Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Do you have a link? If i remember right the Vesta range is both cobs and strips, is it possible that the nrs are for cobs cause it doesnt make sense they have less lums/w than last gen.
2750G Tunable Strip Build - Driver Reccomendations
- Thread starter hominine
- Start date
HydroFood
Active Member
Yep. The new strips are all the way at the bottom past all the COBs. Called Vesta Edge. Not technically stated as Gen2 but quite different.
https://www.bridgelux.com/products/vesta-series
https://www.bridgelux.com/products/vesta-series
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
Hmm!
Vesta Edge series....? That sound like a strip made for corners or for the edge between wall and ceilling where the light is thrown out horizontally and not downwards. Specs are not better like the old Vestas but they have less watts with only 600mA nominal current. Not worth to wait, brother! Also the new Vesta COB's are not efficient enough.
I've searched their website and there is no new midpower diode mentioned as "coming soon". No new midpowers means no more efficient strips till now.
Still only smd2835 gen1 and gen2 but no gen3! Also no new 3030 or 5050 package, still 125-130lm/w max or lower.
For growing efficiency is goal no.1, 2. goal is spectrum.
But I've something other if you want CRI90.
You could mix CRI80 EBgen2 strips with 15-20% deep-red to get CRI89-91 if this was your intension. For instance 4000°k/CRI80 as base spectrum for vegging and 4k + deep-red = 3500°k/CRI90 for the flowering stage. It's anyway more efficient to realize high CRI light this way and this mixing technology is used since a long time. Osram has used white+deep red arrays for a long time for photographers, museums, etc.
A combo 4000°k + deep-red could reach 2,7μMol/J or more when you decide to run the EB's at half current. 1 or 2ft strips and the deep-red diodes could be driven in series cause they run with the same 350 - 700mA nominal.
For instance 2pcs 1ft. strips and 3 deep-red per row (for instance *=====*=====* l
would be 45,3 - 48v, 350-700mA, 16-33,6w per string, length 620mm min..
You could use an HLG-XXXH-48A or B to drive several strings in parallel and efficiency should be ~2,7μMol/j at 350mA and 2,55μMol/j at 700mA. And you could just use a 2mm thick aluminum sheet wide enough to mount strips and monos and add a frame from alu L channels on the backside to give the sheet more rigidity and have something to hang it up.
EBgen2 strips don't need heat sinks even at max. current. and the surface area is wide enough to keep the lamp below 50°C so there is enough room to add the deep-reds. An with the 1footers you get unbeatable flextibility because they cover almost every possible area. From an old PC case micro grow to a 1m² tent.. No problem!
Would be a 3500°k/CRI90 spectrum and could be used as all-in-one for germination, veg and bloom stage.
You could also use COB's in CRI90. Luminus CXM22 3500°k/CRI90 is for instance used in MIGRO's current lights and is better than Cree's 3590 and on par with Vero29 but you can get them for 19$. Vero29c cost ~30$.
Forget the Vesta's! If there is no upgrade soon available it makes no sense to buy them. There are lots of other strips available and a tunable spectrum can still be realized.
It's a nice spectrum and they are cheap and when efficiency doesn't matters cause of low energy costs for instance they will do the job. But to reach the efficiency you get from currently available strips you would need to run them pretty low, lower than half current. This means you would need 3 times more Vesta and run the at 350mA instead 1A. Costs would explode and you still not reach the 2,5μMol/j you can get from EBgen2, Samsung H-influx, Q-series.
HydroFood
Active Member
Damn thanks for all that!
I have stacks of Eb2’s laying around. That’s all I use so I am well versed in their capabilities. They have proven very well for me. I also have a few vests strips just cause I wanted to have some on hand threw them into my cart a long time ago.
The new edge strips are only 6mm wide and 21w nominal power. My curiosity always wins. I’m sure i will buy a handful of them just to check them out.
I also mix Eb2’s with Sunplus20 red and far red diodes for certain micro greens and herbs I grow. I never knew that equaled 90cri!
I have stacks of Eb2’s laying around. That’s all I use so I am well versed in their capabilities. They have proven very well for me. I also have a few vests strips just cause I wanted to have some on hand threw them into my cart a long time ago.
The new edge strips are only 6mm wide and 21w nominal power. My curiosity always wins. I’m sure i will buy a handful of them just to check them out.
I also mix Eb2’s with Sunplus20 red and far red diodes for certain micro greens and herbs I grow. I never knew that equaled 90cri!
SSR
Well-Known Member
Mount them or buy them on star pcbs
SSR
Well-Known Member
@Randomblame I don't know how to calculate this and am still working on a spectrometer.
What would be the rough colour temperature of 3000K and 5000k strips mixed 50/50 and run at the same power.
Also, would you mind answering a couple questions by pm/dm
Thanks for any info
What would be the rough colour temperature of 3000K and 5000k strips mixed 50/50 and run at the same power.
Also, would you mind answering a couple questions by pm/dm
Thanks for any info
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
A spectrometer would show you ~4000°k although the SPD curve looks a little different to the 4k spectrum because its a mix.
4k has around 12% blue and more like 12% can be already counter productive. 3k yields a few % better than 4k and 4k a few percent better like 5k. But 4k keeps the plant in a better shape so it fits better for vegging. I would mix ⅓ 4k(HLG-150) and ⅔ 3k(HLG-320), each spectrum on a separate driver. Would be ~500w and could be used for a 4x 4' area.
This way you could use 4k for vegging(up to 160w) and 3k or 3350°k for the flowering stage(up to 520w). With dimmable drivers you could mix it pretty easy and ~3300°k yields almost the same like 3k. The Meanwell drivers are available from 40 to 600w so you'll find for sure something that fits perfectly with your needs.
If you have more questions feel free to ask here or open a new thread and mention me there. You'll get a few more answers this way cuz I'm not the only helpful member here. Pretty sure we can figure out something together..
SSR
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply @Randomblame
I'm building a fixture for a friend because they like mines but they've pretty specific requests.
8 mixable channels (solved using an stm32 407 VET6 cos it was cheap and overkill lol)
I'm not the most clued up on spectrums but because I've messed about for a few years they seem to think I know it all and I've told them I clearly don't.
I use the term messed about as a few people in the past have been really up themselves when you call it "backyard science" etc
Ive asked questions on a few of my own threads with no luck, sorry but you may be in for a bit of a time of it here lol.
If you or anyone knows the diodes used in the EB strips it would be great if you point me to the part number or similar please.
My friend would prefer all 8 channels available on each strip for better mixing as they intend to run them soft and close to the canopy so supplemental strips with bridgelux strips won't give the same spectral results.
Hope that all made sense, shit time right now so it's a wake n bake today
Thanks very much BTW
I'm building a fixture for a friend because they like mines but they've pretty specific requests.
8 mixable channels (solved using an stm32 407 VET6 cos it was cheap and overkill lol)
I'm not the most clued up on spectrums but because I've messed about for a few years they seem to think I know it all and I've told them I clearly don't.
I use the term messed about as a few people in the past have been really up themselves when you call it "backyard science" etc
Ive asked questions on a few of my own threads with no luck, sorry but you may be in for a bit of a time of it here lol.
If you or anyone knows the diodes used in the EB strips it would be great if you point me to the part number or similar please.
My friend would prefer all 8 channels available on each strip for better mixing as they intend to run them soft and close to the canopy so supplemental strips with bridgelux strips won't give the same spectral results.
Hope that all made sense, shit time right now so it's a wake n bake today
Thanks very much BTW
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
Here they are...
Digikey or arrow should have them and if not I would visit the Bridgelux home page and try to find a local distributor.
But I would not mix to much spectrums. 3k and 4k is enough, maybe 2700°k but no more cool white.
Maybe something like that:
2 channels neutral white/4000°k for vegging, maybe with an UVA, purple red channel
3 channels warm white/1x 2700°k + 2x 3000°k, all white channels together would have ~3300°k
2 UVA, purple, red and deep channels to fill the gaps and boost efficiency and PS
(terpene increasing UV and purple on request)
1 far-red channel to push emerson effect with lights on and for end of day treatments(5-15mins with light off)
Voilá! 8 channels and lots of possible spectrum configurations.
But make sure the flowering spectrum has less than 12% in the blue range(400-480nm), 4k has already 12%. In veg you can use more blue to keep the plants short and bushy but in the flowering stage more like 12% would be counter productive and would reduce yields. UVA and purple must be counted as blue cause it has the same signaling effect (I calculate is as 0,8 blue).
And finally, that's the diodes used on EBgen2
Digikey or arrow should have them and if not I would visit the Bridgelux home page and try to find a local distributor.
But I would not mix to much spectrums. 3k and 4k is enough, maybe 2700°k but no more cool white.
Maybe something like that:
2 channels neutral white/4000°k for vegging, maybe with an UVA, purple red channel
3 channels warm white/1x 2700°k + 2x 3000°k, all white channels together would have ~3300°k
2 UVA, purple, red and deep channels to fill the gaps and boost efficiency and PS
(terpene increasing UV and purple on request)
1 far-red channel to push emerson effect with lights on and for end of day treatments(5-15mins with light off)
Voilá! 8 channels and lots of possible spectrum configurations.
But make sure the flowering spectrum has less than 12% in the blue range(400-480nm), 4k has already 12%. In veg you can use more blue to keep the plants short and bushy but in the flowering stage more like 12% would be counter productive and would reduce yields. UVA and purple must be counted as blue cause it has the same signaling effect (I calculate is as 0,8 blue).
And finally, that's the diodes used on EBgen2
Bignutes
Well-Known Member
That is in the eye of the beholder....no???? Wouldn't spectrum be goal number 1 and efficiency number 2. High quality weed yield a higher price, the sun doesn't lie.
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Randomblame
Well-Known Member
Hmm, maybe in Cali bud I do not know anyone here who pays you more for guerrilla weed.
I get far better quatily from LED! Especially since I also add UVB.
No wind, no rain, no other weather effects... Trichomes get two times bigger indoors, at least where I life.
Potency is much higher, buds are much denser, no fungal invects, no insect frass and as clean as it can be.
I call indoor weed better quality!
You maybe don't get the same yield because of height limitations indoors but if you don't life in an area near the equator or in 2000m above zero where you have typ. high UVB intensity you'll get better quality indoors.
Believe me, I've grown lots of plants outdoors near the 50th latitude in the past 30 years and it was not bad but barely over 10%. Nothing that rocks your socks! And I've grown one and the same strain for years in- and outdoors (Mexican Sativa, SensiSeeds).
Better efficiency means automaticly more yield per watt and the better LED spectrum leads already to better quality and potency. If I want high potency/quality I chose an according strain like SSH, GG#4 or GSC. But when I want a higher yield I need more light. I can either use more watts or LED's with better efficiency to archive that. And the other thing is, without a greenhouse non of the three strains would finish under natural sunlight without getting but rot.
So outdoor weed quality depends mainly on where you live. If I would life in the blue mountains of Jamaica I would for sure grow outdoors but in Alaska, Sweden or Danmark you are better adviced when you grow indoors.
I get far better quatily from LED! Especially since I also add UVB.
No wind, no rain, no other weather effects... Trichomes get two times bigger indoors, at least where I life.
Potency is much higher, buds are much denser, no fungal invects, no insect frass and as clean as it can be.
I call indoor weed better quality!
You maybe don't get the same yield because of height limitations indoors but if you don't life in an area near the equator or in 2000m above zero where you have typ. high UVB intensity you'll get better quality indoors.
Believe me, I've grown lots of plants outdoors near the 50th latitude in the past 30 years and it was not bad but barely over 10%. Nothing that rocks your socks! And I've grown one and the same strain for years in- and outdoors (Mexican Sativa, SensiSeeds).
Better efficiency means automaticly more yield per watt and the better LED spectrum leads already to better quality and potency. If I want high potency/quality I chose an according strain like SSH, GG#4 or GSC. But when I want a higher yield I need more light. I can either use more watts or LED's with better efficiency to archive that. And the other thing is, without a greenhouse non of the three strains would finish under natural sunlight without getting but rot.
So outdoor weed quality depends mainly on where you live. If I would life in the blue mountains of Jamaica I would for sure grow outdoors but in Alaska, Sweden or Danmark you are better adviced when you grow indoors.
Bignutes
Well-Known Member
Would putting strips in series with a CC driver with single dimming control input and two independent outputs work? You will be able to control both cool white and warm white simultaneously, offsetting one another. Would dimming still work in this scenario?
Randomblame
Well-Known Member
Nope! You can dimm two drivers simultaneously by using a 50k poti instead a 100k one but two independent outputs you could only realize with additional DC to DC drivers.
I would also not recommend to drive more like 2 or 3 strips in series cause most strip pcb's have a 50V limit.
And to drive them separately you would need two drivers, each for one spectrum. Instead an HLG-320 an HLG-240 and a HLG-120. Each with its own dimmer or both on one 50k dimmer to dimm them simultaneously.
You could also use two or more DC-to DC drivers and one big AC to DC driver but you would lost ~3-4% driver efficiency when you use 2 drivers. These LDD's are also limited and the highest output is ~50w which means you would need 5 or more of them for an HLG-240. They are often used in aquarium lights where efficiency doesn't matters.
So the easiest way is to use two AC to DC CV/CC drivers, a smaller one for the coolwhite(for instance an HLG-120) and a bigger one for the warmwhites(HLG-240). For Samsung F, H or H-influx series you need either a 24 or a 48v driver (HLG-240H-48 A or B would work) and for Bridgelux EBgen2 series you can take a 20 or 42v driver(HLG-240H-20A or B for instance).
HLG CV/CC driver are available from 12 to 54v. And A veresions have a ±3% voltage adjustment range, which means an HLG-xxxh-54A can run with up to 60v.
But why the heck two independent circuits? You can just connect the warm and coolwhite strips in parallel to the same driver. They have almost the same voltage and this way you only have one dimmer to dimm them simultaneously. And don't worry about thermal runaways. You can set a voltage limit with A version drivers and the B version are anyway limited to its nominal voltage. And HLG driver with 20v constant voltage output limits the current flow on EBgen2 for instance at ~1050-1100mA even if you run only one 2ft strip on an HLG-240H-20B. The voltage limit of 20v allows only up tp 1100mA.
With A version you could set the voltage to 20,5v to allow up to 1,4A.
But a 21v limit for example would allow up to 1750mA which is already above the strip limit and could cause a damage.
I recommend you to visit LEDgardeners website. There you'll find lots of how-to's and example builds for strip or COB based DIY lights, all you need to know about Meanwell HLG/ELG drivers and there is also a nice calculator tool to check different lamp layouts and find the best one.
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
Efficiency is king once you have a flowerable spectrum. Very few flowers at 5000k even if its the best efficiency spectrum, and noone does it with straigth blue 450nm only which is even more efficient. In the end you allways trade some efficiency for spectrum, the question is how far do you wanna go with that trade.
Bignutes
Well-Known Member
I wanted to use the Vesta's with the ability to control spectrum in 3-5 block segments throughout the day, more red morning and night, blue during the middle. I would like to have hooked up the pot. with an ADC/wifi interface coupled with an App like Avi-on to set the schedule.
Having both dimming and color control is described in Bridgelux's setup guide, it shows three types of hookups to get both to change, but as I try to source splitters in the size range I want or a driver with two independent outputs I get nowhere.
Setup 1:
Setup 2:
Setup 3:
Its confusing me as to how a single input for a pot. on the driver can change both color spectrum as well as dimming, or is their definition of dimming meaning turning down WW and while turning up CW? In the end, I would be fine with just altering the spectrum without dimming.
I am quickly realizing that even though I am really technical, but when it comes to electrical I am a newb.
Having both dimming and color control is described in Bridgelux's setup guide, it shows three types of hookups to get both to change, but as I try to source splitters in the size range I want or a driver with two independent outputs I get nowhere.
Setup 1:
Setup 2:
Setup 3:
Its confusing me as to how a single input for a pot. on the driver can change both color spectrum as well as dimming, or is their definition of dimming meaning turning down WW and while turning up CW? In the end, I would be fine with just altering the spectrum without dimming.
I am quickly realizing that even though I am really technical, but when it comes to electrical I am a newb.
Bignutes
Well-Known Member
I did come across this driver, seemed pretty promising but it only dim's to 50% of max current on each channel and the current on each channel aren't equally shared. I like the driver and scheduling with an app, anyone have any recommendations on a light strip mixture that could use this and be effective?
TEKNIK
Well-Known Member
The best way to dim is to switch drivers off completely, when you dim an led driver the power factor changes dramatically. If you wanted to have a system where the blue increases during the day just run the blue channel on a separate driver and timer. I will try to make a video regarding dimmable drivers and power factors soon to show people why it's best to have full power or off. Depending on how much you care about power consumption it is a big deal for many.
Bignutes
Well-Known Member
I agree, power consumption is a big deal with many but is it short sighted? I think I am on the other side of the fence spend an extra 5 cents/gram in electricity to get more than 5 cents per gram value in return. If the perceived worth is $10/gram store bought or even $1/gram home grown then an extra 5 cents/gram is a pinch of coon shit.
From the spec sheet on an hlg-240H. Efficiency drops off rapidly below 30% dimming (at 76% at 10% dim) but from 30% to 100% efficiency is fairly static between 88-90%.
A lot is said about lum/watt but this metric is made for our human eye and our eye responds more effectively to green light so is lum/watt really all that applicable to plants? I suppose it can't be completely discounted but offset by things like CRI, grow conditions, mutually beneficial effects from different wavelengths in tandem (like the Emerson effect or green light being a more effective photosynthesizer at higher lighting intensities). Plants would need their own measurement, par is about the best insofar.......the best way to circumvent guessing about what measurement system holds water and what wavelengths/absolute spectrum intensity/charts etc are better is to bypass all of these metrics and just produce the equivalent of the sun - no guessing or trial and error required. It takes out all the unknowns related to spectrum. The masses of growers are infusing this general concept with adding UV, IR at dawn/dusk and are slowly filling in the spectrum. Having some fun bantering about it and growing some great weed along the way. It will be nice when someone figures out a cost effective and simple method to bring the sun inside.
From the spec sheet on an hlg-240H. Efficiency drops off rapidly below 30% dimming (at 76% at 10% dim) but from 30% to 100% efficiency is fairly static between 88-90%.
A lot is said about lum/watt but this metric is made for our human eye and our eye responds more effectively to green light so is lum/watt really all that applicable to plants? I suppose it can't be completely discounted but offset by things like CRI, grow conditions, mutually beneficial effects from different wavelengths in tandem (like the Emerson effect or green light being a more effective photosynthesizer at higher lighting intensities). Plants would need their own measurement, par is about the best insofar.......the best way to circumvent guessing about what measurement system holds water and what wavelengths/absolute spectrum intensity/charts etc are better is to bypass all of these metrics and just produce the equivalent of the sun - no guessing or trial and error required. It takes out all the unknowns related to spectrum. The masses of growers are infusing this general concept with adding UV, IR at dawn/dusk and are slowly filling in the spectrum. Having some fun bantering about it and growing some great weed along the way. It will be nice when someone figures out a cost effective and simple method to bring the sun inside.