Big Green Thumb
Well-Known Member
How tall are those plants from soil/coco/bucket to the top of the plant? They look spectacular, but I would love some sort of size reference.
Sativa madness
- Thread starter Prawn Connery
- Start date
Sour Wreck
Well-Known Member
"Swizzleberry" looking nice
Prawn Connery
Well-Known Member
If you're talking about my current grow, that's easy: the tent is 4' wide, each of the LED frames are exactly 2' wide, the double black pots are 1' tall and so the tallest plants are just over 4' tall, not including the pots.
If you're referring to the haze grow above, my old vertical cabinet was 4'x4'x6', so you can see some of the buds are almost touching the roof when stood up (they're obviously leaning on the trellis) and are 4'6" to 5' tall without the 2.5 gallon pots.
This plant had already been removed from the cabinet when I took the photo above - I took it out to show how close the 600w HPS bulb was running to the plants (otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the bulb). This plant was just under 6' from the bottom of the pot to the tallest buds. It weighed about 3/4lb (12oz) when cut, dried and trimmed. It was a fairly average sized plant for this set-up, as most of the hazes would run 10+oz and my biggest ever in this set-up was 15oz, or just shy of 1lb.
This is from another grow in the same cabinet and, as mentioned on page 1, went just shy of 11oz. The pot is 1' tall, so again the plant is probably about 4'6" tall or thereabouts.
This is a very old photo of mine I found on Google (sorry about the image quality) from about 2006 showing the first version of my vertical cabinet with the same 4'x4'x6' dimensions. The plant is sitting on a cinder block, but the cabinet is also raised a few inches off the ground to allow feed and drainage hoses to enter/exit. Again, this was a typical haze grow in this set-up and this plant would have been a couple of weeks from harvest and is over 5' tall including the pot.
Prawn Connery
Well-Known Member
This grow seems to be going better than my first LED attempt, but I'm not sure about the improvement over my old vertical HPS set-up. I grew vertical for over a decade, but I've been growing indoors and out, on and off for the past 30 years.
However, until I started my first LED grow, I hadn't grown anything for about three years, so there was a bit of a learning curve with the LEDs, as well as having to "clear out the cobwebs" in terms of growing again. I've never grown anything but pot, so I'm not exactly a keen gardener!
I think what you're really asking, though, is what do I think of LED vs HID. Well, I got close to a pound on my first LED grow under 400w (though I started off driving them a bit higher, gradually reducing power until I found the sweet spot), so on numbers alone that's just over 1gpw compared to my average 1.3-1.4gpw in my vertical HPS set-up. I grow in a hot climate without aircon or CO2, in coco run-to-waste, and always multi-cropping (usually three or four different strains), so my old HPS numbers weren't too shabby.
I think this grow may rival that, but there are always other factors to consider like strains, time of year (temperature/humidity in a non-controlled room), flowering time etc. So on face value, yes, I now believe LEDs are more efficient and will only get better.
But . . . while the plants and buds look good, and the smoke is up there, I have noticed the plants I've been growing under LED just don't seem to have the same oil production or aroma I'm familiar with. It just doesn't seem to be quite "there". I can't quite put my finger on it, so I've given a couple of clones to a friend of mine who grows commercially under HIDs to compare the final product.
One theory is the lack of UVA/B produced by LED compared to HID. Contrary to popular belief, HPS elements do produce UV light and that's the reason the bulbs have a bit of iron in the glass (giving it that green tinge) to filter out. But some escapes and is measurable. Not as much as MH and nowhere near the same as Mercury Vapour, but more than LED.
I've been tempted to throw a couple of UV reptile bulbs in my current grow to see if they make any difference, but I'm going to wait until I see the results of the same clones grown under HPS first.
Slinging PAR
Well-Known Member
Yeah it is learning curve switching over but you will catch on. Think of it as a more precise tool that gives you more options to create different things. You can add in uv leds if you want, uva works just fine and are relatively cheap. Not a fan of the reptile bulbs because they can break. See what works best for you and try something new that's interesting.
Too bad about only growing cannabis. There is much information that can be used from growing other plants to help your overall growing.
Too bad about only growing cannabis. There is much information that can be used from growing other plants to help your overall growing.
Puff_Dragon
Well-Known Member
What a wonderful grow (new and old ones). I started experimenting with led (from being mainly an outdoor grower with some basic hps growing inside). However, i started in the blurple zone (still escaping it really). I do want to go 'quantum' (at some point) but hps is seriously tempting me back (especially in colder months) ..and your beautiful indoor vertical hps grow is very inspiring.
question; do you place an intake fan at the bottom of the plants in the hps grow? So air is blown upwards, past the bulb (cooling it) and sending a column of air to the extractor fan above? or do you have the one extractor fan above?
question; do you place an intake fan at the bottom of the plants in the hps grow? So air is blown upwards, past the bulb (cooling it) and sending a column of air to the extractor fan above? or do you have the one extractor fan above?
Prawn Connery
Well-Known Member
That's right. The old cabinet had 4" legs that kept it off the ground and a 10" hole in the floor for plumbing in and out. Above the hole was a 12" floor fan that directed a column of air straight up to the extractor fan you can see in the photos. The centrifugal extractor fan fed into a carbon scrubber that sat on the roof.
As far as I'm aware, I was one of the first growers to document the "column of air" technique that you now see in most vertical grows that use a floor fan and overhead extractor. I started doing it at the beginning of 2004.
As far as I'm aware, I was one of the first growers to document the "column of air" technique that you now see in most vertical grows that use a floor fan and overhead extractor. I started doing it at the beginning of 2004.
Prawn Connery
Well-Known Member
I know. I just never had any interest in growing anything other than pot. I must admit, my wife does a lot of gardening and I'm always the one telling her how to do it, LOL! Best of both worlds, really - she grows the veggies and I get to experiment.
OneHitDone
Well-Known Member
What size hps lamps were you running in your vertical grows?If you're talking about my current grow, that's easy: the tent is 4' wide, each of the LED frames are exactly 2' wide, the double black pots are 1' tall and so the tallest plants are just over 4' tall, not including the pots.
If you're referring to the haze grow above, my old vertical cabinet was 4'x4'x6', so you can see some of the buds are almost touching the roof when stood up (they're obviously leaning on the trellis) and are 4'6" to 5' tall without the 2.5 gallon pots.
This plant had already been removed from the cabinet when I took the photo above - I took it out to show how close the 600w HPS bulb was running to the plants (otherwise you wouldn't be able to see the bulb). This plant was just under 6' from the bottom of the pot to the tallest buds. It weighed about 3/4lb (12oz) when cut, dried and trimmed. It was a fairly average sized plant for this set-up, as most of the hazes would run 10+oz and my biggest ever in this set-up was 15oz, or just shy of 1lb.
This is from another grow in the same cabinet and, as mentioned on page 1, went just shy of 11oz. The pot is 1' tall, so again the plant is probably about 4'6" tall or thereabouts.
View attachment 4119624
This is a very old photo of mine I found on Google (sorry about the image quality) from about 2006 showing the first version of my vertical cabinet with the same 4'x4'x6' dimensions. The plant is sitting on a cinder block, but the cabinet is also raised a few inches off the ground to allow feed and drainage hoses to enter/exit. Again, this was a typical haze grow in this set-up and this plant would have been a couple of weeks from harvest and is over 5' tall including the pot.
Prawn Connery
Well-Known Member
Inline 600w HPS for a total of 1200w. I started with a single 600w bulb, then tried different combos of 600w HPS + 400w MH/HPS before finally settling on dual 600w HPS. The inline 600s offered the best combo of light and heat distribution, and were better suited to growing stretchy sativa strains. 600s are generally the most efficient HPS bulbs and 1000s concentrate too much heat and light in one bulb for such a small cabinet.
giantsfan24
Well-Known Member
Is 50w per square ft undesirable?
Humple
Well-Known Member
I'd say that depends. Some, like Prawn here, make it work. This is merely an uneducated observation, but it seems to me that coco and hydro growers fare better at those high light-levels? Personally, I've been staying well under 40w/sq ft (25-30 watts), because my plants get too toasty otherwise. I'm sure the temp and humidity of your space also play an important role. I'm still dialing it in though, and I'm aiming to get to a point where my plants can handle 40w (the upper limit for my fixtures and spaces).
giantsfan24
Well-Known Member
I've got 4 sq ft, temps have been running 80 to 90 lights on and humidity has been a little low at about 30%. The Jack Herer seems to be responding well but the papaya is knarled at the top. I'm running citizens clu 48 @ 50w per square ft. I started from seed and am 4.5 weeks in. Something tells me growth has been slow and I'm missing something.
Humple
Well-Known Member
Try turning it down. You never know... But you hit on another important factor - the strain. I think genetics often play the biggest part.
Prawn Connery
Well-Known Member
I don't know if there's an absolute figure, because there are so many variables, like strain, lighting design, environment (potential for heat stress), media and growing style, to highlight the most obvious.
I may be new to LEDs, but I do know that the more concentrated a single point of light is - COBs and some compact LED boards, for example - the more potential there is for hotspots and localised heat build-up. The strips I'm using have a very even spread of light over the canopy, and that's the way I designed it.
There's also the old efficiency-vs-total yield debate: do you spread your light to increase grams per watt, or do you concentrate it in an effort to maximise yield per footprint?
I have a finite amount of space, so I try to make the best use of it.
There will be a point where you will maximise grams per sqft - as opposed to grams per watt - and I believe the only real way to find that point is to keep dialling in your grow. That's not just light dependent, but also includes all the variables mentioned above.
As others have pointed out, yes there is a point of diminishing returns and, ultimately, a point of inverse returns, where more light = less yield as you stress the plant.
The only advise I can give is to read the plant and see how it responds. You'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't after a while.
I may be new to LEDs, but I do know that the more concentrated a single point of light is - COBs and some compact LED boards, for example - the more potential there is for hotspots and localised heat build-up. The strips I'm using have a very even spread of light over the canopy, and that's the way I designed it.
There's also the old efficiency-vs-total yield debate: do you spread your light to increase grams per watt, or do you concentrate it in an effort to maximise yield per footprint?
I have a finite amount of space, so I try to make the best use of it.
There will be a point where you will maximise grams per sqft - as opposed to grams per watt - and I believe the only real way to find that point is to keep dialling in your grow. That's not just light dependent, but also includes all the variables mentioned above.
As others have pointed out, yes there is a point of diminishing returns and, ultimately, a point of inverse returns, where more light = less yield as you stress the plant.
The only advise I can give is to read the plant and see how it responds. You'll get a feel for what works and what doesn't after a while.
giantsfan24
Well-Known Member
What wattage are you flowering at?
Humple
Well-Known Member
25w in one tent and 30w in another.