Canadian Western Separation

[MrToad69]

“You say the air is polluted by fossil fuels yet still you breathe it! Hypocrite “

Buck

You're not a very fair man are you?

As I said, we are all guilty...even you on your high horse...You're burning fossil fuel like everyone else! This conversation is deteriorating with your inability to take a step back and acknowledge simple truths...and be fair

How do you and your family get around (what type of vehicle)? How do you heat your home?

Toad

 

[Rob Roy]

Alternatives do not exist yet because of lobbying by the fossil fuel industry who get subsidies and tax breaks that are bought and paid for in the States by bribes. We have not even tried to gain energy independence from fossil fuels yet, as a planet we've barely scratched the surface of it and never would if the energy lobby had its way.

We have no choice about eating either, but healthier choices are available and the government doesn't subsidize fast unhealthy food (there is a scientific way to measure this) restaurants, but should tax them higher through sales tax surcharges. Likewise with oil, there should be a surtax to help with conversion to greener technologies, call it a carbon tax if ya want. Tar sands oil will be left in the ground just like coal is now and Canada has recently discovered vast untapped sources of high quality coal in northern Ontario. You can't put tens of millions of years of biologically sequestered carbon back into the atmosphere in a century or two and expect no ramifications, that's denial of reality.

Global warming is an issue today and will be much more of one into the future, maybe Aberta should pledge to take in 10 or 20 million people from Bangladesh, or the millions more from numerous island nations and coastal areas around the world who will be flooded. Perhaps a refugee tax in the form of immigration would be more acceptable than a carbon tax for Alberta? Or perhaps as long as they can they can drive a half ton truck that they need a step ladder to get up into, fuck the planet and the brown folks can just go drown in the rising ocean. $150K a year tends to blind most people to reality and their priorities are skewed towards their wallet and against the welfare of others, including their own kids and grandkids. Money and profit warp our judgement, it takes character to resist the strong pull of greed when it's conflated with basic need. Global warming is reality, denying it or the roll of tar sands oil in it, is denying reality and that is something those who support Donald Trump do, he thinks global warming is a hoax and so do his fans.

You can have a civil discussion as long as you don't deny reality, that is an insult to those who you are having a discussion with, facts must be agreed upon for honest civil discussion to proceed. Global climate change is a fact and a threat to those who have children and grandchildren, or care about the future of humanity. The economic well being of Alberta is of no consequence by comparison, neither was the economic well being of Cape Breton Island where I live and at the turn of the twentieth century it was the king of coal and we've still got lot's here too, buried in the ground. After the second world war it was an economic imperative to convert to oil and then became an environmental one later, this time the order will be reversed because of the need and the overwhelming evidence of man made climate change.

What kind of bicycle do you ride and do you raise your own food ?

 

[MrToad69]

Alternatives do not exist yet because of lobbying by the fossil fuel industry who get subsidies and tax breaks that are bought and paid for in the States by bribes. We have not even tried to gain energy independence from fossil fuels yet, as a planet we've barely scratched the surface of it and never would if the energy lobby had its way.

We have no choice about eating either, but healthier choices are available and the government doesn't subsidize fast unhealthy food (there is a scientific way to measure this) restaurants, but should tax them higher through sales tax surcharges. Likewise with oil, there should be a surtax to help with conversion to greener technologies, call it a carbon tax if ya want. Tar sands oil will be left in the ground just like coal is now and Canada has recently discovered vast untapped sources of high quality coal in northern Ontario. You can't put tens of millions of years of biologically sequestered carbon back into the atmosphere in a century or two and expect no ramifications, that's denial of reality.

Global warming is an issue today and will be much more of one into the future, maybe Aberta should pledge to take in 10 or 20 million people from Bangladesh, or the millions more from numerous island nations and coastal areas around the world who will be flooded. Perhaps a refugee tax in the form of immigration would be more acceptable than a carbon tax for Alberta? Or perhaps as long as they can they can drive a half ton truck that they need a step ladder to get up into, fuck the planet and the brown folks can just go drown in the rising ocean. $150K a year tends to blind most people to reality and their priorities are skewed towards their wallet and against the welfare of others, including their own kids and grandkids. Money and profit warp our judgement, it takes character to resist the strong pull of greed when it's conflated with basic need. Global warming is reality, denying it or the roll of tar sands oil in it, is denying reality and that is something those who support Donald Trump do, he thinks global warming is a hoax and so do his fans.

You can have a civil discussion as long as you don't deny reality, that is an insult to those who you are having a discussion with, facts must be agreed upon for honest civil discussion to proceed. Global climate change is a fact and a threat to those who have children and grandchildren, or care about the future of humanity. The economic well being of Alberta is of no consequence by comparison, neither was the economic well being of Cape Breton Island where I live and at the turn of the twentieth century it was the king of coal and we've still got lot's here too, buried in the ground. After the second world war it was an economic imperative to convert to oil and then became an environmental one later, this time the order will be reversed because of the need and the overwhelming evidence of man made climate change.

DIY

With all due repect...

2 things..were talking oil sands Alberta right? What subsidies are you talking about in Alberta?

Second,
We have 37 million people in Canada while China has 1.4 BILLION...What happens when the Chinese dont have enough energy to meet their needs? Natural gas in particular....Answer..they'll regress down the environmental ladder to the next available option..They'll burn Coal..

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Buck

You're not a very fair man are you?

As I said, we are all guilty...even you on your high horse...You're burning fossil fuel like everyone else! This conversation is deteriorating with your inability to take a step back and acknowledge simple truths...and be fair

How do you and your family get around (what type of vehicle)? How do you heat your home?

Toad

Toad don't be such a snowflake, he was pointing out something you are blind to, the lack and expense of alternatives are the result of decades of oil industry lobbying, bribes and disinformation. You know, like global warming is a "tax grab conspiracy" and other lies that damage or destroy the future for billions. I've heard this bullshit coming out of Alberta for a couple of decades now and ya wanna snowflake out when someone calls you out on it.

People get passionate about their children's long term future too, not just about their pay check. It's hard for you to be objective since your paycheck is so closely tied to the oil industry, others here have no such impediment to perceiving reality. Buck was being fair to you, I believe you were not, and how we got to the point where there are so few alternatives to fossil fuels because of corruption and disinformation needs to be taken into account. You are a victim of this long term disinformation campaign that includes "relabeling" tar sands oil (the original), to oil sands oil the Alberta politically correct term.

 

[hanimmal]

Buck..
Do tou have tour fac

Hanimmal.
.
I think you accidentally sent the wrong news clip...Wasn't this the one you meant to send?

This story is no longer available - Washington Times

The Washington Times delivers breaking news and commentary on the issues that affect the future of our nation.

www.washingtontimes.com

Here's the rather modest 7,100 sq foot house Jane and here ex just sold....A modest environmental footprint for 2 people wouldn't you think?

Jane Fonda Beverly Hills Home Sells for $8.5 Million

Actress and activist Jane Fonda gives a tour the modernist Los Angeles house she is selling for $13 million and shares her favorite spaces

people.com

Point is two things: These people are the environmental advocates....yet both seem to advocate more for "do as I say...not as I do"....

Second, which is my point earlier....when you've got millions of dollars, it's easy to hire architects and engineers to make it more efficient..Most cant afford that.

Toad

Was that the point of that house to be a tiny home or a big one? The dude lives a carbon neutral life, give him props for at least trying to sound the warning bell of our environmental meltdown due to how dirty we are as a civilization.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

DIY

With all due repect...

2 things..were talking oil sands Alberta right? What subsidies are you talking about in Alberta?

Second,
We have 37 million people in Canada while China has 1.4 BILLION...What happens when the Chinese dont have enough energy to meet their needs? Natural gas in particular....Answer..they'll regress down the environmental ladder to the next available option..They'll burn Coal..

Well toad I was speaking of America when talking about subsidies, but the federal government's takeover of the pipeline project was not free was it? All those workers from the east coast were educated elsewhere so that could be considered a subsidy as well.

China is looking at major flooding with sea level rises that will drive several hundred million people from the new industrial coastal cities and is getting serious about climate change for a good reason, survival. They have taken the lead in solar and wind energy for a reason and many new cars are electric. Electric cars work well in most of the world and in cities in particular china has big incentives for electric cars too. But it's not what the world is now, but what it could be like 10 or 20 years from now, that's what this discussion is really all about, not what some celebrities are doing now, but what the rest of us will be doing 10 or 20 years down the road.

 

[hanimmal]

Hanimmal.
.
I think you accidentally sent the wrong news clip...Wasn't this the one you meant to send?

This story is no longer available - Washington Times

The Washington Times delivers breaking news and commentary on the issues that affect the future of our nation.

www.washingtontimes.com

Here's the rather modest 7,100 sq foot house Jane and here ex just sold....A modest environmental footprint for 2 people wouldn't you think?

Jane Fonda Beverly Hills Home Sells for $8.5 Million

Actress and activist Jane Fonda gives a tour the modernist Los Angeles house she is selling for $13 million and shares her favorite spaces

people.com

Point is two things: These people are the environmental advocates....yet both seem to advocate more for "do as I say...not as I do"....

Second, which is my point earlier....when you've got millions of dollars, it's easy to hire architects and engineers to make it more efficient..Most cant afford that.

Toad

No I was trying to send the original troll propaganda that what your on about is coming from. If everyone lived a carbon neutral lifestyle it would be a great start, so I am all for people doing what Gore does with that. And sure money makes life far easier.

I think we were always among the top oil producers in the world. I hadn't been paying as close attention to the thread sorry, I just saw the obvious troll on Gore and leapt before I looked. I think I am off topic and not sure how you got to Gore in the first place.

 

[MrToad69]

Toad don't be such a snowflake, he was pointing out something you are blind to, the lack and expense of alternatives are the result of decades of oil industry lobbying, bribes and disinformation. You know, like global warming is a "tax grab conspiracy" and other lies that damage or destroy the future for billions. I've heard this bullshit coming out of Alberta for a couple of decades now and ya wanna snowflake out when someone calls you out on it.

People get passionate about their children's long term future too, not just about their pay check. It's hard for you to be objective since your paycheck is so closely tied to the oil industry, others here have no such impediment to perceiving reality. Buck was being fair to you, I believe you were not, and how we got to the point where there are so few alternatives to fossil fuels because of corruption and disinformation needs to be taken into account. You are a victim of this long term disinformation campaign that includes "relabeling" tar sands oil (the original), to oil sands oil the Alberta politically correct term.

DIY

You couldn't be more wrong...
First, I'm a stay at home dad with 2 children..one 5 and one who is 7. One cant be passionate for the kids and point fingers, when there part of the problem too. How about the 100,000+ people unemployed HERE IN ALBERTA as a result of the downturn..Where's the money to retrain people for new industries to feed their families? I know a ton of people who have been unemployed for over 3 years and have had to rely on savings.

Then you mention conspiracy...What conspiracy? Tax grab... It's an actual fact...If separatists get their way...thats $5400 per person saved that doesnt go to Ottawa...and bumped over to Quebec...

Everyone is burning the fuel!!...That's my point...I don't burn any more than you or Buck and yet you point at Alberta like they're bad simply for supplying to meet the demand of Canadians...If you didn't buy it ...Alberta wouldnt have a market..Kinda like fro-is gras...someone eats duck liver pate...then point fingers at the person raises the ducks for that person...I dont get it...

Im astonished at the logic..DIY, you seem like a smart reasonable person and no question the oil patch has its skunks too...but blaming others for what you're participating in yourself is not fair...

 

[MrToad69]

Well toad I was speaking of America when talking about subsidies, but the federal government's takeover of the pipeline project was not free was it? All those workers from the east coast were educated elsewhere so that could be considered a subsidy as well.

China is looking at major flooding with sea level rises that will drive several hundred million people from the new industrial coastal cities and is getting serious about climate change for a good reason, survival. They have taken the lead in solar and wind energy for a reason and many new cars are electric. Electric cars work well in most of the world and in cities in particular china has big incentives for electric cars too. But it's not what the world is now, but what it could be like 10 or 20 years from now, that's what this discussion is really all about, not what some celebrities are doing now, but what the rest of us will be doing 10 or 20 years down the road.

DIY

Seriously? The Pipeline was not free!!...Im absolutely astonished...That investment was a Golden Goose for Canada spitting out money in transport fees..Have you seen the value of pipeline companies and their revenues? I don't think people understand...Im baffled...You make it sound like this is some intended gift for Albertans...Why do you think the collective indigenous group is trying to buy the pipeline from the federal government?? It's a cash cow

Energy is about options around the world..gas, gasoline coal...You cant clump Alberta together with everyone...How it's produced? Taxed? Who benefits from it sales? The US energy market has been thriving these past 5 years because it is not bottle-necked and can get to where demand is...It a business...forgive me, but parallel the US and Canadian energy market to two boxers..one with his tied...Alberta cant get its energy to market plain and simple.

You also assume that Albertan don't want to be part of the environmental discussion...thats absolutely false! I commend all people and companies making the transition, but adopting those technologies takes time..Nat gas and gasoline are still going to be used in the mean time...for Canadians to shut things down locally doesnt solve the problem...Those resources will be purchased elsewhere...Much like BC..They want to shut down the pipeline development..so Alberta says fine we turn off the tap for refined fuel..BC takes Alberta to court and says no...You cant have it both ways, transition takes time...You shut things off "cold turkey" anywhere and there are implications..Think people were happy with $1.70 gas in BC? Absolutely not! Build the teslas...It will help us all...but it will take time unfortunately till everyone has one.

Toad

 

[Rider101]

Smoking a joint laughing my ass off.

The green party wants to end all oil and gas production!

 

[Herb & Suds]

Smoking a joint laughing my ass off.

The green party wants to end all oil and gas production!

So do millennials
GET OVER IT

 

[Rider101]

DIY

You couldn't be more wrong...
First, I'm a stay at home dad with 2 children..one 5 and one who is 7. One cant be passionate for the kids and point fingers, when there part of the problem too. How about the 100,000+ people unemployed HERE IN ALBERTA as a result of the downturn..Where's the money to retrain people for new industries to feed their families? I know a ton of people who have been unemployed for over 3 years and have had to rely on savings.

Then you mention conspiracy...What conspiracy? Tax grab... It's an actual fact...If separatists get their way...thats $5400 per person saved that doesnt go to Ottawa...and bumped over to Quebec...

Everyone is burning the fuel!!...That's my point...I don't burn any more than you or Buck and yet you point at Alberta like they're bad simply for supplying to meet the demand of Canadians...If you didn't buy it ...Alberta wouldnt have a market..Kinda like fro-is gras...someone eats duck liver pate...then point fingers at the person raises the ducks for that person...I dont get it...

Im astonished at the logic..DIY, you seem like a smart reasonable person and no question the oil patch has its skunks too...but blaming others for what you're participating in yourself is not fair...

Wow there are a lot of people in Alberta who are morons!!!

Oil went from $150 per barrel is now $50 a barrel! Its call a boom to bust cycle and its caused by commodity prices.

In Canada in fact in Alberta this has had little effect on unemployment numbers

PUBLISHED - Oct 11, 2019
In September 2019, Alberta's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate was 6.6%, a decrease of 0.4% from September 2018. The national unemployment rate was 5.5% in September 2019, down 0.3% from the same period in 2018.

Now lets look at a nation that is totally dependent on oil!

Venezuela's estimated unemployment rate stands at a staggering 44%May 23, 2019.

How stupid are Albertan? Or is it just greed blinding the morons from the truth that their days in the sun are over boom came all over them, then bust fucked them right up the ass.

FYI for the morons who think there were more jobs before the Liberals came into power.

In 2009 the national unemployment number was 8.3 percent. 8.1 in 2010 7.3 in 2011 and 2012 Far higher then it is now!

Unemployment rate in Canada 2023 | Statista

In 2023, 5.4 percent of the labor force in Canada was unemployed.

www.statista.com

Source: Statistics Canada, Labour Force Survey, Table 14-10-0056-01, unadjusted data. In January 2019, an average of 70,200 people were unemployed for 27 weeks or longer, or long-term unemployed. This was up from 64,100 a year earlier.

Yet Toad claims there are over 100000 people unemployed in Alberta alone eh another fucking moron listening to the cons rather then looking at the facts!!!


Smoking a joint laughing my ass off at Conservative morons. What a fucking joke!!!

 

[Rider101]

So do millennials
GET OVER IT

Get over what its happening bitch oil is a really bad investment. Want proof even the Saudis are getting the fuck out of the industry. After saying they would never allow any foreign ownership of their oil.

Saudi oil giant Aramco gets go-ahead for $1.5tn stock listing

Saudi oil giant Aramco gets go-ahead for $1.5tn stock listing

World’s biggest ever IPO poised to take place next month after regulators give approval

www.theguardian.com

 

[MrToad69]

Wow there are a lot of people in Alberta who are morons!!!

Oil went from $150 per barrel is now $50 a barrel! Its call a boom to bust cycle and its caused by commodity prices.

In Canada in fact in Alberta this has had little effect on unemployment numbers

PUBLISHED - Oct 11, 2019
In September 2019, Alberta's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate was 6.6%, a decrease of 0.4% from September 2018. The national unemployment rate was 5.5% in September 2019, down 0.3% from the same period in 2018.

Now lets look at a nation that is totally dependent on oil!

Venezuela's estimated unemployment rate stands at a staggering 44%May 23, 2019

Rider

If want to participate...please at least understand what you're talking about.Venezuela's economy has experienced that drop because of sanctions...

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

First, I'm a stay at home dad with 2 children..one 5 and one who is 7. One cant be passionate for the kids and point fingers, when there part of the problem too. How about the 100,000+ people unemployed HERE IN ALBERTA as a result of the downturn..Where's the money to retrain people for new industries to feed their families? I know a ton of people who have been unemployed for over 3 years and have had to rely on savings.

I live in Nova Scotia and we've had our economic down turn too, long ago and many from here are in Alberta now. The downturn in Alberta is not the federal government's fault, but the result of environmental and political concerns by others and those concerns will only deepen.

Then you mention conspiracy...What conspiracy? Tax grab... It's an actual fact...If separatists get their way...thats $5400 per person saved that doesnt go to Ottawa...and bumped over to Quebec...

Toad I've been dealing with climate change deniers for a couple of decades now and their favorite line (promoted and financed by the oil industry) that it's a tax grab by governments is a fact, others can post a ton of links for this, I won't bother.

Do you believe in man made climate change, or global warming? Future sea level rises? I think you need to address these two questions before we can move on to policy issues, these are really moral and ethical issues and need to be addressed first. Also this is the second time you've addressed the people of Quebec as the "other" and I'm suspecting a bit of bigotry on your part, all the maritime provinces benefit from transfer payments too, yet you are focused on Quebec getting a "free ride".

Everyone is burning the fuel!!...That's my point...I don't burn any more than you or Buck and yet you point at Alberta like they're bad simply for supplying to meet the demand of Canadians...If you didn't buy it ...Alberta wouldnt have a market..Kinda like fro-is gras...someone eats duck liver pate...then point fingers at the person raises the ducks for that person...I dont get it...

Like I said, everybody uses fossil fuels because they have no choice, in part that choice was removed starting a couple of decades ago by disinformation, corruption and lobbying, it what we do moving forward that counts. We are talking about global problems and they impact Alberta's problems and will do so much more into the future. Donald Trump is a climate change denier because Putin told him to be, Russia is in your corner on this issue as well, so expect a lot of support from that quarter. The manufactured "climategate scandal" a couple of decades back was a result of Russian hacking and disinformation in conjunction with the oil industry, it set the cause of climate change and alternative energy sources back a decade at least.

Im astonished at the logic..DIY, you seem like a smart reasonable person and no question the oil patch has its skunks too...but blaming others for what you're participating in yourself is not fair...

I hope I've explained my logic to you, now start explaining your logic to me and start by answering a couple of basic questions honestly. Do you believe in man made climate change? Do you believe it will lead to sea level rise? I am a reasonable person who sees a bigger picture than you do and who has larger concerns than yours, which center around economic conditions in Alberta almost exclusively. Another name for tar sands is bitumen, as in bitumen coal and we've got lot's of that where I live too.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Venezuela's economy has experienced that drop because of sanctions...

Imagine what will happen to oil prices when they come online, not to mention the vast reserves in Iran. Political change in the USA will mean more than a ban on tar sands oil moving south, the price is gonna drop like a rock with all Russian oil embargo as well.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

DIY

Seriously? The Pipeline was not free!!...Im absolutely astonished...That investment was a Golden Goose for Canada spitting out money in transport fees..Have you seen the value of pipeline companies and their revenues? I don't think people understand...Im baffled...You make it sound like this is some intended gift for Albertans...Why do you think the collective indigenous group is trying to buy the pipeline from the federal government?? It's a cash cow

Energy is about options around the world..gas, gasoline coal...You cant clump Alberta together with everyone...How it's produced? Taxed? Who benefits from it sales? The US energy market has been thriving these past 5 years because it is not bottle-necked and can get to where demand is...It a business...forgive me, but parallel the US and Canadian energy market to two boxers..one with his tied...Alberta cant get its energy to market plain and simple.

You also assume that Albertan don't want to be part of the environmental discussion...thats absolutely false! I commend all people and companies making the transition, but adopting those technologies takes time..Nat gas and gasoline are still going to be used in the mean time...for Canadians to shut things down locally doesnt solve the problem...Those resources will be purchased elsewhere...Much like BC..They want to shut down the pipeline development..so Alberta says fine we turn off the tap for refined fuel..BC takes Alberta to court and says no...You cant have it both ways, transition takes time...You shut things off "cold turkey" anywhere and there are implications..Think people were happy with $1.70 gas in BC? Absolutely not! Build the teslas...It will help us all...but it will take time unfortunately till everyone has one.

Toad

I'm not talking so much about my "desires", but about the reality that Alberta faces and why. The transition to new technologies does take time and a couple of decades of that transition time have been stolen by the oil industry and their political corruption. Norway has a multi trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund run by a philosopher. Alberta, along with Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana doesn't have a pot to piss in because the industry owns the corrupt governments period. The people of these places got and are getting fucked, lower taxes and bigotry were the weapons of choice for those mass screwings. Like those conservative ranchers in Alberta who were able to get the mineral rights thrown in for free along with the grazing rights for a pitance.

 

[Rider101]

I live in Nova Scotia and we've had our economic down turn too, long ago and many from here are in Alberta now. The downturn in Alberta is not the federal government's fault, but the result of environmental and political concerns by others and those concerns will only deepen.

Toad I've been dealing with climate change deniers for a couple of decades now and their favorite line (promoted and financed by the oil industry) that it's a tax grab by governments is a fact, others can post a ton of links for this, I won't bother.

Do you believe in man made climate change, or global warming? Future sea level rises? I think you need to address these two questions before we can move on to policy issues, these are really moral and ethical issues and need to be addressed first. Also this is the second time you've addressed the people of Quebec as the "other" and I'm suspecting a bit of bigotry on your part, all the maritime provinces benefit from transfer payments too, yet you are focused on Quebec getting a "free ride".

Like I said, everybody uses fossil fuels because they have no choice, in part that choice was removed starting a couple of decades ago by disinformation, corruption and lobbying, it what we do moving forward that counts. We are talking about global problems and they impact Alberta's problems and will do so much more into the future. Donald Trump is a climate change denier because Putin told him to be, Russia is in your corner on this issue as well, so expect a lot of support from that quarter. The manufactured "climategate scandal" a couple of decades back was a result of Russian hacking and disinformation in conjunction with the oil industry, it set the cause of climate change and alternative energy sources back a decade at least.

I hope I've explained my logic to you, now start explaining your logic to me and start by answering a couple of basic questions honestly. Do you believe in man made climate change? Do you believe it will lead to sea level rise? I am a reasonable person who sees a bigger picture than you do and who has larger concerns than yours, which center around economic conditions in Alberta almost exclusively. Another name for tar sands is bitumen, as in bitumen coal and we've got lot's of that where I live too.

Your arguing with a greedy sobs who only care about cash in their pockets. These people would happily kill their own for a buck! You know them by their political names like Nazi, Conservative and Republican.

But the fun part is watching them whine and get more and more angry while hating everything including themselves. Karma or instant justice take your pick.

 

[Rider101]

I have to admit I do enjoy watching Republicans defend Trump actions that are illegal or Albertan blaming the Liberal government for oil job after loses after oil went from 150 a barrel to 50 a barrel.

You can't win an argument with morons its a waste of time. But you can smoke a joint and laugh at the stupid fucking morons like those who use cannabis but support either Conservatives or Republican just too stupid to understand the cause and effect reality we all exist in.

 

[MrToad69]

I live in Nova Scotia and we've had our economic down turn too, long ago and many from here are in Alberta now. The downturn in Alberta is not the federal government's fault, but the result of environmental and political concerns by others and those concerns will only deepen.

Toad I've been dealing with climate change deniers for a couple of decades now and their favorite line (promoted and financed by the oil industry) that it's a tax grab by governments is a fact, others can post a ton of links for this, I won't bother.

Do you believe in man made climate change, or global warming? Future sea level rises? I think you need to address these two questions before we can move on to policy issues, these are really moral and ethical issues and need to be addressed first. Also this is the second time you've addressed the people of Quebec as the "other" and I'm suspecting a bit of bigotry on your part, all the maritime provinces benefit from transfer payments too, yet you are focused on Quebec getting a "free ride".

Like I said, everybody uses fossil fuels because they have no choice, in part that choice was removed starting a couple of decades ago by disinformation, corruption and lobbying, it what we do moving forward that counts. We are talking about global problems and they impact Alberta's problems and will do so much more into the future. Donald Trump is a climate change denier because Putin told him to be, Russia is in your corner on this issue as well, so expect a lot of support from that quarter. The manufactured "climategate scandal" a couple of decades back was a result of Russian hacking and disinformation in conjunction with the oil industry, it set the cause of climate change and alternative energy sources back a decade at least.

I hope I've explained my logic to you, now start explaining your logic to me and start by answering a couple of basic questions honestly. Do you believe in man made climate change? Do you believe it will lead to sea level rise? I am a reasonable person who sees a bigger picture than you do and who has larger concerns than yours, which center around economic conditions in Alberta almost exclusively. Another name for tar sands is bitumen, as in bitumen coal and we've got lot's of that where I live too.

DIY

I appreciate the fairness of open dialogue

First things first...I totally agree that the climate is influenced by our burning of fossil fuels...and yes, I believe it has the potential to impact flooding..no question! I never suggested otherwise.

I also hate Trump as he has totally undone the the various institutions and the checks and balances they offer..( and trust me..hate is
Mild in the context I use it here)

As for your reference to Quebec, another metaphor perhaps..Quebec has received over 51% of all equalization payment since the program started...Alberta, receiving just .02% of the pie..in the past that was fine by me, but now that Alberta is suffering where is our support?...think of a parent with multiple children..that parent, continues to buy treats for one child with some sort of a disability...neglecting all but one...Think there might be some resentment? if ever a
time came when the other children needed something only to have the parent say.."Quit your whining!"
People are losing their homes and committing suicide here in Alberta, and rest of Canada chuckles....Part if my issue is that Quebec has had no problem accepting dirty Oil and Gas money all these years but now refuses to help Alberta to get it energy to market now that US is self sufficient

Climate change is problem, I think most on this board will acknowledge it as a
Massive problem. Instead, for some, its easier to use Alberta as a scapegoat thinking that it is up to Alberta energy companies to monitor peoples consumption of fossil fuels as opposed to people taking ownership of their own consumption.

Back to basic disclosure..this is directed at both you and Buck...I've asked this numerous times only to have the questions deflected...

****Does you family own a vehicle..What kind and how many in the family?
****How do you primarily heat your home?

(lets keep this fair and transparent)

I drive a tacoma, my wife drives a Subaru wagon..and Nat gas heats our home.