Public Health: Tips and information on how to prepare for the epidemic, avoid illness and protect our communities.

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Looks like we might have to order some mask making equipment or make it here in Canada, Donald again. It's bad enough the fucker is killing you, now it's our turn. See why I got a hard on for Donald?
Trump wants N95 mask exports to Canada halted, manufacturer says
They are doing the same to Germany too.

Just like our discussion about ventilators. It all ends with Trump doing exactly the wrong thing. Every time.

NATO, for example. Its a treaty of mutual defense. No reason we can't work within the framework to get supplies where they are needed when they are needed but nah. 'Murrica first.

and last.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
They are doing the same to Germany too.

Just like our discussion about ventilators. It all ends with Trump doing exactly the wrong thing. Every time.

NATO, for example. Its a treaty of mutual defense. No reason we can't work within the framework to get supplies where they are needed when they are needed but nah. 'Murrica first.

and last.
3M can either set up a shop here or forget selling respirators in the future. Doug Ford has the right attitude, though I don't like him, he's right and scouring China right now along with everybody else for manufacturing equipment, even if we have to bring the fucking Chinamen in with em and set them up on the spot in exchange for citizenship.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
3M can either set up a shop here or forget selling respirators in the future. Doug Ford has the right attitude, though I don't like him, he's right and scouring China right now along with everybody else for manufacturing equipment, even if we have to bring the fucking Chinamen in with em and set them up on the spot in exchange for citizenship.
Maybe you should offer your services as a DIY guru.

Think outside the box, man. Why not have a laser mounted on your nose that ablates all particles that come within 10 inches of the face?
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Maybe you should offer your services as a DIY guru.

Think outside the box, man. Why not have a laser mounted on your nose that ablates all particles that come within 10 inches of the face?
I'll mount a UV C tube vertically on a tin foil hat and sterilize everything around me for 2 meters, cataracts and skin cancer for free of course. I just need to figure out the MaH of the Li on batteries I need and right a charger for the backpack etc I'm working on it in the basement now, patent pending of course, so I can't let any details out.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
This 80 year old grandmother is on the job, one of the adults in the room.
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Speaker Nancy Pelosi: How We Go Forward Has To Have Transparency And Accountability
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
A small study that appears to support another small study from france, this study was conducted to higher standards, but there are issues. it is not peer reviewed. Much more reliable data and studies should be coming soon. It appears to be of some value, not a magic bullet, but it might keep a percentage of people off ventilators and allow quicker recoveries, freeing up hospital beds and ventilators.

Even if it is of limited value as a "cure", it appears to dramatically cut the number of people progressing to the point where they need to be put on a ventilator, this might save the lives of tens of thousands. If it works Trump will say he invented it in his basement lab and claim all the credit, of course his fans will be eager to eat that shit up, look for him to appear at the podium one day in a white lab coat.
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Results from a Controlled Trial of Hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19

APR 04, 2020 | KENNETH BENDER, PHARMD, MA

The initial results from a placebo-controlled trial of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 indicate that patients hospitalized with mild illness recovered more quickly with addition of the drug than with placebo at the start of a standard treatment. The results also suggest that hydroxychloroquine might convey some protection against the illness worsening.

Zhan Zhang, MD, of Renmin Hospital of Wuhan University, Wuhan, China, and colleagues reported results from 62 patients randomized to receive either placebo or hydroxychloroquine 200 mg twice daily for 5 days on admission in addition to standard treatment consisting of oxygen therapy, and unspecified regimens that could include antiviral and antibacterial agents, and immunoglobulin with or without corticosteroids.

"The data in this study revealed that after 5 days of hydroxychloroquine treatment, the symptoms of patients with COVID-19 were significantly relieved, manifesting as shorten(ing) in the recovery time for cough and fever," Zhang and colleagues reported.

"At the same time, a larger proportion of patients with pulmonary inflammat(ion) has been partially absorbed in the hydroxychloroquine treatment group, indicating the immune modulation and anti-inflammatory properties of hydroxychloroquine in non-malarial diseases," the researchers indicated.

The measure of time to clinical recovery was defined as return of normal body temperature and cough relief, maintained for 72 hours. A chest CT, obtained before starting the experimental regimen and 1 day after, on day 6 of hospitalization, was characterized as either exacerbated, unchanged, or improved—with 50% or more reduction in opacification classified as significantly improved.

In comparison to the 31 patients on placebo, the 31 receiving the hydroxychloroquine adjunct to standard treatment were reported to have significantly shorter average time to recover normal body temperature (2.2 vs 3.2 days, P = .0008) and time to cessation of cough (2.0 vs 3.1 days, P = .0016). A larger proportion of patients on hydroxychloroquine than placebo also demonstrated an improved chest CT (80.6% vs 54.8%), with 61.3% of the treatment group having significant improvement. In addition, the 4 patients in the trial who deteriorated from mild to severe acuity were all in the placebo group.


"Despite our small number of cases, the potential of hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of COVID-19 has been partially confirmed," Zhang and colleagues concluded.
"However, large-scale clinical and basic research is still needed to clarify its specific mechanism and to continuously optimize the treatment plan," they added.

In addition to the small size of this trial, the unspecified components of the hospital standard treatment and its variance between patients confounds assessment of the effect of hydroxychloroquine, particularly on whether it lessened severity given the small number of patients who experienced a worsening course. Also, excluding severe illness from study entry leaves the effect of hydroxychloroquine on severe symptoms an open question.

The trial results were posted on medRxiv, a non-peer reviewed site which expedites access to new research, often preceding peer reviewed publication. This report with 62 patients appears to be an initial phase, with the trial registration (unique identifier ChiCTR2000029559 on the Chinese Clinical Trial Registry) describing a target of 300 patients and the testing of a twice daily dose of 100mg as well as the 200mg.

The trial is 1 of 23 that are, or will be testing hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine against COVID-19 on the Chinese Clinical Trial Registry. Of these, 18 are randomized controlled trials of the agent for acute treatment, not in combination with an antibiotic.

There are currently 3 controlled trials outside of China listed at ClinicalTrials.gov, which will be assessing hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine for acute treatment of COVID-19, excluding trials for prophylaxis and in combination with azithromycin. The largest is a phase 3 placebo-controlled trial with anticipated enrollment of 1300 participants conducted by researchers at the University Hospital, Angers, France.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
When Fauci says it's effective, I'll believe it.
I also asked/informed my pharmacist wife about my wishful thinking about Trump's claims about his super cure and she unfortunalty informed me it is entirely bullshit. And even though I (no joke) completely am hopeful that there is some conspiracy that Trump actually knows what he is talking about and that there is a cure, he is full of shit and it is all bullshit.

Edit: Wife not wide.... that won't score me any points...
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I also asked/informed my pharmacist wide about my wishful thinking about Trump's claims about his super cure and she unfortunalty informed me it is entirely bullshit. And even though I (no joke) completely am hopeful that there is some conspiracy that Trump actually knows what he is talking about and that there is a cure, he is full of shit and it is all bullshit.
A lot of people want to believe that "the scientists" are either bumbling idiots or Machiavellian control freaks. But they aren't. That drug has been around for a long time and there are "interesting properties" that deserve study. Maybe a treatment can be found through studying it. But, really, if its' so effective that even a property development manager knows about it, the science community would have known about it first. To believe otherwise is to believe in cover-ups by the entire medical community. Some believe that. Some believe Sanders can enact his healthcare bill too. Some believe the earth is flat. Can't control what people believe.

Part of the problem is due to the differences in how people communicate. Scientists (good ones) speak with precision that can be maddening to people who are looking for certainty when there is none. It's impossible to prove a negative. For example, "Chloroquine is not effective" is not the kind of thing a scientist says because that is not possible to prove and maybe one person will have a good result out of thousands, who is to say? "Not shown to be effective" is the closest in science-speak, to the phrase "is not effective", in more common English that might called, "bullshit".

What pisses me off is that Trump diverted attention and resources away from promising and helpful solutions that are still too early for medical professionals to openly discuss with the man-baby and his staff. So, somebody was taken off promising research and tasked with testing Trump's shiny distraction.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
A lot of people want to believe that "the scientists" are either bumbling idiots or Machiavellian control freaks. But they aren't. That drug has been around for a long time and there are "interesting properties" that deserve study. Maybe a treatment can be found through studying it. But, really, if its' so effective that even a property development manager knows about it, the science community would have known about it first. To believe otherwise is to believe in cover-ups by the entire medical community. Some believe that. Some believe Sanders can enact his healthcare bill too. Some believe the earth is flat. Can't control what people believe.

Part of the problem is due to the differences in how people communicate. Scientists (good ones) speak with precision that can be maddening to people who are looking for certainty when there is none. It's impossible to prove a negative. For example, "Chloroquine is not effective" is not the kind of thing a scientist says because that is not possible to prove and maybe one person will have a good result out of thousands, who is to say? "Not shown to be effective" is the closest in science-speak, to the phrase "is not effective", in more common English that might called, "bullshit".

What pisses me off is that Trump diverted attention and resources away from promising and helpful solutions that are still too early for medical professionals to openly discuss with the man-baby and his staff. So, somebody was taken off promising research and tasked with testing Trump's shiny distraction.
I hate that I buy into hoping that somehow he has some 'divine' knowledge that whatever it is he is saying works, works.

But I am not a medical scientist and therefore don't know what I don't know, and am susceptible to hoping that he somehow has some secret knowledge of a 'cure'.

I truly hope/am afraid that he has that secret knowledge and this is not as scary of a time as it is. I know this is foolish, because of my wife, but it doesn't stop the irrational portion of me that wants to believe.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I hate that I buy into hoping that somehow he has some 'divine' knowledge that whatever it is he is saying works, works.

But I am not a medical scientist and therefore don't know what I don't know, and am susceptible to hoping that he somehow has some secret knowledge of a 'cure'.

I truly hope/am afraid that he has that secret knowledge and this is not as scary of a time as it is. I know this is foolish, because of my wife, but it doesn't stop the irrational portion of me that wants to believe.
We all find different ways to navigate unknowns. When I was a kid, I had an epiphany watching my baby brother in his car seat. It had a steering wheel on it. He turned the wheel this way and that as if he thought he was controlling the car. That's what false hope or bogus theories cause people to do. If the theory doesn't match fact, then using that theory to make decisions is just like turning a wheel that isn't attached to the steering mechanism. The results are random and confusing. Sometimes, though, the car does go where the wheel points and the theory becomes validated.

So, yeah, every day somebody posts stuff about vitamins, silver, marijuana, chloroquine and so forth. If it were easily seen that it affected coronavirus outcomes, I don't doubt that medical professionals would know about it already. But then again, 1 person's story is hard to ignore, and people want to believe, so, that's where the attention goes. Take this, inhale that, wear a mask, don't wear a mask and so forth. I have that image of my baby brother turning the steering wheel with deadly earnest in his eyes. Which is why I'll wait for Fauci to say it's effective before I believe it.

I started wearing a mask when going out. I didn't before but the CDC is recommending it. So I do. I don't know anything, I just know what I read and am mostly skeptical of what others tell me.
 

Dr.Amber Trichome

Well-Known Member
I am looking forward to the antibody finger prick test. That test will get people out and about. How they will monitor who has immunity and who doesn’t will be interesting. I read The UK was thinking about plastic wrist bracelets.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
When Fauci says it's effective, I'll believe it.
That will only happen with a proper clinical trial(s) involving large numbers of patients, no responsible scientist would say otherwise at this point. Caution is required, but it is being used by doctors in hospital settings and is just being used off label and empirically for right now.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I am looking forward to the antibody finger prick test. That test will get people out and about. How they will monitor who has immunity and who doesn’t will be interesting. I read The UK was thinking about plastic wrist bracelets.
Any idea how far off they are from making that commonly available?

I suspect that my wife and I already were exposed and came through it with minor symptoms and it would take a load off my mind if I could confirm that is true or false.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
That will only happen with a proper clinical trial(s) involving large numbers of patients, no responsible scientist would say otherwise at this point. Caution is required, but it is being used by doctors in hospital settings and is just being used off label and empirically for right now.
It's not caution but the need to be correct and precise in what is known that makes it difficult. Being wrong is easy. Right now, the determination is "no proven benefit". To you that means, "so there is a chance". Do go on about how great and promising it is and how we "need to be optimists". Carry on.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
That will only happen with a proper clinical trial(s) involving large numbers of patients, no responsible scientist would say otherwise at this point. Caution is required, but it is being used by doctors in hospital settings and is just being used off label and empirically for right now.
All skepticism aside, the CDC has a system where doctors can prescribe anti-malarials like chloroquine and enter results from their trials into a CDC database. It's not the same as a controlled clinical trial but if the signal of effectiveness is strong, a study like that can reveal it.
 

greg nr

Well-Known Member
Napalm found to kill corona virus in lab in 5 minutes

Sorry, I'm just getting punchy seeing all the claims of substance x killing the virus in a lab. But you get the idea of why a headline might not mean all that much.
 
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