Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[ShLUbY]

I guess where I'm going wrong; I'm looking at each ingredient as something different but in reality I should be adding some of the ingredient amounts as one? Is that what your saying?

now you're getting it. you have redundant ingredients. the fishbone meal and the bone meal are, as far as NPK, one in the same... though i believe the fishbone meal is a superior product, so i would just roll with that (but you could split the total amount between the two if you wanted, yes). the azomite and basalt are basically one in the same... i prefer the basalt because of its texture (not powdered) not that they really affect NPK but i think you get what I mean.

the biolive is basically just a mix of the ingredients you already have, but with beneficials included... which isn't a bad thing. I'm trying a box out right now actually... it's like an all purpose or "stand alone" fert, but is fine in smaller amounts like 1/4-1/2c per cu.ft. as part of a recipe.

 

[Greenthumbs256]

Is what your saying things like alfalfa kelp bio live fish bone MeAL all should make a total of 1 cup per cu. Ft. Of soil?

 

[Greenthumbs256]

OK give me a few I'm gunna try and re work this whole thing and figure it out!
But what should I do about the fact that one tote is already mixed should I just cook it longer? Or maybe try to cut it with compost, ewc, and some more rice hauls?

Second blood, and bone meal I'll cut out all together! I'll go light on everything to add extra Boi live for more diversity! Can I group alfalfa, kelp, fish bone meal, and neem meal at 1/4 cup each per cu. Ft. And group some other or should I be adding everything as one

 

[ShLUbY]

Sorry I'm just really confused I was under the impresion that some amendments like kelp, alfalfa, fish, bio everything are good to be added at 1 cup EACH for every cu. ft. And others like minerals, gypsum azomite basalt were to added at 1/4 cup each for every cu. Ft. And the big crushed shells as in oyster and crab were to added at 1/2 each per cu.ft. and this is for re amending used soil! Which started as ffof and happy frog and tons of ewc and compost!

AM I WRONG???

with an ingredient list as diverse as yours, as far as the NPK ingredients go, i would not go more than 1/2 cup per cu.ft. with any of them (and i would exclude bone meal, and blood meal for sure).

your end goal as far as NPK should be no more than 3.5 cups total per cu.ft. (and a little less is fine too, you can always add more by topdressing).

example:
neem, alfalfa, kelp, crab, and fishbone meals @ 1/2c each, makes 2.5c per cu.ft.

add the frass and bokashi (or biolive) @ 1/2c each, and you're at 3.5c per cu. ft... your maximum target range.

minerals i run at 1/2 cup are : oyster shell OR dolomite lime, gypsum (not NPK ingredients)

minerals i run between 1/2 and 1 cup are: basalt OR glacial OR azomite

 

[Greenthumbs256]

with an ingredient list as diverse as yours, as far as the NPK ingredients go, i would not go more than 1/2 cup per cu.ft. with any of them (and i would exclude bone meal, and blood meal for sure).

your end goal as far as NPK should be no more than 3.5 cups total per cu.ft. (and a little less is fine too, you can always add more by topdressing).

example:
neem, alfalfa, kelp, crab, and fishbone meals @ 1/2c each, makes 2.5c per cu.ft.

add the frass and bokashi (or biolive) @ 1/2c each, and you're at 3.5c per cu. ft... your maximum target range.

minerals i run at 1/2 cup are : oyster shell OR dolomite lime, gypsum (not NPK ingredients)

minerals i run between 1/2 and 1 cup are: basalt OR glacial OR azomite

OK Thank you so much that makes a ton more sense now! I finally get it why I've been having some many issues and thinking my mixes were too hot which is bc they are very hot!!!! Lmfao dam OK I'm going to completely re work this now thanks for clearing that up!

 

[ShLUbY]

OK give me a few I'm gunna try and re work this whole thing and figure it out!
But what should I do about the fact that one tote is already mixed should I just cook it longer? Or maybe try to cut it with compost, ewc, and some more rice hauls?

Second blood, and bone meal I'll cut out all together! I'll go light on everything to add extra Boi live for more diversity! Can I group alfalfa, kelp, fish bone meal, and neem meal at 1/4 cup each per cu. Ft. And group some other or should I be adding everything as one

grouping should only occur between redundant ingredients. kelp, neem, fishbone, alfalfa and crab all have their own purposes and physical/chemical properties and therefore are not redundant. but you can run them at whatever proportion you want. there is no specific proportion for any ingredient, you can adjust the amounts to make the end result recipe complete.

you should be looking for purpose for adding an ingredient besides diversity.

example: kelp - micronutrients, trace minerals. crab - chitin source. alfalfa: growth simulants. fishbone meal - good phosphorus, enzymes, micronutrients. neem - pest deterrant. the NPK values are relevent too, but an added bonus and you still need to pay attention to what is lacking in the mix. Like the langebeinite we discussed earlier - source of K, Mg, and S. that would complete a good mix IMO.

 

[Greenthumbs256]

Also where would u classify the greensand? It's an amendment like kelp right? Or would it be considered grouped with the minerals

 

[ShLUbY]

Also where would u classify the greensand? It's an amendment like kelp right? Or would it be considered grouped with the minerals

its more of a mineral complex. mined rock. takes a while to break down completely, but is a good slow and steady source of K. kelp is quick to break down and quickly used up as it is not dense like the greensand is.

 

[Crab Pot]

respectfully, i have to disagree. i knew what my strains were capable of producing, and i found this mix to be lacking when i saw the results of several runs. by adding the fishbone meal and greensand i saw noticeable results immediately in yield weight with the same quality. coots mix lacks potassium IMO (some have pointed out that he uses the malted barley to make up for this, i did not use it), which i correlated with the lower yields than i was used to. never experienced nutrient burn or imbalances when adding these ingredients at these concentrations, and plants faded as normal (i even started topdressing at week 3 to carry them longer). I think anything above 4 cups is going to be too hot... and between 3 and 4 is pushing it. I'm testing a coots mix + biolive and greensand at 2/3 cup per cu.ft. right now. will definitely document the results in my grow thread. Personally, i think his mix is going to do fine as long as the blood meal doesn't delay flowering from having too much N. but if you look at the amount... its 1 cup in 6 cu.ft... hardly anything really. 2.5TBSP per cu.ft.

I see where your coming from but I have a difficult time accepting that adding as many addmendments as you are proposing isn’t going to be problematic. I was just using Coots mix as an example. I understand that Coots mix or anyone’s for that matter is unlikely to be balanced without a lab test. Like you, I experienced deficiencies with Coots mix and every other mix I’ve ever tried for that matter, and I’ve tried many mixes. I used to love mixing soil and my plants looked great in veg but deficiencies would often show up in flower, usually on just on a plant or two but it drove me nuts. Then one day I purchased a couple of yards of Kis Organic’s biochar soil (lab tested) and my grows improved enough where I will no longer be mixing my own indoor soil. Hell a yard of soil for $450 sounds expensive but it’s a no brainer for me. If I have any problems with my grows I know it’s unlikely my mix and more likely the environment. I’m in 25 gallon geopots and typically yield a half pound to a pound per pot.

Here’s a few shots from my current grow

No-till soil ,blumats, 4200k and a little knf











@ShLUbY i noticed you also are a Blumat user. We’re you able to get them dialed in? Have you tried packing coco coir around the ceramic tip on the carrots?

 

[ShLUbY]

I see where your coming from but I have a difficult time accepting that adding as many addmendments as you are proposing isn’t going to be problematic. I was just using Coots mix as an example. I understand that Coots mix or anyone’s for that matter is unlikely to be balanced without a lab test. Like you, I experienced deficiencies with Coots mix and every other mix I’ve ever tried for that matter, and I’ve tried many mixes. I used to love mixing soil and my plants looked great in veg but deficiencies would often show up in flower, usually on just on a plant or two but it drove me nuts. Then one day I purchased a couple of yards of Kis Organic’s biochar soil (lab tested) and my grows improved enough where I will no longer be mixing my own indoor soil. Hell a yard of soil for $450 sounds expensive but it’s a no brainer for me. If I have any problems with my grows I know it’s unlikely my mix and more likely the environment. I’m in 25 gallon geopots and typically yield a half pound to a pound per pot.

Here’s a few shots from my current grow

No-till soil ,blumats, 4200k and a little knf

View attachment 4123805
View attachment 4123809
View attachment 4123811
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@ShLUbY i noticed you also are a Blumat user. We’re you able to get them dialed in? Have you tried packing coco coir around the ceramic tip on the carrots?

nice looking quality! I'm even starting to get in the mind set that even a good soil has its own lifespan after being recycled so many times... and sometimes you just gotta restart from scratch to get back to square one. I'll be getting into those philosophies in my grow thread soon. I've had some important revelations in the last month or so.

my blumats started out really good for the first 12-18 months, but have gotten finicky over time. i've had them for about 2 years now I think... and they seem to be a little more prone to "runaways" recently. I take good care of them too. I emailed blumat about it and never even got a response from them... i am pretty dissapointed about that. Never tried to coco-tech around the tip... makes sense though. But yeah... as much as I like them, i'm now starting to work with pumice SIPs in plastic containers. I have the set up for them posted in my grow thread (somewhere in the most recent 10 pages) and so far... I'm loving the shit out of them. my plan is to dial in a flood and drain table with pumice SIPs and living soil later this year as an experiment. for now, i just use drip trays, pour the water in them, and let the SIP do the work! I think a flood and drain would be sexy as fuck though. probably have to increase the drainage portion of the mix to 45% though.

 

[Crab Pot]

Tell me this in my tote I mix around 6 cu ft. At a time! Should I be somewhere around 1c per cu ft total of certain groups of amendments together? Like alfalfa and kelp mixed would be 3 cups of each(for 6 cu ft) or would I add them all up together so it would only be on average 1 whole cup of each for my entire 6 cu ft tote

Add them all up. I would only add 4.5 - 6 cups (ex. of NPK in total balanced addmendments. @ShLUbY would add more. You’d have to ask him but I think he’s suggesting 12 - 18 cups of NPK. Neither of us know for sure, were just talking from our personal experiences. There are a lot of factors, pot/bed size, plant size, amount of plant material that gets composted back in the pots, etc.

Podcast #17 from Kis Organics on soil testing talks about readdmending and Tad recommends 7-14 lbs. with an average of 10 lbs. per yard of soil. He’s talking not only about the weight of the nutes but also the minerals. That calculates out to 0.26 lbs. and 0.51 lbs. per cu.ft. Or an average of 0.37 lbs. cu.ft.

6 cu.ft. x 0.26 lbs. = 1.56 lbs.
6 cu.ft. x 0.37 lbs.= 2.24 lbs
6 cu.ft. x 0.51 lbs. = 3.06 lbs.

Tad has years of experience consulting with large and small notill grows. He would probably tell you to add somewhere between 1.56 lbs. and 3.06 lbs. to the 6 cu.ft. of soil. I’m not sure how that works out in cups but you could weigh out to double check your measurement in cups.

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/podcast

Listen to the podcast. That should give you some additional insight. Then I would suggest mixing your NPK with your minerals and weigh it out. Now you will have all three of our recommendations. Pick one that your most comfortable with of average them all together.

 

[ShLUbY]

Add them all up. I would only add 4.5 - 6 cups (ex. of NPK in total balanced addmendments. @ShLUbY would add more. You’d have to ask him but I think he’s suggesting 12 - 18 cups of NPK. Neither of us know for sure, were just talking from our personal experiences. There are a lot of factors, pot/bed size, plant size, amount of plant material that gets composted back in the pots, etc.

Podcast #17 from Kis Organics on soil testing talks about readdmending and Tad recommends 7-14 lbs. with an average of 10 lbs. per yard of soil. He’s talking not only about the weight of the nutes but also the minerals. That calculates out to 0.26 lbs. and 0.51 lbs. per cu.ft. Or an average of 0.37 lbs. cu.ft.

6 cu.ft. x 0.26 lbs. = 1.56 lbs.
6 cu.ft. x 0.37 lbs.= 2.24 lbs
6 cu.ft. x 0.51 lbs. = 3.06 lbs.

Tad has years of experience consulting with large and small notill grows. He would probably tell you to add somewhere between 1.56 lbs. and 3.06 lbs. to the 6 cu.ft. of soil. I’m not sure how that works out in cups but you could weigh out to double check your measurement in cups.

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/podcast

Listen to the podcast. That should give you some additional insight. Then I would suggest mixing your NPK with your minerals and weigh it out. Now you will have all three of our recommendations. Pick one that your most comfortable with of average them all together.

hmmm i wonder what my amendments weight out to be in the mix that i use.... has me curious. guess i'll have to get the scale out when i mix up a batch this weekend and i'll let you know (if i remember LOL). I'll try and report back on this. and volume in cups is just gonna determine the weights of your amendments per cup. if you have dense amendments you're gonna have less volume per weight.

 

[Greenthumbs256]

hmmm i wonder what my amendments weight out to be in the mix that i use.... has me curious. guess i'll have to get the scale out when i mix up a batch this weekend and i'll let you know (if i remember LOL). I'll try and report back on this. and volume in cups is just gonna determine the weights of your amendments per cup. if you have dense amendments you're gonna have less volume per weight.

Very true like basalt to kelp would be no where the same the basalt I have which is locally sourced is very heavy and dence!

 

[Crab Pot]

nice looking quality! I'm even starting to get in the mind set that even a good soil has its own lifespan after being recycled so many times... and sometimes you just gotta restart from scratch to get back to square one. I'll be getting into those philosophies in my grow thread soon. I've had some important revelations in the last month or so.

my blumats started out really good for the first 12-18 months, but have gotten finicky over time. i've had them for about 2 years now I think... and they seem to be a little more prone to "runaways" recently. I take good care of them too. I emailed blumat about it and never even got a response from them... i am pretty dissapointed about that. Never tried to coco-tech around the tip... makes sense though. But yeah... as much as I like them, i'm now starting to work with pumice SIPs in plastic containers. I have the set up for them posted in my grow thread (somewhere in the most recent 10 pages) and so far... I'm loving the shit out of them. my plan is to dial in a flood and drain table with pumice SIPs and living soil later this year as an experiment. for now, i just use drip trays, pour the water in them, and let the SIP do the work! I think a flood and drain would be sexy as fuck though. probably have to increase the drainage portion of the mix to 45% though.

Right on... I’ve popped in to check your thread out a couple of times but I need to read it from the start. I like your style.

I’ve gone seven rounds with a soil so far but Mountain Organics on IG is on his 21st round in one of his no-till pots. His plants look flawless, he’s one of the dudes that started the original no-till thread over at IMag. He uses his used soil as the humus portion of his new soil mixes (1/3 peat, 1/3 pumice/lava rock, 1/3 humus mix) and he’s got a ton of worms in his pots, turning e everything into humus. How many rounds are you getting out of your mixes?

Coco apparently makes better contact around the porcelain tips of the Blumat carrots over soil. Worth a try but if I had the room I might consider SIP’s myself. I want to check out your flood and drain system, sounds interesting Flood in some knf, brother! I’m from the understanding that a constant moisture level is less stressful for the plants. Tad recommends a moisture of 80 - 120 mb for his Biochar soil mix. Kis Organics has a couple of podcast on Blumats and a lot of this information is discussed in there. Check it out, I think you well enjoy those podcasts. Tad also designs and sells Blumat systems for hobby and commercial gardens. Send him an email if you have any questions.

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/podcast

 

[Greenthumbs256]

So what's up with bio char I really don't see a need for it with the deversity I have with my amendments

 

[ShLUbY]

Right on... I’ve popped in to check your thread out a couple of times but I need to read it from the start. I like your style.

I’ve gone seven rounds with a soil so far but Mountain Organics on IG is on his 21st round in one of his no-till pots. His plants look flawless, he’s one of the dudes that started the original no-till thread over at IMag. He uses his used soil as the humus portion of his new soil mixes (1/3 peat, 1/3 pumice/lava rock, 1/3 humus mix) and he’s got a ton of worms in his pots, turning e everything into humus. How many rounds are you getting out of your mixes?

Coco apparently makes better contact around the porcelain tips of the Blumat carrots over soil. Worth a try but if I had the room I might consider SIP’s myself. I want to check out your flood and drain system, sounds interesting Flood in some knf, brother! I’m from the understanding that a constant moisture level is less stressful for the plants. Tad recommends a moisture of 80 - 120 mb for his Biochar soil mix. Kis Organics has a couple of podcast on Blumats and a lot of this information is discussed in there. Check it out, I think you well enjoy those podcasts. Tad also designs and sells Blumat systems for hobby and commercial gardens. Send him an email if you have any questions.

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/podcast

aha!... so honestly, i just came to the same revelation recently. my heavily recycled soils (practically 2 years running them) have basically turned into compost... hence the problem i've been seeing with my mix being slightly alkaline... the peat has been neutralized and once the S in the gypsum gets used up and neutralized the mix loses any acidic properties! I was going to make a mix with fresh peat, old soil as humus, and a little added aeration and amend as usual. So... my brain was on the right track after all. This really makes me feel happy! I have been chasing this problem for a few months now. upon recycling, the mix would be slightly acidic, but by the 4th week of flower... slightly alkaline. which was driving me crazy because the plants looked AMAZING. no deficiencies... other than a lack of expected yield lol. Glad I'm on the right thought process. Thanks for the info.

it's not my flood and drain system yet... but it will be eventually . Have yet to see anyone else doing it. I will definitely check out the podcasts. I appreciate the info, and i appreciate you checking out the thread! Just trying to document this organic journey to share with all! I love this crazy adventure and the culture that is growing around it.

 

[Olive Drab Green]

I see where your coming from but I have a difficult time accepting that adding as many addmendments as you are proposing isn’t going to be problematic. I was just using Coots mix as an example. I understand that Coots mix or anyone’s for that matter is unlikely to be balanced without a lab test. Like you, I experienced deficiencies with Coots mix and every other mix I’ve ever tried for that matter, and I’ve tried many mixes. I used to love mixing soil and my plants looked great in veg but deficiencies would often show up in flower, usually on just on a plant or two but it drove me nuts. Then one day I purchased a couple of yards of Kis Organic’s biochar soil (lab tested) and my grows improved enough where I will no longer be mixing my own indoor soil. Hell a yard of soil for $450 sounds expensive but it’s a no brainer for me. If I have any problems with my grows I know it’s unlikely my mix and more likely the environment. I’m in 25 gallon geopots and typically yield a half pound to a pound per pot.

Here’s a few shots from my current grow

No-till soil ,blumats, 4200k and a little knf

View attachment 4123805
View attachment 4123809
View attachment 4123811
View attachment 4123816
View attachment 4123817
View attachment 4123820




@ShLUbY i noticed you also are a Blumat user. We’re you able to get them dialed in? Have you tried packing coco coir around the ceramic tip on the carrots?

A widely diversified food source is a huge part and benefit of organics. You should see what I amend with, and how diverse each is.

 

[ShLUbY]

So what's up with bio char I really don't see a need for it with the deversity I have with my amendments

its just another way of sequestering nutrients in your soil. it has charged surfaces, just like peat, coco, pumice, lava rock, etc. but the unique thing about biochar is that is has (+) and (-) charged surfaces, where as the other have only (-) charged surfaces. porous spaces in the char provide homes for organisms, just like that of lava rock and pumice. Char is good stuff.

 

[Greenthumbs256]

its just another way of sequestering nutrients in your soil. it has charged surfaces, just like peat, coco, pumice, lava rock, etc. but the unique thing about biochar is that is has (+) and (-) charged surfaces, where as the other have only (-) charged surfaces. porous spaces in the char provide homes for organisms, just like that of lava rock and pumice. Char is good stuff.

Once I get what I'm working on locked down and not having any issues that will be next on my list to learn

 

[ShLUbY]

Once I get what I'm working on locked down and not having any issues that will be next on my list to learn

good idea. get one thing working first... then play around with it