HLG vs HGL Side By Side
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MoodyShoes
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to bother reading all that, but I'm sure there are plenty of studies that counter the conclusion, whatever that is.
As an avid gardener I can tell you with absolute certainty that cutting a plant back aggressively will always, without fail, result in that plant growing back fuller, and stronger.
The key thing with defol is time. It will, in my experience, increase the veg time by about 25% (again this is my opinion only) but the results are worth the longer veg time.
Also, a defol early in veg often leads to the plant putting more effort into its roots, something you can see very clearly in hydro.
Whatever gets the results, but I've tried both and will certainly stick with heavy defol in veg and very early flower.
Well yeah In your case where you are not trying to maximize yield you don't pull leaves off. Defoliation is to maximize yield if you doubled the amount of plants or trained more to double the size of the plants you would have to defoliate but you would yield more. Defoliation just makes space for more buds
Kushash
Well-Known Member
I don't care if anyone reads it however a few might and those that do will likely find something of interest about defoliating that they never thought of if it is a topic of interest.
Doesn't matter to me, I choose not to do it and study my leaves.
You grow buds, I grow leaves and let the buds take care of themselves. Like you said, to each their own.
There's a gram per watt comp coming up, sounds like a game you could win.
I barely get .85g per watt with my HPS, I'd have no shot lol.
MoodyShoes
Well-Known Member
I'm only at about 1.1gpw, so nothing special. There are a lot more competent growers out there I'm sure!
10WeekFlushBro
Well-Known Member
RE: leaf size - Just because a leaf is bigger does not necessarily mean there is more photosynthesis taking place. Similarly, plants that are bigger in size due to differences in light quality do not necessarily have increased dry weight. I can't be bothered to find sources, but reading a handful of light quality experiments should verify those statements for anyone.
MoodyShoes
Well-Known Member
I find the bigger the leaf, the more annoying it is in terms of shading potential sites.
I'm not against fans, but th idea that 'bigger the better' seems a bit old school.
Big Perm
Well-Known Member
For what it's worth, I was a decent outdoor grower once upon a time. Outdoors, I had more big fan leaves, and the sun did it's job.
Most of my indoor plants have smaller leaves than my outdoor plants ever did. May be a coincidence, don't know.
I do know that although my plants have smaller leaves indoors, there are more of them, so it is kind of a wash.
I have grown both defoliating, and not.
I have chosen to defoliate as my method of grow now, in a scrog. But that is simply because I have worked over time to where I am now, each grow a little better than the last.
Ironically, I have never weighed a harvest, so I couldn't even ballpark a GPW. I can visibly see bigger yields each time, though. I am going tot start weighing my grows now.
In a future side by side I plan on doing one where a plant is defoliated, and one is not. Or, two different grow methods, just to see the differences in yield.
I have had huge fan leaves indoors. Cream Cheese CBD rings a bell. Biggest indoors I have seen myself. Which also leads me to believe it may be strain related.
I did defoliate that CCCBD, and the leaves came in smaller.
Most of my indoor plants have smaller leaves than my outdoor plants ever did. May be a coincidence, don't know.
I do know that although my plants have smaller leaves indoors, there are more of them, so it is kind of a wash.
I have grown both defoliating, and not.
I have chosen to defoliate as my method of grow now, in a scrog. But that is simply because I have worked over time to where I am now, each grow a little better than the last.
Ironically, I have never weighed a harvest, so I couldn't even ballpark a GPW. I can visibly see bigger yields each time, though. I am going tot start weighing my grows now.
In a future side by side I plan on doing one where a plant is defoliated, and one is not. Or, two different grow methods, just to see the differences in yield.
I have had huge fan leaves indoors. Cream Cheese CBD rings a bell. Biggest indoors I have seen myself. Which also leads me to believe it may be strain related.
I did defoliate that CCCBD, and the leaves came in smaller.
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MoodyShoes
Well-Known Member
It's so difficult to quantify the advantages or disadvantages of defol because there are so many factors.
You can read one grow journal that does a side by side and they say its advantageous, then read another that says it isn't.
Whatever you do, it'll be contested by some, and promoted by others.
This is the unfortunate situation we find ourselves in on forums. Some people tell the truth, others don't, so it's almost impossible to get facts.
The blessing and curse of the Internet.
Anonimity.
Big Perm
Well-Known Member
hit me up in an email.
lukio
Well-Known Member
They were stuck in their ways for sure...theyve been around a long time i guess. Times are changin tho! Diyleduk has been given the opportunity to show em the light, which is good.
Ive done enough slagging off in general recently though - so im gonna leave it there!
Big fan of savage defoliation. i do it twice, once before flip and another time on around day 28. i will also continue to pull any big fans.
I like the improved air circ and penetration to bud sites. i get the the feeling they love a beasting...
NanoGadget
Well-Known Member
I think i could agree with you if we perhaps made the distinction that pruning can increase yeild of a given space, but not necessarily increase the yeild per plant. On a per plant basis, all my tests have shown me slightly lower yeild (per plant) from aggressive pruning, but i could see easlily increased yeild/sq ft by jamming more plants in. Either way, i don't fight people on how they grow anymore because they aren't my plants and if they want my opinion I'm sure they'll ask. Lol.
Kushash
Well-Known Member
Defoliation IMO is an advanced technique and I can see many grows that do well when it is done especially in a SCROG.
What I think is a mistake is when a new or novice growers remove leaves before they dialed in their grow and before they have learned to read the plant.
I grow organic with top dressings and grow long flowering strains. For me I like my fans to read the plant because everything is pro active in soil when top dressing.
What I think is a mistake is when a new or novice growers remove leaves before they dialed in their grow and before they have learned to read the plant.
I grow organic with top dressings and grow long flowering strains. For me I like my fans to read the plant because everything is pro active in soil when top dressing.
MoodyShoes
Well-Known Member
MoodyShoes
Well-Known Member
Not sure how mate. Let me know.
MoodyShoes
Well-Known Member
Lol.
OneHitDone
Well-Known Member
If you are able to keep your lower fans healthy green to the end as you seem to have been working towards - how about removing only the upper canopy fans?
Flower sites unshaded and solar panels retained = win win
Big Perm
Well-Known Member
NanoGadget
Well-Known Member
My current space consistently pulls over a 1 gpw with almost no effort. QBs over organic soil. Thats it. I can't even really take any credit cause i barely do anything. I don't need to fix a problem I don't have. But you all are out there killing it with your styles too! Thats why I don't put any effort into trying to change peoples minds who are doing just fine without my input.
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
You can also leaf tuck if bud site "shading" is a concern........whatever, this debate useless and going on since indoor began====do what you want to YOUR plants. No one gives a shit, enjoy
Regarding artificial spectrum(s) for cannabis, it's a balance=== [quantity, quality, duration] as we always say in here. But it seems to lean towards quantity(output/efficacy) from the decades of growing on RIU........or most of the old tech-heads will tell you the same.
fluoro (t5) growers who experimented with exotic aquarium bulbs (following the teachings of prof.) to tweak spds, they all ended up going back to raw output AKA "white" bulbs.
Cfl growers improved yields going to hid = more output
1000w SE hps growers improved yields going to DE=== more output
1000w DE hps/hor reflector grower going to blux eb gen 3 strips? More output, but the rest remains to be seen..... I think it will be a good one : )
Hid growers going to the induction bulb hype and then going back to hid due to loss of yield= less output from seriously ancient Nikolai tesla tech, shocker. Even stubborn indagro eventually abandoned it for LEDs.
400w hps growers praising 315w CMH bulb's spectrum actually went from 1.5 ppf/w(hps) to 1.96 ppf/w(Philips 3200k cmh) =more output. 600w hps growers losing yields switching to inefficient Horti 600w Chps bulb or cheap knock off 630w cmh bulbs with better spd but lower output than standard sodium. The Hortilux Fanclub will attack me, OHD included, don't care ..... I know what I was pmd by growers who actually used that halfassed ceramic tech.
Early led adopters & blurple, almost all upgraded/evolved to white phosphor when cobs entered the scene and repeatedly said they increased yields = more output per watt. how was a 56w 100% mono Hans panel beating out crappy china mono pro grows, black stars, vipars, penetrators, etc running double the watts in 2011?.....oh yeah Osram golden dragons, Philips rebel, cree xpe had significantly more output than the generic encapsulated mono shit diodes in those hot boxes, the cheap thermal management didn't help the case either....
see a fucking pattern?
Yes, exceptions to the rule as always....." What about low-pressure sodium bulbs or pure green mono or pure blue mono smartass?" never seen anyone try a complete cycle, again some balance comes into play. I'm still a believer of a red-leaning spd for flowering annuals; no doubt.
most of my hid "career" I ran hps from start to finish, cause flower paid my bills in the end. The mh swap hassle wasn't worth it ime. Didn't care about the slightly lanky/stretchy veg cause it mostly worked out due to lots of photons being thrown at the canopy=== OUTPUT.....ok, I'll stop now
FYI I'm no expert by any means, just observations
Edit........OHD for the win, winless internet effort to be exact
Regarding artificial spectrum(s) for cannabis, it's a balance=== [quantity, quality, duration] as we always say in here. But it seems to lean towards quantity(output/efficacy) from the decades of growing on RIU........or most of the old tech-heads will tell you the same.
fluoro (t5) growers who experimented with exotic aquarium bulbs (following the teachings of prof.) to tweak spds, they all ended up going back to raw output AKA "white" bulbs.
Cfl growers improved yields going to hid = more output
1000w SE hps growers improved yields going to DE=== more output
1000w DE hps/hor reflector grower going to blux eb gen 3 strips? More output, but the rest remains to be seen..... I think it will be a good one : )
Hid growers going to the induction bulb hype and then going back to hid due to loss of yield= less output from seriously ancient Nikolai tesla tech, shocker. Even stubborn indagro eventually abandoned it for LEDs.
400w hps growers praising 315w CMH bulb's spectrum actually went from 1.5 ppf/w(hps) to 1.96 ppf/w(Philips 3200k cmh) =more output. 600w hps growers losing yields switching to inefficient Horti 600w Chps bulb or cheap knock off 630w cmh bulbs with better spd but lower output than standard sodium. The Hortilux Fanclub will attack me, OHD included, don't care ..... I know what I was pmd by growers who actually used that halfassed ceramic tech.
Early led adopters & blurple, almost all upgraded/evolved to white phosphor when cobs entered the scene and repeatedly said they increased yields = more output per watt. how was a 56w 100% mono Hans panel beating out crappy china mono pro grows, black stars, vipars, penetrators, etc running double the watts in 2011?.....oh yeah Osram golden dragons, Philips rebel, cree xpe had significantly more output than the generic encapsulated mono shit diodes in those hot boxes, the cheap thermal management didn't help the case either....
see a fucking pattern?
Yes, exceptions to the rule as always....." What about low-pressure sodium bulbs or pure green mono or pure blue mono smartass?" never seen anyone try a complete cycle, again some balance comes into play. I'm still a believer of a red-leaning spd for flowering annuals; no doubt.
most of my hid "career" I ran hps from start to finish, cause flower paid my bills in the end. The mh swap hassle wasn't worth it ime. Didn't care about the slightly lanky/stretchy veg cause it mostly worked out due to lots of photons being thrown at the canopy=== OUTPUT.....ok, I'll stop now
FYI I'm no expert by any means, just observations
Edit........OHD for the win, winless internet effort to be exact
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