Clone vs S1

[superhigh3]

I have a question and I'm sure someone has the answer even though "what's the difference between a clone and a S1" yielded 2 threads and neither had what I was looking for...

A clone is a new plant made from a mother. Therefore every clone is identical to the mother since its essentially the same plant. They should all be exactly like the plant they came from.


Now my question is how does that vary from s1 seeds. Are s1's essentially the seed form of a clone? As in all offspring (seeds taken from a selfed mother) will grow exactly like the mother.


Is it possible to grow an s1 and it be different than the mother in terms of growth or the high. Smells. Etc. Like if I made s1s of a 50-50 hybrid that grew short and squat (Indica properties) smelled like say lemons...and have a pure sativa effect (no couch lock . Uplifting. Good for daytime etc) and end up growing the s1s only to get a plant that grows tall and lanky. Long flower proud. Smells like fuel and and the high is different (say body stone)

Or what?

I wanna make s1s of a winner instead of keep a mother alive if possible . Smart or will I lose the greatness that the mother exhibits?

hey. im stoned.

 

[qwizoking]

I had a master kush forever that i cloned and grew out. None of the clones were exactly the same. Mainly flavor and not structure or anything. Flowered 49-53 days that girl was a beast, purpled even in 100° weather

Genetics change over time. Only way to truly preserve is through seed. And yes they can be very accurate representations

 

[superhigh3]

Excuse me for coming off like a know it all dick head because I promise it's not how I intend to come off but are you sure?

I've always heard the opposite. That by making seeds it won't be the same but a clone will be because you're basically making a new plant from an old one. Like making a copy of something at kinkos .

Like I said I don't mean to come off like I know better than you I'm just confused because it seems you're saying you're more likely to preserve the genetics via s1 seeds than clones

hey. im stoned.

 

[Dr. Who]

@superhigh3
Hmm, nice question....
First off, environmental changes - even small ones, would account for what qwiz states.....The clone is the same,,,,it's just reacting to it's environment....

Now then...S1 "self" seeding or "selfing" increases the opportunity for recessive characteristics or mutation to occur. You may get a perfect mom copy, or you may not!

Do not confuse F1 "phenotypes" for the mutational changes that can occur in S1's!

Does it work?,,,yup! It's just that, sometimes, things can happen.

 

[qwizoking]

Im basically talking about epigenetic differences

They can be inherited..
Your genetics are always changing. The less stress the mom goes through the better the clones.

In both cases you could lose some of the desired traits.
From my limited experience in long term cloning i prefer seedstock. But im accustomed to growing landrace sativas that vary minimally over 100's of seeds and some are decades old

 

[707humboldt]

I generally only keep moms around for a year or so but every clone I have cut has been identical

 

[EverythingsHazy]

In regards to clones and "genetic drift":

While spontaneous mutations can occur in all living things, there are too many things that would have to line up for genetic drift to work the way people claim, at least within a normal human's lifetime of growing/cloning via cuttings.

1, The plant would have to mutate.
2. The mutation would have to be on a gene that we pay attention to, such as the plant's appearance and effects.
3. The mutation would have to be strong enough that it is noticeable, or happen repeatedly to become more pronounced.


And after all of that, who's to say the mutation would be a negative one?



I think that a more likely culprit for the belief that keeping a strain for many generations causes it to degrade, is plant infections/infestations. Over time, especiailly if you use the same products on the plants to keep them free of pests and diseases, you can either cause your resident pathogens to evolve with a resistance to you and your plants' defenses (microbes reproduce and evolve much faster than other multi-cellular organisms like animals and plants), or you can just keep being lucky until you eventually come across a pathogen (possibly a plant virus) that contaminates your crop, and gets passed down through further cuttings.

Seeds will never be identical to each other.
Even selfed ones. Selfing a plant is similar to crossing it with one of its siblings from the same generation. Gene recombination still occurs, and dominant/recessive qualities come into play.

It's the best way to get babies as close to the parents as possible, though.

Selfing a plant does not cause it to mutate either.

 

[cindysid]

In regards to clones and "genetic drift":


Seeds will never be identical to each other.
Even selfed ones. Selfing a plant is similar to crossing it with one of its siblings from the same generation. Gene recombination still occurs, and dominant/recessive qualities come into play.

It's the best way to get babies as close to the parents as possible, though.

Selfing a plant does not cause it to mutate either.

If you use artificial means to self pollinate a plant, I would think that mutations would be possible, caused by the chemicals/hormones.

 

[farmerfischer]

Cloned plants will be almost identical in growth and potency.. ( depending on environment like stated earlier) Selfing is another story.. there are two types of s1's from my understanding.. S1 vs s1
S1= is a mother plant that has been pollenized by the male flowers that were induced on it.. the seeds or offspring will be almost identical to the mother with two or three variations in phenos.. s1= a mother plant pollenized by male flowers form a separate mother of the same strain and seed batch will produce several variations in phenos..

 

[Zero_OS]

s1= a mother plant pollenized by male flowers form a separate mother of the same strain and seed batch will produce several variations in phenos..

I am wondering if this is correct. Wouldn't this be a feminized F(#+1) ?

For example, if I have two F3 females of the same strain, and I fertilize one with female pollen of the other, wouldn't the offspring be a feminized F4?

 

[blake9999]

I believe so.

 

[Observe & Report]

Wow, lots of ignorant rambling on this thread. Let's not forget that selfing isn't something unique to Cannabis, it was the technique used by Gregor Mendel when he worked out the basics of genetic inheritance 150 years ago.

S1 = first selfed generation = selfing is being pollinated by the same genotype
F1 = first filial generation

Yes, if you cross two filial genotypes you get the next filial generation even if they are both female. So yes, crossing two female F3 siblings gives you F4 seeds.

Applying silver to a female Cannabis plant inhibits the production of ethylene, which causes the plant to produce male parts. The genetics don't change, there are no mutations. Meiosis proceeds normally, producing four pollen grains from each parent cell, just like in a male plant. Since you start with XX instead of XY, you get four grains of X pollen instead of two X and two Y grains. From there it's exactly the same as regular male-female sex. "Fem" seeds are identical to the half of regular seeds that are female. There is no difference.

Mendelian laws still apply. Genes are independently assorted. That means each pollen/ovum has a different set of genetics, one or the other allele chosen independently from the others. That means S1 seeds are not clones, each recessive heterozygous gene lurking in the parent has a 25% of coming up homozygous recessive in each seed.

So whether S1's produce phenos like the parent depends on how stable the parents genetics are, i.e. how homozygous the genes are. Most Cannabis isn't stable because there is no money in producing true breeding strains or selling seeds in general, so when you self you get lots of recessive traits popping up and you rarely get the magic combination that prompted you to self the parent in the first place.

start here, dig deeper:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_Genetics#Mendel's_laws

 

[farmerfischer]

I am wondering if this is correct. Wouldn't this be a feminized F(#+1) ?

For example, if I have two F3 females of the same strain, and I fertilize one with female pollen of the other, wouldn't the offspring be a feminized F4?

It's correct.. and you are correct.. I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying there.. the S1 vs s1 is just to categorize the females or female that was selfed.. doesn't really apply to generation's.. it's just to show weither if the female was pollenized by her own pollen(S1) or if she was pollenized by a different females pollen(s1). Female selfed with her own pollen the resulting offspring will show very few pheno variations.. a female pollenized by a different female the offspring will have several variations in phenos.. hope this make some sense to you..

 

[Observe & Report]

Female selfed with her own pollen the resulting offspring will show very few pheno variations.. a female pollenized by a different female the offspring will have several variations in phenos..

You can't make general statements like this because it depends on how stable (homozygous) the parent genes are. Alleles are separated and individually assorted before being recombined at fertilization, just like regular sex. If the genes are homozygous then you won't get much variation but how much Cannabis is stable like this? 40 years of chucking hasn't done stability any favors. There are like zero true breeding lines of Cannabis.

 

[farmerfischer]

You can't make general statements like this because it depends on how stable (homozygous) the parent genes are. Alleles are separated and individually assorted before being recombined at fertilization, just like regular sex. If the genes are homozygous then you won't get much variation but how much Cannabis is stable like this? 40 years of chucking hasn't done stability any favors. There are like zero true breeding lines of Cannabis.

Ok.. I understand the hardy-wineburg law of genetic equilibrium.. thanks..

 

[farmerfischer]

There are like zero true breeding lines of Cannabis.

What's that about general statements?
I believe you just made one.. because there are many true breeding lineages of cannabis.. true landraces are getting scarce but far as true breeding strains,, I beg to differ..

 

[Observe & Report]

there are many true breeding lineages of cannabis.. true landraces are getting scarce but far as true breeding strains,, I beg to differ..

Which ones, and where could one get them?

 

[farmerfischer]

Which ones, and where could one get them?

I'm not sourcing you information that is easily obtainable, if you just do your own homework you would be surprised what true breeding cannabis's are available..

 

[jayblaze710]

Ok.. I understand the hardy-wineburg law of genetic equilibrium.. thanks..

Hardy-Weinberg has nothing to do with genetic recombination or a single cross. It’s a population genetics theory, meaning it describes how allele and genotype frequencies may change (or not) over time in an infinitely large population. It’s totally irrelevant to breeding.

Also, I’m with O&R, true breeding cannabis doesn’t really exist. Landraces, by sheer fact of existing under varying conditions with large population sizes, actually show a LOT of phenotypic variation because they’re able to maintain a lot of genetic variation over generations.

Cannabis people tend to have this weird idea that landraces are inbred or don’t show a lot of variation. They’re not. It’s the opposite in fact.

That’s why Landraces are inbred over multiple generations when worked to narrow down the phenotypes to the most desirable.

 

[Observe & Report]

Also, I’m with O&R, true breeding cannabis doesn’t really exist. Landraces, by sheer fact of existing under varying conditions with large population sizes, actually show a LOT of phenotypic variation because they’re able to maintain a lot of genetic variation over generations.

Also, decades of prohibition, "strain hunters" and the like have taken their toll. Not to mention actual locals just improving their crops. When you google for landrace seeds, you mostly get hybrids.

Ultimately, where do gringo stoners get landraces? How many of these guys are buying sacks of weed on vacation, mailing home the seeds, chucking more and declaring it a "landrace" ??