Seed banks (F1,F2 and so on)

[Thundercat]

Not many breeders state what generation the seeds are, i agree with your comment 100 per cent,thanks for reply

You are correct, not many strains are labeled well lol. You gotta look for "IBL" lines. Also many breeders can be contacted with questions about the genetics especially if you don't act like a shmoo when you contact them .

 

[3rd Monkey]

%%

so do you prefer regular seeds or feminized seeds because i dont think greenhouse sell regulars and i know humboldt have a small collection of regs which i would like to try after i get rid of what i have in the fridge. Just curious because i like to find a mother plant to clone from and everyone has different views when it comes to keeping feminized seeds as mothers to clone from, how do you get on with this? Cheers mate

I don't have a preference for seeds. Makes no difference to me. I like to have males for breeding, so I will buy regs of a strain if I really like it.

Why would feminized seeds have anything to do with a mother plant?

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

Thanks for reply roger, do you have a favourite seed bank?

i like a few, the vault is like old faithful, i've always had good luck with seedsman, and i've made a few orders from Canuck lately, and liked what i've gotten.

 

[hillbill]

Peak Seeds BC offer F1s and IBLs and Mike's lines have been worked for years, true breeder.

 

[Jimmy the vest uk]

I don't have a preference for seeds. Makes no difference to me. I like to have males for breeding, so I will buy regs of a strain if I really like it.

Why would feminized seeds have anything to do with a mother plant?

What i mean is from my experience every time i have kept a plant around that is from feminized seed it has eventually turned on me and started growing balls of some kind, sometimes due to something that i have done different but at times i havent been able to work out what stress caused it to happen especially after a good few problem free runs. In my experience regular seeds have been more resilient to stress thats just what i have found myself, so was wondering your opinion.
To be honest i have always had a better experience growing out feminized seed and theres a much larger selection out there to choose from, maybe i have just been unlucky and there no different from regs when keeping a mother plant what does everyone think?

 

[Cwrighty9420]

Little off topic apologies, but does anyone remember that juicy fruit strain that actually smelled and tasted like the chewing gum juicy fruit? If so what’s the best breeder to get seeds from, haven’t seen it in like 7-8 years and would love to run a pack to see if I can find the chewing gum pheno apologies for off topic again

 

[CoB_nUt]

Little off topic apologies, but does anyone remember that juicy fruit strain that actually smelled and tasted like the chewing gum juicy fruit? If so what’s the best breeder to get seeds from, haven’t seen it in like 7-8 years and would love to run a pack to see if I can find the chewing gum pheno apologies for off topic again

Indy Bubblegum comes to mind.Or BOG's Bubble.

 

[xtsho]

People need to realize that with the ridiculous prices people are paying for seeds that everyone and their brother is chucking pollen, making up some new name, a fancy logo, etc... and are selling crosses of other peoples crosses. It's not breeding at all. More like seed factories which is something myself and many others can do. Anyone can make F1's which account for a large amount of the seed offerings. All you need to do is buy a couple five packs of different strains, grow them, keep the males, and pollinate the females. Bam! You just made an F1 cross. I have seeds I made myself that will grow into plants as good as what people are paying $10 - $20 a seed for. The seed industry is following the same path as the nutrient industry. Cool names, fancy labels, etc... It's one big money grab and there are plenty of people ready to give their money away for some F1's.

I've made over 20 crosses myself. I have F1's, F2's, and am going to have F3's here in a little bit. I'm currently working on a line I'm going to take all the way to seven generations which should make it a new generation. I didn't start with other peoples crosses. I started with landraces. I think by the time I'm finished with this particular line that I'll have done more actual breeding than a good portion of these so called breeders chucking pollen.

This is the path I'm taking.

 

[Observe & Report]

Just curious because i like to find a mother plant to clone from and everyone has different views when it comes to keeping feminized seeds as mothers to clone from, how do you get on with this?

There is no problem. It's just another myth flying around. Maybe 30 years ago, when people made fems by letting buds hang until they sprouted nanners, there were issues but none of the fem seeds available in stores today are made that way.

 

[Chip Green]

xtsho, once again I applaud your generosity.
Thank you for that visual representation. I myself have a fledgling brainchild of that process, but my novice understanding of these methods can make grasping how it actually works extremely irritating....

 

[xtsho]

xtsho, once again I applaud your generosity.
Thank you for that visual representation. I myself have a fledgling brainchild of that process, but my novice understanding of these methods can make grasping how it actually works extremely irritating....

I didn't make the chart. I found it on the internet. It apparently came from someone called shantibaba. He is apparently involved with Green House Seed Company, CBD Crew, and Mr Nice seeds. Just thought I'd throw that out there crediting the author. I don't want to be accused of plagiarism.

 

[Dr. Who]

If you want to reduce the amount of random variety from the beans your getting don't buy F1s or f2s, look for breeders that have worked the lines out to f4+ thats when you start to see some actual stablized genetics. You can pop one pack of seeds and get 1-2 phenotypes instead of 5-6. You will get the truest representation of what the breeder wants when you grow out IBL lines that have actually been worked. F1 and F2 beans don't have any work in them. I'm not trying to be rude to the breeders, but its just fact.

Stabilization is not outbreeding lines 4&5 times (in fact, once you start going over those amounts (even the 5's show some) you begin to get less vigor and odd growth structure in the plants.

Your talking about backed or cubed lines. These have been back crossed with original fathers or mothers to stabilize the trait's you've isolated in the pheno hunts. You go out to F2's to shorten the hunt and highlight the good. Then back her to the desired in...

Inbreeding can isolate those things your looking for too. ResDog (sign of the cross) did some insane inbreeding with Sour Diesel. He had a SSSD that was off the hook.
Thing is with inbreeding. You hit that loss of vigor, faster.... Going over 5 is not good in any breeding program...

This is something I'm just wrapping up.
Super Silver Sour Diesel Haze X Skywalker OG X Chem #4 The chosen one, has been backed to the SSSDH male by clones of the male til this completed form.

Silver Dog Walker


This is over 2 years of work to get here.....Look, I'm not saying I'm the best, or even real good at breeding. The biggest thing is what you pick to cross. I had some good teachers.....
This is my first full on breeding project since the cop infestation a few years back. Cpl of pollen chucks but, this project. I went full on into it.

She smells of Sandlewood, citrus, and OG
She smokes clean.
Buzz is longer lasting and has a nice visual/creative start before the Indica side comes in. Kinda GG like but, not as potent....24-25% area
She is very frosty and as she bulks. The leaves are sort of absorbed by the big beefy, dense buds. She has exceptional node spacing, as you can see.

A fresh group of clones have been started for further testing.

This pic was posted yesterday in a "What is done look like" type of example. This one is days away.

This Christmas some people are getting her clones....
Beans to storage and maybe, maybe some S1's might be done.

 

[Dr. Who]

If you want to reduce the amount of random variety from the beans your getting don't buy F1s or f2s, look for breeders that have worked the lines out to f4+ thats when you start to see some actual stablized genetics. You can pop one pack of seeds and get 1-2 phenotypes instead of 5-6. You will get the truest representation of what the breeder wants when you grow out IBL lines that have actually been worked. F1 and F2 beans don't have any work in them. I'm not trying to be rude to the breeders, but its just fact.

In the strain being developed above.....This is the strain that in F1 pheno hunting.....I was seeing as much as 12 distinct pheno's in early hunting. You got used to the pheno's as they presented themselves. Took awhile to find some other, far less common pheno's come out of those first pairings. One of them turned into the "Chosen one" that began the next step....

IBL lines can isolate the desired trait faster....This can cost you though.....weaker running lines do come into play faster, so do unwanted traits. Basically these problems are related.

Any "F" series is "backed" once you use original mothers or fathers. Here is where stability comes from...

Non same mothers or fathers increase F series...With in the same strain. Not from any pairings used in this breeding project (no F1 or F2, etc from earlier in the line)

Using a male or female from an F pairing directly from this project and/or hitting the chosen pheno from that F series, is Inbreeding or IBLing......

 

[Thundercat]

I didn't make the chart. I found it on the internet. It apparently came from someone called shantibaba. He is apparently involved with Green House Seed Company, CBD Crew, and Mr Nice seeds. Just thought I'd throw that out there crediting the author. I don't want to be accused of plagiarism.

Shantibaba is an old school breeder, that actually does/did real line work breeding from my understanding. His hands were on classic strains from the 90s. https://www.semillas-de-marihuana.com/en/info/53-shantibaba-the-guru-of-modern-cannabis-genetics

Stabilization is not outbreeding lines 4&5 times (in fact, once you start going over those amounts (even the 5's show some) you begin to get less vigor and odd growth structure in the plants.

Your talking about backed or cubed lines. These have been back crossed with original fathers or mothers to stabilize the trait's you've isolated in the pheno hunts. You go out to F2's to shorten the hunt and highlight the good. Then back her to the desired in...

Inbreeding can isolate those things your looking for too. ResDog (sign of the cross) did some insane inbreeding with Sour Diesel. He had a SSSD that was off the hook.
Thing is with inbreeding. You hit that loss of vigor, faster.... Going over 5 is not good in any breeding program...

This is something I'm just wrapping up.
Super Silver Sour Diesel Haze X Skywalker OG X Chem #4 The chosen one, has been backed to the SSSDH male by clones of the male til this completed form.
View attachment 4311314

This is over 2 years of work to get here.....Look, I'm not saying I'm the best, or even real good at breeding. The biggest thing is what you pick to cross. I had some good teachers.....
This is my first full on breeding project since the cop infestation a few years back. Cpl of pollen chucks but, this project. I went full on into it.

She smells of Sandlewood, citrus, and OG
She smokes clean.
Buzz is longer lasting and has a nice visual/creative start before the Indica side comes in. Kinda GG like but, not as potent....
She is very frosty and as she bulks. The leaves are sort of absorbed by the big beefy, dense buds. She has exceptional node spacing, as you can see.

A fresh group of clones have been started for further testing.

This pic was posted yesterday in a "What is done look like" type of example. This one is days away.

This Christmas some people are getting her clones....
Beans to storage and maybe, maybe some S1's might be done.

I'm not sure why you quoted me in this post, I'm pretty sure I understand the process pretty well. I never said anything about outbreeding lines? I also do not believe anything I said is inaccurate. The chart XTsho posted really makes it an easy process to see and understand for these others. That chart shows working a line to 5 generations, and you could easily do the same to take it further. From my understanding the likely hood of the specific traits increases with each generation bred towards that trait. I believe then you can back cross with a father or mother plant to further isolate the specific traits and stabilize.

Just like xtsho pointed out, it takes multiple generations of actual selective breeding to isolate traits. I don't know where you get going past 5 generations is a bad thing, unless your talking about 5 gens of just backcrossing on itself? Lots of breeders breed 7 gen deep.

Since we are on the subject, I personally find it hard to call anyone a breeder that doesn't grow out 100+ plants before making a selection. Really it should be 1000+.

 

[pthobson]

Little off topic apologies, but does anyone remember that juicy fruit strain that actually smelled and tasted like the chewing gum juicy fruit? If so what’s the best breeder to get seeds from, haven’t seen it in like 7-8 years and would love to run a pack to see if I can find the chewing gum pheno apologies for off topic again

Have you tried maybe delicious seeds fruity chronic juice? I’ve never tried it myself though.

 

[Dr. Who]

Shantibaba is an old school breeder, that actually does/did real line work breeding from my understanding. His hands were on classic strains from the 90s. https://www.semillas-de-marihuana.com/en/info/53-shantibaba-the-guru-of-modern-cannabis-genetics



I'm not sure why you quoted me in this post, I'm pretty sure I understand the process pretty well. I never said anything about outbreeding lines? I also do not believe anything I said is inaccurate. The chart XTsho posted really makes it an easy process to see and understand for these others. That chart shows working a line to 5 generations, and you could easily do the same to take it further. From my understanding the likely hood of the specific traits increases with each generation bred towards that trait. I believe then you can back cross with a father or mother plant to further isolate the specific traits and stabilize.

Just like xtsho pointed out, it takes multiple generations of actual selective breeding to isolate traits. I don't know where you get going past 5 generations is a bad thing, unless your talking about 5 gens of just backcrossing on itself? Lots of breeders breed 7 gen deep.

Since we are on the subject, I personally find it hard to call anyone a breeder that doesn't grow out 100+ plants before making a selection. Really it should be 1000+.

SORRY

I used some poor explanation words in line one......Skip the word "outbreeding. In fact scrap that whole first line.

Reinsert this; To clarify, you don't "stabilize" a project by doing multiple F pairings. So you're not "stabilizing" a new strain by going out to F4 or 5, etc, etc ( how I understood your point on that). You are isolating trait expression's, This can include unwanted ones. If you aren't careful....

This is also part of the basis of the idea that going out beyond 5 pairings can bring to the surface some issues or unwanted traits also... It has been noticed that you do tend to loose some vigor past 5!
I see this expressed in some strains and it surprises me sometimes just from who these come from (I don't wonder if they pick something for how good the THC or something is but, ignore the less vigor thing). These will also become more so in long cloning......I have a few clones of clones of clones, that go back over 30 years. These are really healthy and strong growing plants today...Then I have some that struggle to go beyond 4-5 years....Clone issue could be related to other issues also but, ????

Many breeders today use a system of friends and colleagues to help pheno hunt.....So yeah on the hundreds of plants to select from thing... I do it in steps and have friends/partners who help....250 beans popped = minimal


A word on the old school boys...
Shanti, Arjan etc, etc. These guys had a pissing match to end all pissing match's. Everyone making claims and pointing fingers..... I'll say this. They did fine work, no matter who worked for whom. They made the initial base of the pyramid. There is at least one ass hat from back then. Who that is, is subjective.
BUT, it was the guys like Oregon Kid, Chem Dog, and yeah, I'll say it once (even though he's a low down rat fink) Resdog (his IBL work was famous) among many others...That created the start for the uber strains of today.


Gosh and damn it if I didn't come across far worse then I intended! Consider it as clarification and not saying you were wrong....No dis intended!

 

[Jimdamick]

Seedfinder had maybe 2500 strains less than 10 years ago and now lists 14,442 strains and 762 “Breeders”!

It's a fucking joke, ain't it?
40 years ago there where like 30 strains worldwide, and now there are thousands.
Damn, I wish I had some old F1's like REAL Acapulco Gold, Columbian Gold, Panama Red, AK47, stuff that you really can't find anymore (if you do, it sucks compared to the old stuff)
And they say herb today is the best it's ever been?
I call bullshit, the shit I was smoking in 1970 for $35 a zip still is some of the best weed I ever smoked.

 

[Cobnobuler]

This Christmas some people are getting her clones....
.

.....I've been good this year Doc....Really I have
She looks just gorgeous.Looks like you hit all the marks with her.
How ya been bro ? Hope all is well. I dont get around these parts so much these days.

 

[Thundercat]

SORRY

I used some poor explanation words in line one......Skip the word "outbreeding. In fact scrap that whole first line.

Reinsert this; To clarify, you don't "stabilize" a project by doing multiple F pairings. So you're not "stabilizing" a new strain by going out to F4 or 5, etc, etc ( how I understood your point on that). You are isolating trait expression's, This can include unwanted ones. If you aren't careful....

This is also part of the basis of the idea that going out beyond 5 pairings can bring to the surface some issues or unwanted traits also... It has been noticed that you do tend to loose some vigor past 5!
I see this expressed in some strains and it surprises me sometimes just from who these come from (I don't wonder if they pick something for how good the THC or something is but, ignore the less vigor thing). These will also become more so in long cloning......I have a few clones of clones of clones, that go back over 30 years. These are really healthy and strong growing plants today...Then I have some that struggle to go beyond 4-5 years....Clone issue could be related to other issues also but, ????

Many breeders today use a system of friends and colleagues to help pheno hunt.....So yeah on the hundreds of plants to select from thing... I do it in steps and have friends/partners who help....250 beans popped = minimal


A word on the old school boys...
Shanti, Arjan etc, etc. These guys had a pissing match to end all pissing match's. Everyone making claims and pointing fingers..... I'll say this. They did fine work, no matter who worked for whom. They made the initial base of the pyramid. There is at least one ass hat from back then. Who that is, is subjective.
BUT, it was the guys like Oregon Kid, Chem Dog, and yeah, I'll say it once (even though he's a low down rat fink) Resdog (his IBL work was famous) among many others...That created the start for the uber strains of today.


Gosh and damn it if I didn't come across far worse then I intended! Consider it as clarification and not saying you were wrong....No dis intended!

I feel yeah man, I definitely used the term stablized loosely. I meant it in regards to getting more isolate trait expression. Your totally right if not done right some times thats can be bad traits.

All the old timers drama is deep for sure. I prefer to look at the big picture and just appreciate the awesome work that come from some of it lol. In the end I don't care who fucked who over 25 years ago lmao.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought we were on the same page so that post kinda confused me when I read it.

 

[olafthegreen]

Little off topic apologies, but does anyone remember that juicy fruit strain that actually smelled and tasted like the chewing gum juicy fruit? If so what’s the best breeder to get seeds from, haven’t seen it in like 7-8 years and would love to run a pack to see if I can find the chewing gum pheno apologies for off topic again

Little late, but I believe you want sensi seeds - fruity juice. I think the name was changed for obvious reasons.

I'm just looking at getting it myself, seems you can just get regular seeds, and they aren't super cheap. I'm thinking cloning.