Seed banks (F1,F2 and so on)

[Jimmy the vest uk]

So i been at it for over ten years now and have realised the best way to really learn is to do your own experiments and tests rather than just preach what someone else has already said before.
I used to read about a new technique and then go try it out on ALL of my plants where now if i want to try a new technique i will only choose 1 cutting of each different strain i have to see how it responds.
It takes alot longer to learn from experience than google research but im happy making slow real progress and still consider myself a student in this game.
I started off growing out cuttings that i could get hold of in my local area, exodus cheese, Psychoberry and lemon haze and they were easy work.
Then came the designer strains that are everywhere today and so to keep with the times i started popping beans to try find something more modern and what a nightmare it has been.
After a few hundred beans over a couple years i have only managed to find 1 plant that i would consider a great find in terms of ticking all the boxes, i think i now understand why.
I was getting regular f1 beans looking to find a keeper.
Recently i decided to get some beans from a breeder called karma genetics and it was a different experience altogether and for half the price.
More uniform plants, less variation, and overall stronger healthy more resilient.
I have heard the name pollon chuckers going about and i think i am a victim of this viscous practice lol.
So my point is am i right to say that breeders that have worked a line are able to give you beans that they know are gonna perform well compared to just selling you the first beans from the first cross of 2 well known strains which i now call F1 fuckabouts.
If you feel to say derrrr everyone knows this feel free to do so, im just looking to get this topic done and dusted in my head and look forward to being able to choose the right breeders in future and having an overall better experience each time i try hunt a keeper pheno.
Thanks all

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

breeders are people...there are all kinds. some breeders take pride in their work, and will put in the effort to get fairly stable strains established before they release them, because they want people to be happy to use the strains they produce, and want to have a good name.
then you have the cash grabbers, who design a pretty logo and sell beans as fast as they can produce them, with little thought to establishing stable strains to work from...most of them are probably growing out plots of regs for seeds, next to each other, which are crossing each other, then getting taken inside to get feminized, after they're already polluted with half a dozen strains of pollen...
so, it's kind of hard to tell what you're going to get when you go with anyone new, till you try their gear once, and see what you get

 

[3rd Monkey]

I dabble a little bit in breeding for my own use, and F1s are usually unstable in terms of getting that happy medium. I have over a thousand seeds that are now F2, and while they are more stable towards what I want, they still need more work to get better, more consistent results.

As far as breeders in general, I prefer to go with the tried and true. There's all these different names and different breeders putting shit under the same name with different crosses... It's a crap shoot when trying new stuff.

I tend not to like to pay $50 a seed, BUT if it's a stable strain with lots of growers behind it, it's hard to resist given how hard it is to come by "pure" genetics where I'm at. Not to mention the money you save on buying shit seeds and wasting time growing them.

Example, I found an Orange Cookie seed in a dispensary bud. It's clone only so I figured what the hell and pooped it. The sonofabitch is growing lopsided lol.

So quality genetics are worth the money, even at the upfront cost which is sometimes a LOT. Then again, a new LED will cost you $300-$500 for a decent one... Just to grow bagseed or shit genetics? Nah lol.

Good topic.

 

[hillbill]

Seedfinder had maybe 2500 strains less than 10 years ago and now lists 14,442 strains and 762 “Breeders”!

 

[3rd Monkey]

Seedfinder had maybe 2500 strains less than 10 years ago and now lists 14,442 strains and 762 “Breeders”!

Exactly. How many "new" strains can they come up with lol.

 

[hillbill]

What is happening is every new cross creates a new “growth point” which produces more “strains” which will themselves do the same so it is and will be a geometric growth pattern and 100,000 “strains” may not be far off.

Seems we might end up with medicated goo! Dear Mr Fantasy!

 

[3rd Monkey]

What is happening is every new cross creates a new “growth point” which produces more “strains” which will themselves do the same so it is and will be a geometric growth pattern and 100,000 “strains” may not be far off.

Seems we might end up with medicated goo! Dear Mr Fantasy!

That may be, but they don't call it "pheno hunting" for no reason.

 

[Jimmy the vest uk]

Thanks all for fastreplys

 

[doogledore]

Total novice here looking to learn more about genetics and phenotypes...currently cranking through strain hunters on youtube. I come across a lot of sites like this: https://www.alchimiaweb.com/en/ that present some information but I feel like the whole purpose of the content is to convince me I need to buy something at the end. I've also found that there's a lot of conflicting information out there on sites such as Leafly.

For the experienced growers out there, besides your own knowledge and experience, where do you turn for a quick unbiased reference on genetics?

 

[3rd Monkey]

Total novice here looking to learn more about genetics and phenotypes...currently cranking through strain hunters on youtube. I come across a lot of sites like this: https://www.alchimiaweb.com/en/ that present some information but I feel like the whole purpose of the content is to convince me I need to buy something at the end. I've also found that there's a lot of conflicting information out there on sites such as Leafly.

For the experienced growers out there, besides your own knowledge and experience, where do you turn for a quick unbiased reference on genetics?

Other growers.

 

[torontoke]

I would generally prefer an f2 over f1 or any other finial generation tbh
F2 is where you get the largest pool of variety in the phenos.
They are also generally cheaper and you feel less obligated to baby them.
F1 are ok for trying a small sample of a given cross but f2 opens the magic imo

I think if you want a stable consistent plant to run a monocrop or whatever other reason then you should keep a mother of a known good plant and forget about seeds altogether

 

[hillbill]

I like the F1s since they are more uniform but I can always make F2s and do so every Autumn. Currently running F2s in CopperChem and vaping Sleeskunk f2! If I am buying F2s or whatever I wanna know. Always have stable IBLs around for chucks.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I would generally prefer an f2 over f1 or any other finial generation tbh
F2 is where you get the largest pool of variety in the phenos.
They are also generally cheaper and you feel less obligated to baby them.
F1 are ok for trying a small sample of a given cross but f2 opens the magic imo

I think if you want a stable consistent plant to run a monocrop or whatever other reason then you should keep a mother of a known good plant and forget about seeds altogether

depends on your situation though, i would love to have room to pheno hunt and cross breed just to see what comes of it, but my space is at a premium, and i don't have room for more than one experiment at a time...so i want something more stable to begin with, i don't have time to sort through undesirable phenos, that puts me a month behind on my schedule...

 

[torontoke]

depends on your situation though, i would love to have room to pheno hunt and cross breed just to see what comes of it, but my space is at a premium, and i don't have room for more than one experiment at a time...so i want something more stable to begin with, i don't have time to sort through undesirable phenos, that puts me a month behind on my schedule...

Right
Which is why I said I myself prefer the f2 to hunt through as many phenos as possible but for someone like yourself that wants the same plant over n over then a mother with monthly clones prolly makes the most sense. Much more dependable then seeds from any breeder in any generation

 

[Thundercat]

So i been at it for over ten years now and have realised the best way to really learn is to do your own experiments and tests rather than just preach what someone else has already said before.
I used to read about a new technique and then go try it out on ALL of my plants where now if i want to try a new technique i will only choose 1 cutting of each different strain i have to see how it responds.
It takes alot longer to learn from experience than google research but im happy making slow real progress and still consider myself a student in this game.
I started off growing out cuttings that i could get hold of in my local area, exodus cheese, Psychoberry and lemon haze and they were easy work.
Then came the designer strains that are everywhere today and so to keep with the times i started popping beans to try find something more modern and what a nightmare it has been.
After a few hundred beans over a couple years i have only managed to find 1 plant that i would consider a great find in terms of ticking all the boxes, i think i now understand why.
I was getting regular f1 beans looking to find a keeper.
Recently i decided to get some beans from a breeder called karma genetics and it was a different experience altogether and for half the price.
More uniform plants, less variation, and overall stronger healthy more resilient.
I have heard the name pollon chuckers going about and i think i am a victim of this viscous practice lol.
So my point is am i right to say that breeders that have worked a line are able to give you beans that they know are gonna perform well compared to just selling you the first beans from the first cross of 2 well known strains which i now call F1 fuckabouts.
If you feel to say derrrr everyone knows this feel free to do so, im just looking to get this topic done and dusted in my head and look forward to being able to choose the right breeders in future and having an overall better experience each time i try hunt a keeper pheno.
Thanks all

If you want to reduce the amount of random variety from the beans your getting don't buy F1s or f2s, look for breeders that have worked the lines out to f4+ thats when you start to see some actual stablized genetics. You can pop one pack of seeds and get 1-2 phenotypes instead of 5-6. You will get the truest representation of what the breeder wants when you grow out IBL lines that have actually been worked. F1 and F2 beans don't have any work in them. I'm not trying to be rude to the breeders, but its just fact.

 

[Jimmy the vest uk]

breeders are people...there are all kinds. some breeders take pride in their work, and will put in the effort to get fairly stable strains established before they release them, because they want people to be happy to use the strains they produce, and want to have a good name.
then you have the cash grabbers, who design a pretty logo and sell beans as fast as they can produce them, with little thought to establishing stable strains to work from...most of them are probably growing out plots of regs for seeds, next to each other, which are crossing each other, then getting taken inside to get feminized, after they're already polluted with half a dozen strains of pollen...
so, it's kind of hard to tell what you're going to get when you go with anyone new, till you try their gear once, and see what you get

Thanks for reply roger, do you have a favourite seed bank?

 

[Jimmy the vest uk]

I dabble a little bit in breeding for my own use, and F1s are usually unstable in terms of getting that happy medium. I have over a thousand seeds that are now F2, and while they are more stable towards what I want, they still need more work to get better, more consistent results.

As far as breeders in general, I prefer to go with the tried and true. There's all these different names and different breeders putting shit under the same name with different crosses... It's a crap shoot when trying new stuff.

I tend not to like to pay $50 a seed, BUT if it's a stable strain with lots of growers behind it, it's hard to resist given how hard it is to come by "pure" genetics where I'm at. Not to mention the money you save on buying shit seeds and wasting time growing them.

Example, I found an Orange Cookie seed in a dispensary bud. It's clone only so I figured what the hell and pooped it. The sonofabitch is growing lopsided lol.

So quality genetics are worth the money, even at the upfront cost which is sometimes a LOT. Then again, a new LED will cost you $300-$500 for a decent one... Just to grow bagseed or shit genetics? Nah lol.

Good topic.

Personally i have had worse results with the more expensive seed banks but day to day i do live by the rule that you pay for what you get

 

[3rd Monkey]

Personally i have had worse results with the more expensive seed banks but day to day i do live by the rule that you pay for what you get

I've had mixed results as well.

As far as breeders go, I prefer Greenhouse, Humboldt, and Dinafem. G13 wasn't bad, though not great for me.

I haven't bought seeds in a while and I'll probably make a purchase soon. The grow journal section is pretty telling. See what everybody is running and take your pick lol.

 

[Jimmy the vest uk]

Total novice here looking to learn more about genetics and phenotypes...currently cranking through strain hunters on youtube. I come across a lot of sites like this: https://www.alchimiaweb.com/en/ that present some information but I feel like the whole purpose of the content is to convince me I need to buy something at the end. I've also found that there's a lot of conflicting information out there on sites such as Leafly.

For the experienced growers out there, besides your own knowledge and experience, where do you turn for a quick unbiased reference on genetics?

%%

I've had mixed results as well.

As far as breeders go, I prefer Greenhouse, Humboldt, and Dinafem. G13 wasn't bad, though not great for me.

I haven't bought seeds in a while and I'll probably make a purchase soon. The grow journal section is pretty telling. See what everybody is running and take your pick lol.

so do you prefer regular seeds or feminized seeds because i dont think greenhouse sell regulars and i know humboldt have a small collection of regs which i would like to try after i get rid of what i have in the fridge. Just curious because i like to find a mother plant to clone from and everyone has different views when it comes to keeping feminized seeds as mothers to clone from, how do you get on with this? Cheers mate

 

[Jimmy the vest uk]

If you want to reduce the amount of random variety from the beans your getting don't buy F1s or f2s, look for breeders that have worked the lines out to f4+ thats when you start to see some actual stablized genetics. You can pop one pack of seeds and get 1-2 phenotypes instead of 5-6. You will get the truest representation of what the breeder wants when you grow out IBL lines that have actually been worked. F1 and F2 beans don't have any work in them. I'm not trying to be rude to the breeders, but its just fact.

Not many breeders state what generation the seeds are, i agree with your comment 100 per cent,thanks for reply