients in cannabis is overshooting your target. You have a set of opinions on dosing micronutrients, not a set of facts.

I never made false claims , from years of testing and knowledge learned my opinion is and i believe my values are as optimal as they get.and when comparing to others and testing I have yet to see any other set of values prove me different if you have a set of weekly micro values that change with the life of the plant and stay in balance with all other element please send them over I'd gladly compare and do testing with you.

you wrote
Implying that you have uncovered some secret knowledge that the rest of us do not have access to is sort of shitty

not implying I uncovered anything secret at all , but what I did learn was through a lot of hard work and time. and its not a secret admittedly it may have mostly been in the underground there is now much online, there is some great journals from universities and agriculture places that list it all out. take it put it in practice and start testing. like i said in hydro the sky is the limit think outside the box because I'm sure one can learn much more then I know
 

Michael Huntherz

Well-Known Member
yeah you were very wrong lol I think you had 3 things right but I'm not an old dude sorry

sorry but I don't see where you got that from it certainly wasn't meant that way , as far as the Environment trumps nutes every time it is incorrect what do you want me to say, and that is backed up by journals from some very well know universities. and that post wasn't a reply to anyone or directed at anyone it was a post maybe you never learned anything or put anymore thought into anything but maybe someone else did and searched some of it up learned something

you wrote...
My beef is you made false claims to knowledge that you could not possess. You clearly have enough information to contribute to the conversation, but claiming to know the optimal values for all micronutrients in cannabis is overshooting your target. You have a set of opinions on dosing micronutrients, not a set of facts.

I never made false claims , from years of testing and knowledge learned my opinion is and i believe my values are as optimal as they get.and when comparing to others and testing I have yet to see any other set of values prove me different if you have a set of weekly micro values that change with the life of the plant and stay in balance with all other element please send them over I'd gladly compare and do testing with you.

you wrote
Implying that you have uncovered some secret knowledge that the rest of us do not have access to is sort of shitty

not implying I uncovered anything secret at all , but what I did learn was through a lot of hard work and time. and its not a secret admittedly it may have mostly been in the underground there is now much online, there is some great journals from universities and agriculture places that list it all out. take it put it in practice and start testing. like i said in hydro the sky is the limit think outside the box because I'm sure one can learn much more then I know
Fair enough, I disagree on some of the specifics, but it’s okay to disagree.
No hard feelings of any kind.
Cheers and happy growing!
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
Hey Rkymtnman Boron is a good one , a very good one but Boron goes way behyond ppm it effects the whole nutrient solution in one way or another, I'll try not to write a book but hopefully I'll give you some useful info.
so what is Boron ,well its is an essential micronutrient necessary for optimal plant growth and development.pretty much all of a plant’s boron is found in its cell walls. its most important role is aiding in cell wall formation functioning and strength.Boron has also an important role in meristematic tissue, especially in root points, pollen growth and shoot growth points,the number of bud sites, flower growth etc. .Potassium and phosphorus nutrition is enhanced by boron.It is available as boric acid as well
well if your familiar with photosynthesis i'm sure you know that The four major nutrients that enable photosynthesis are calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, and boron. so one should be very mindful of enhancing availability of these elements. B and Ca have a very close realtionship that most don't understand Ca and B support each other in the plant.low deficient levels of B will reduce the uptake of Ca, If Ca is deficient, B uptake is also reduced . You can have high Ca, but with low B, that Ca is not absorbed. ok back to the relationship between Phosphorus and Magnesium, and between Calcium and Boron. Calcium is necessary for the transport of all other nutrients in the plant. Calcium should be balanced with potassium, magnesium and sodium Too much potassium inhibits the uptake of both Calcium and Magnesium. A plant needs Boron in order to take in Calcium.high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron,potassium and copper. so i could still go more indepth but hopefully you can now all understand why a balances solution is important.
we do know B absorption is very slow and is relatively immobile in the plant, transpiration plays a significant role in translocation.here is where people running a recycling system run in to trouble very very easily and don't have a clue why. your plants uptake nutrients at different rates , there is basically 3 different classes N,P,K,Mn are absorbed the fastest , Mg,S,Fe,Zn,Cu,Mo,and CI have an intermediate uptake and Ca and B being the slowest so the nutrients that returns to the reservoir is altered from the inital fed , meaning the fastest nutrients get depleted while the less needed nutrients accumulate in the solution, the process keeps repeating and within a day or days the ratios of nutrients to each other are fucked,thats why I laugh when people say they don't change the solution for weeks. also remember Ec readings do not distinguish between the different types of nutrients ions and that given N.P.K,Mn are taken up at higher rates then other elements N,P,K,Mn may be deficient even though the EC is ideal.
so as far as ppm there are 3 different guidelines for Boron from the US EPA sensitive crops citrus and trees 0.3 to 1.25 semi tolerant crops cereals and grains 0.67 - 2.5 tolerant crops includes most vegetables 1.0 - 4.0 . Me I run around 1ppm to 1.3 through veg. pre-flower I bump it up as the plant is doing a lot of things and building its self, stretching/growing , transitioning to flower etc. and then another bump for the heaviest 2 weeks of flower, I go as high as 4-4.5 and then right back down to 1 ppm. but remember I don't just change the Boron everything in the solution changes weekly to keep all the elements in balance
thanks for the thorough response!

i do just a small grow with 2 in veg, 2 in bloom using waterfarms in a drain to waste setup. for someone like me, buying bags of different salts is not really a good option.

of the nutes that are available on the market, which ones do you think most resemble the "best" for cannabis in your opinion? or in other words, if you had to run store bought stuff, what would you pick?
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
I’m thinking of changing back to miracle grow general purpose :(. I just smoked a big fat one with a buddy that used it on his soil grow and honestly it tasted very nice, burned well, and he said the plants were happy and large, he never ph’d water from a well and had them under two 600’s. Back when I started the larger field grows in the mid 80’s we used pounds of the stuff and never had any nutrient issues. I may try a run next and see what happens in my trays :). Oh and the Megacrop is god awful smelling :(.
 

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
thanks for the thorough response!

i do just a small grow with 2 in veg, 2 in bloom using waterfarms in a drain to waste setup. for someone like me, buying bags of different salts is not really a good option.

of the nutes that are available on the market, which ones do you think most resemble the "best" for cannabis in your opinion? or in other words, if you had to run store bought stuff, what would you pick?
Hey rkymtnman, I agree for 4 plants I wouldn't bother with mixing nutes and buy all the salts but I honestly can't answer your questions and without knowing for sure I don't want to say. I never did side by side tests with bottle nutes to see which one preformed the best, I have though ran different bottle nutes side by side to my way of doing it and none of them could keep up, and I don't remember any standouts, I think they all preformed roughly the same.

I it was me i would actually try what one of my buddies did who was growing just a couple, he had 7 or 10 gallon pots , used sunshine mix#4 and bough the starter pack of general organics nutrients got 2 grows out of it and actually done very well, instead of running sunshine though i'd buy organic compost, worm casting,a little rock dust use that as my soil and use the general organics nutes. I think you could do very well , but i'm not an organics guy I'm going by what I seen. I don't know if i'd bother with hydro for 4 plants, in fact I'm thinking of dropping the hydro and going all organics, I want the challenge of learning it inside and out.
 

Cold$moke

Well-Known Member
Personally ive never experienced ANY nutrient related problems THAT i didnt cause.

The exception is my possible bad bottles of advanced nutes.

Never.... every single nutrient i ever tried did exactly what it was supposed to lol

Botanicare severla lines for several years.
Gh trio for several years
Advanced different lines over 7 years
Canna just used once for a bit as i quit coco (for now)
RAW nutes by npk

And a few others i cant remember i think earthjuice .
 

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
I’m thinking of changing back to miracle grow general purpose :(. I just smoked a big fat one with a buddy that used it on his soil grow and honestly it tasted very nice, burned well, and he said the plants were happy and large, he never ph’d water from a well and had them under two 600’s. Back when I started the larger field grows in the mid 80’s we used pounds of the stuff and never had any nutrient issues. I may try a run next and see what happens in my trays :). Oh and the Megacrop is god awful smelling :(.
Hey Bro I'm not trying to be a smart ass or know it all but if you don't know or understand the make up of nutrients now is the time to start lol. I would not under any circumstances use miracle gro for anything other then a flower or a plant i'm going to just look at and even then I'd think twice .

The guy above asked about nitrogen so let just look at that , in a high quality nitrogen you will see 2 different forms NO3(-) ion (nitrate) and NH4(+) ion (ammonium). NO3 should be 90% of the total nitrogen and NH4 should be 10% that is important.

miracle gro uses neither. they use ammoniacal nitrogen NH3-N it is a shit shit nitrogen and its used at 20% for there main nitrogen source they use urea nitrogen at 80% again a very low end shirty nitrogen .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammoniacal_nitrogen
 

southernguy99

Well-Known Member
No not really it has to do with the make up of ion , how its uptaken and it can be toxic, but it does have some very good value as well.

Nitrogen is a macro element used in relatively large quantities by the plant for plant grow. For hydro the two different forms for plant uptake are nitrate and ammonium-again at 90% to 10% the biggest issue with nitrogen is its easily over used without the grow knowing it. Nitrate can be called a luxury element because if you have to much nitrate or extra in your solution the plant will uptake it regaurdless if it needs it or not. that creates an isue with photosynthesis,30% to 40% of the energy of photosynthesis is burned just to take up nitrates. so too much nitrate and the plant burns up its energy reserves for more top growth and inhibites root growth.and just because the plant is dark green and looks healthy its not to much nitrates cause large cells with thin cell walls, making them more susceptible to stress and disease. to much stored nitrates cause bad flavors

ammonium-nitrogen - ok a plant will uptake ammonium ions immediately,without accumulating excess nitrates , ammonium ion is positively charged and as the plant uptakes it exchanges positively-charged H+ ions from the roots which neutralize excess bicarbonate ions in the water and drives the pH down.if you have a nitrogen deficiency ammonium is your quickest fix because it uptakes it immediately can also be used as a foliar feed . the reason you only want to run it at 10% of total nitrogen is because it can be toxic at anymore, and really effect growth.but if your running Co2 and high light output you can run it up 20% to maximize growth
 
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